50 Dead, Dozens Wounded in Orlando Club Shooting

[Commodore]

Politico has a nice rundown of the coverup/censorship efforts by the Obama administration and the Orlando PD

http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/florida-playbook/2016/06/murphy-chases-black-vote-with-obama-ad-expert-orlando-police-failed-at-pulse-sen-evers-targets-voters-with-ar-15-giveaway-jolly-poll-im-beating-crist-214891

Quote

 

MISDIRECTION -- The government’s decision to capriciously redact public information is insulting on its face (meanwhile FBI parcels out narrative-building tidbits to favored news orgs). More importantly, the secrecy is dangerous. From the outset, the Orlando Police Department’s response to the June 12 shooting raised questions about either the protocols or judgment calls. Since a mass shooting will happen again, the public needs to know if there was a breakdown of procedure, of leadership or both. Releasing a redacted transcript of Mateen calling and ranting only goes so far. And editing his comments (no matter how abhorrent or insane) creates a political diversion to keep the public from getting the info it really needs:

-- ALL THE 911 CALLS: There could have been as many 300 people in Pulse. How many called 911? What did they say? When did they start and stop calling? The answers will help fill out the picture of what went wrong (if anything) in the disaster response.

-- POLICE RADIO TRAFFIC: What were police saying and doing? Who gave what orders and when? Here’s why it’s important: police officers MADE IT INSIDE THE CLUB. But then they RETREATED. Why? Who gave that order? What was the risk-assessment math? THREE HOURS AFTER the shooting started, 49 people were dead along with the shooter; 53 wounded. Every second counted. Mateen had HOURS. The wounded didn’t.

PROTOCOL FAIL? – After the 1999 Columbine High School massacre, law enforcement realized active shooters have to be stopped quickly, not bargained with or given time. That realization gave rise to what’s called the Active Shooter response protocol, which basically says that once two police officers are on scene at an active shooting, they should go get the shooter, said Chris Grollneck, a former police officer and expert on the subject. Police everywhere are trained in it. By 2:15 a.m. June 12 – 13 minutes after Orlando PD issued an All Call Major Alert -- 11 officers were at the club after Mateen had exchanged gunfire with one off-duty cop working Pulse security, according to this excellent Miami Herald timeline. Mateen was, by definition, an active shooter. Yet somehow, officers either didn’t pursue Mateen into the club or they were pulled out.

PROTOCOL SWITCH? – Police have explained that they switched from an active-shooter protocol to dealing with a barricaded person, so they decided not to pursue. Grollneck says that makes no sense because the shooter had already shown he’s a homicidal maniac who would systematically kill. In the end, SWAT stormed the building anyway. But it was three hours later. And some people probably bled out while waiting for help. Grollneck said it should have ended much earlier:

--“If you have 300 people inside a club. It’s dark. There’s loud music and you can’t see but you know there’s people screaming and somebody shooting, you follow the muzzle flash until you hit that person and make the muzzle flash stop –at the peril of your own risk. Being a policeman is a dangerous job. That’s why they give policemen guns. Everybody inside that club did not have a gun. When the police were ordered out, no one had a gun except the gunman. And he then systematically shot people … while making phone calls and posting to social media and sending text messages.”

LEADERSHIP ‘FAILED’ – Asked what the 911 calls from the patrons and the police radio traffic would tell us, Grollneck said: “It will tell you the leadership of the Orlando Police Department failed the people inside the club.” Q: do you think that’s why Orlando is not releasing the info? Grollneck: “I do. I think Orlando Police Department’s Swat Team is one of the best in the country and the patrol is one of the best-trained in the country… this was risk-adversity by supervisors. And I think it was career apprehension.”

THE BOMB TALK – The blood hadn’t yet dried on that hot Sunday morning when politicians began praising Orlando PD. And quickly the department and the politicians began explaining that police thought Mateen had explosives. But that might be an after-the-fact justification (we don’t know because this info has not been made public). Initially, some officers were actually following protocol and were in the club. Also, Grollneck said, the FBI’s “Coming Storm” training video for police released last year doesn’t tell officers to refrain from going after an active shooter if they think there’s a bomb. Grollneck one last time:

-- “Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. There’s reports the guy has a suicide vest or possible bombs. Now we know it’s a terrorist attack … what’s the No. 1 threat from a terrorist? It’s a weapon of mass destruction, a WMD. So if you think a terrorist is there with a WMD in a nightclub with 300 people, do you not go in to give him time to activate the bomb that could kill 100,000 people outside? Or do you go in and take the chance immediately at the risk of 300 people?”

 

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

In a different vein, I wanted to post this link to a beautiful reflection by the Episcopalian Bishop of Pittsburgh.

For me, this particular quote was moving and relevant, but it is all worth a read:

"We would clearly see the various ideologies of hate for what they are, a web of lies that pit the strong against the weak and tear apart human lives in the false quest for an Eden of our own making. We would see little difference between the extremes of Islamic fundamentalism in many countries, or the current temptations to demagoguery in our own.

We would see the renewed debates about gun control, constitutional rights, immigration, and the like, perhaps as addressing (for good or ill) a set of current problems, but not getting at The Problem.

We would understand that The Problem is this: We fear our own death more than we love the lives of others. [emph added]

Because we fear, we put our sins on someone else's head. We push them away. We kill in the hope we will finally find peace." 

[Jace, Extat]

3 hours ago, Commodore said:

Politico has a nice rundown of the coverup/censorship efforts by the Obama administration and the Orlando PD

http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/florida-playbook/2016/06/murphy-chases-black-vote-with-obama-ad-expert-orlando-police-failed-at-pulse-sen-evers-targets-voters-with-ar-15-giveaway-jolly-poll-im-beating-crist-214891

 

The police have no obligation to save the lives of citizens or even intervene at all in a dangerous situation. There have been like a dozen court rulings on this. I think Castle Rock v Gonzalez was the latest, but if I recall correctly that was specifically about if the police had a duty to intervene if the victim has a restraining order.

But no, the police are not compelled to go after a gunman.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

1 hour ago, Commodore said:

Politico has a nice rundown of the coverup/censorship efforts by the Obama administration and the Orlando PD

http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/florida-playbook/2016/06/murphy-chases-black-vote-with-obama-ad-expert-orlando-police-failed-at-pulse-sen-evers-targets-voters-with-ar-15-giveaway-jolly-poll-im-beating-crist-214891

 

The author doesn't seem to have all the facts.  Off duty police got in a firefight with Mateen, forcing him to retreat to the bathroom.  Once there, he began making phone calls to the police/media.  That is when it transformed into a barricade/hostage situation.  The active shooter protocols are no longer in effect because he was no longer an active shooter.

[TerraPrime]

It's so heart-