Is Sansa still legally married and if so, to whom?

[WSmith84]

Yeah, the whole annulled by default thing makes no sense. Is there a time period on it? 'Quick, we've only got 10 days to do it, or we need to go through this wedding palavra again!' No. Basically, the writers wanted Sansa married to Ramsey, so they retconned. Margaery consumated with neither of her first two husbands, yet she was still considered their widow.

If the faith was the issue, LF would have mentioned it when trying to get Roose to go along with it. And there's no indication that Northerners don't recognise marriages of the Seven anyhow, given that Ned married in a Sept.

So, she's whatever the writers need her to be at a given moment.

[darndes]

I'm gonna say Ramsay is the legit marriage since we know it was consummated...Here's hoping she becomes a widow by the end of the season!

[DireWolfSpirit]

Currently she's a bigamist married to Tyrion Lannister and Ramsay Bolton. 

[Newstar]

Books: Non-consummation makes a marriage capable of being annulled but not automatically void. Annulment can be done by writing to the High Septon or a council of the Faith (whatever that is).

Book Sansa and Book Tyrion's marriage: Voidable, but not void. Sansa and Tyrion remain married until one of them dies or until they obtain an annulment on the grounds of non-consummation. An annulment doesn't seem to be in the cards anytime soon in the books.

Show: Inconsistent. Littlefinger explains in Season 5 that because Sansa and Tyrion didn't consummate the marriage, they are not husband and wife and she is free to remarry, suggesting that non-consummation automatically voids a marriage from the get-go. Roose accepts this explanation and Cersei doesn't bat an eye when informed of the marriage, suggesting that Littlefinger is correct.

However, Season 4 seems to contradict this: Sansa and Tyrion are frequently called each other's wife/husband by people who know that the marriage wasn't consummated (Tyrion calls Sansa his wife without qualifying it, LF calls Tyrion Sansa's husband without qualifying it). Furthermore, and more damning from a show consistency perspective, Lysa happily tells Sansa that once Tyrion is executed Sansa "will be free to marry Robin," suggesting that she's not currently free to remarry while Tyrion is still alive. Lysa tells Sansa this after Sansa has told her that the marriage wasn't consummated.

The writers say that they have been planning the Sansa/Ramsay plot since Season 2, and it's pretty annoying that this automatic annulment thing was the brightest idea they could come up with to make the marriage possible. A little effort would be nice.

For whatever it's worth, Sophie Turner was asked in a recent interview whether or not Sansa was officially married to Ramsay, and she didn't seem to know and claimed not to understand how Sansa could marry Ramsay while still married to Tyrion.

TV Sansa and TV Tyrion's marriage: Basically, TV Sansa and TV Tyrion are as married as they need to be to serve the plot. When there needed to be some reason for Lysa not to marry Sansa off to Robin immediately, Tyrion and Sansa were married, and when there needed to be some reason for Sansa to marry Ramsay, Tyrion and Sansa weren't married.

As for TV Sansa's marriage to TV Ramsay, either way she'll be a widow before long, I expect, so it hardly matters, unless he managed to get her pregnant and there was some question as to whether or not the child was born from a legitimate marriage.

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Although, if Sansa and Tyrion's storylines were to cross again, I wouldn't be too surprised if D&D decided that the marriage was a thing after all.

I wouldn't mind a "So, are we still married?"/"Fuck, who even knows anymore?"-type exchange, LOL.

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The last time she spoke of Tyrion, I think she said "They [Lannisters] married me to the imp" with a disgust on her face.

No. The last time she spoke of Tyrion she said, "Lord Tyrion was kind, he was gentle. He never touched me."

[Ser Quork]

8 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Per Littlefinger in 503, non-consummation means that Sansa's marriage is automatically void in the show, so she's legally married to Ramsay, and if he dies, she is a widow and married to nobody.

Said no legal system ever.  I'll say again, one of the worst instances of D&D's hand-waving inconvenient facts.

2 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Currently she's a bigamist married to Tyrion Lannister and Ramsay Bolton. 

This.

[ummester]

10 hours ago, permaximum said:

4. She will get along with Jon very well.

Don't know about the rest but there is obvious trouble brewing between Sansa and Jon. I don't think they will be on the same team come the end of this story.

[Kiwi]

10 hours ago, permaximum said:

There's no marriage to be nulled if there's no sex.

Alright let me comfort you a bit.

1. Yes, she will be married to Tyrion Lannister.

2. But she will still be a Stark too.

3. She will be the Queen in the North.

4. She will get along with Jon very well.

5. She won't ever make amoral decisions.

6. But she will be a "player" in the game.

7. She will be very smart too

8. Last but not least, she will kill Ramsay first, then Lord Baelish, then Freys and finally Lannisters.

Now that you said it, I think I need to lower my expectations of Sansa Q.Q Sounds unrealistic as hell and too happy-go-lucky for GoT.

[Colonel Green]

13 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Also, on 'automatically' - wouldn't they need some sort of authority figure to actually confirm that there was no consummation?

You would think so, wouldn't you?  But much like Moat Cailin is either an unstoppable bottleneck or an open door depending on what the plot requires, the legal system works however it has to to facilitate the plot.

6 hours ago, Newstar said:

For whatever it's worth, Sophie Turner was asked in a recent interview whether or not Sansa was officially married to Ramsay, and she didn't seem to know and claimed not to understand how Sansa could marry Ramsay while still married to Tyrion.

Sophie, as with many of the other actors, often indicate they aren't all that familiar with many of the details, particularly for scenes they aren't in.  In this case, the handwave for Sansa being able to marry Ramsay was in a scene where Sansa wasn't present; considering how little the show put into justifying it, it doesn't really surprise me that the actors don't recall the details.

[Nerevanin]

I'd say Ramsay because 1) the marriage was consummated, 2) she married him out of her will, while when it comes to Tyrion the marriage was not consummated and she was forced to do it. But, the truth is, she will be considered to be the wife of whoever it suits the people. The Lannisters (and Tyrion) would say that she is the wife of Tyrion so they can claim on the North. The Northeners will say that she is the wife of Ramsay (especially after Ramsay bites the dust) so the Lannisters don't have any claim on the North. Now, that Sansa is not a virgin anymore, it will be pretty hard to prove that her marriage with Tyrion was never consummated. As she wasn't dragged screaming into the sept in KL, people might claim that she married Tyrion out of her free will, that would be hard to prove as well. So I'd say that the last thing that remains is Sansa's faith. She doesn't seem to be very religious both in the books and in the show. She knows something from the faith of Seven as demonstrated when she sings the hymn or something in Season 2 during the battle of blackwater. Catelyn followed the Seven and there was a sept in Winterfell so it makes sense that Sansa knows something. Later, in season 3/4, she was seen in KL praying in godswood, although she might be faking it because she knows that Jaime and Brienne are looking at her. So where's the truth? I suppose that she can claim that whichever of the marriages was done before gods that she does not worship because she was forced to it and so it may be seen as invalid.

[Aedam Targaryen]

7 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Said no legal system ever.  I'll say again, one of the worst instances of D&D's hand-waving inconvenient facts.

To be fair, even if Littlefinger knew the annulment had to be approved of by a council of Faith, he knows that not being consummated is almost an automatic annulment, and if they petitioned the Faith, they would most likely be given the annulment.

Unfortunately, he also knows it would be absolutely crazy to petition the Faith in King's Landing about Sansa's marriage situation because she is a wanted fugitive and the entire plan of this wedding could be considered treason by the crown. 

So I see how it could be considered hand waving by D&D, but it also could have been two older politically seasoned men having a conversation and leaving some obvious things left unsaid out loud. If everything goes the way Roose wanted, he would have control of the North, no longer be answering to the crown, and this little wrinkle in his plan could be washed away.

(This is definitely the first time I've stuck up for D&D here. It feels weird. Haha!) 

And to the OP, it depends on who you ask. 

[Ser Quork]

15 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

To be fair, even if Littlefinger knew the annulment had to be approved of by a council of Faith, he knows that not being consummated is almost an automatic annulment, and if they petitioned the Faith, they would most likely be given the annulment.

Unfortunately, he also knows it would be absolutely crazy to petition the Faith in King's Landing about Sansa's marriage situation because she is a wanted fugitive and the entire plan of this wedding could be considered treason by the crown. 

So I see how it could be considered hand waving by D&D, but it also could have been two older politically seasoned men having a conversation and leaving some obvious things left unsaid out loud. If everything goes the way Roose wanted, he would have control of the North, no longer be answering to the crown, and this little wrinkle in his plan could be washed away.

(This is definitely the first time I've stuck up for D&D here. It feels weird. Haha!) 

And to the OP, it depends on who you ask. 

But it wouldn't.  Because the marriage isn't "automatically" annulled, Sansa is a bigamist and there is now no way for her to prove (without Tyrion's testimony) that it was unconsummated because she is no longer a virgin.  Therefore, even if it had "all gone well", any children of hers and Ramay's would be illegitimate.  Who can legitimise a bastard?  A king.  Whoopsie - Roose Bolton is now no longer on terms with KL to get such legitimisation.  Hand-waving causing butterflies and these grow to be dragons.

[Aedam Targaryen]

Just now, Ser Quork said:

But it wouldn't.  Because the marriage isn't "automatically" annulled, Sansa is a bigamist and there is now no way for her to prove (without Tyrion's testimony) that it was unconsummated because she is no longer a virgin.  Therefore, even if it had "all gone well", any children of hers and Ramay's would be illegitimate.  Who can legitimise a bastard?  A king.  Whoopsie - Roose Bolton is now no longer on terms with KL to get such legitimisation.  Hand-waving causing butterflies and these grow to be dragons.

I don't think the marriage is automatically annulled... I think if one person asks the Faith for an annulment, claims the marriage wasn't consummated, the other member isn't around to deny it, it's as simple as stamping the paper. I don't think the Faith would deny an annulment in this situation, but of course I don't know.

Roose Bolton is no longer on good terms with KL because he chose to directly go against their wishes. He never really talks about his end game, but if you are screwing over the crown to gain power in the North, it doesn't seem like you'll be back on good terms with the crown anytime soon. The more he consolidates his power in the North, the less he cares what the crown thinks or wants. 

If you're ruling the North, and you recently stabbed the crown in the back, you no longer do what the crown asks, whether you call yourself by this title or not, you're essentially King of the North. Then he could annul and legitimize anything he wanted. 

But, even if what I argue is accurate, it certainly doesn't mean D&D thought this all the way through... their hand waving might have just gotten lucky. Haha! 

[a dragon is still a dragon]

Ramsay other marriage was not consummated so means naff all. She is a Bolton at the moment

[HTN02]

i was always assuming that while a marriage in the eyes of the 7 don't require the consummation, while a old gods marriage should be consumed, or it isn't valid.... like islam and christianity have different rules for marriage in RL to.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

I may be wrong but as I'm understand the show logic regarding this issue: According to the Faith a marriage not consummated can be annulled at recuest of one of the parts...According to the Old Gods law (and again this is only an assumption) an un consummated is also void but in this case we have to assume that a petition of nullity was made on behalf of Sansa...To whom...who knows, maybe to the weirdwood tree or some kind of religious ceremony.

 

PS: Some say that when it come to Ramsey everybody lose 100 IQ points...In the same way why is it that when it come to Sansa everybody, and the moderators more than anyone, get extremely sensitive?.  We're talking about a second tier character in a fictional world, why is everybody has to be so careful regarding Sansa?

[Rhollo]

It's very dubious, the whole "unconsumated marriages can just be ignored" reasoning is pretty weak imho.

 

They should have come up with something better, if they make up their own rules for the show.

For example, since Tyrion is sentenced to death and fleeing, he is declared an outlaw, which makes him also invalid to be a husband, since marriage it is basically a legal contract.

I imagine if a married man were to joins the night's watch, his wife practically becomes a "widow" and is free to marry again, too.

[RedShirt47]

Tyrion was already married, Tywin had it annulled by a Septon (not the High Septon though so not sure if that counts).
Tyrion is an outcast and sentenced to death. So I doubt anyone will consider him a legitimate husband.
The marriage was against their will, neither would argue in court they wanted it.
The marriage was never consummated.

I don't see how Tyrion and Sansa could be considered married by anyone.

[Ser Quork]

6 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

Tyrion was already married, Tywin had it annulled by a Septon (not the High Septon though so not sure if that counts).
Tyrion is an outcast and sentenced to death. So I doubt anyone will consider him a legitimate husband.
The marriage was against their will, neither would argue in court they wanted it.
The marriage was never consummated.

I don't see how Tyrion and Sansa could be considered married by anyone.

 

Tyrion being an outcast/sentenced to death is irrelevant (unless there's a decree stating otherwise - there isn't).

Marriage being coerced is only relevant as part of a petition for annulment.  Ditto for non-consummation.

Nothing is "automatic".

[Tianzi]

On 8.06.2016 at 8:33 AM, Newstar said:

I wouldn't mind a "So, are we still married?"/"Fuck, who even knows anymore?"-type exchange, LOL.

That would be some meta awareness indeed...

On 8.06.2016 at 8:33 AM, Newstar said:

However, Season 4 seems to contradict this: Sansa and Tyrion are frequently called each other's wife/husband by people who know that the marriage wasn't consummated (Tyrion calls Sansa his wife without qualifying it, LF calls Tyrion Sansa's husband without qualifying it). Furthermore, and more damning from a show consistency perspective, Lysa happily tells Sansa that once Tyrion is executed Sansa "will be free to marry Robin," suggesting that she's not currently free to remarry while Tyrion is still alive. Lysa tells Sansa this after Sansa has told her that the marriage wasn't consummated.

On that note, Cersei and Marg also agree that Joffrey was Marg husband.

So, I'd go with a plothole. Or, charitably, that the marriage with Tyrion wasn't annulled, automatically or not, before Ramsay, but after Ramsay happened, he has stronger claim because of consummation and because he is was in physical possesion of Sansa. That's why I'm more interested of Sansa's status after Ramsay's death than now. (though if LF married her off before despite Tyrion, she will be still still marriagable, I guess).

[Newstar]

TV:

The whole issue might be academic if Sansa doesn't want to remarry, which seems pretty likely given what happened with Ramsay: she's unlikely to have much interest in sex after what Ramsay did, particularly if he mutilated her genitals as some fans have speculated.

It's also academic if both Tyrion and Ramsay die before she does.

Books:

Tyrion and Sansa are very much validly married, although it can be annulled. I have no doubt GRRM did this to give Sansa a shield against being married off immediately. All the "it doesn't count because they were forced/Tyrion's a traitor/it was in a sept, etc." are missing the point, I think. GRRM wants and needs the marriage to be valid for plot purposes, so it is. D&D wanted and needed the marriage to be invalid for plot purposes, so it isn't (at least for now). Big difference.

As for Book Sansa, we know that she has no interest in remarrying--"not now, perhaps not ever"--and that she does not want to be married off for her claim. She laments that "no one will ever marry [her] for love." In the TWOW chapter, she seems almost comforted by the fact that she can't be married off while Tyrion still lives. And this is Book Sansa, who hasn't been raped multiple times and terrorized by a psychopath. I could see Book Sansa strenuously resisting another political marriage and not remarrying for a very long time until she can marry for love, by which point Tyrion may very well be out of the picture in any event.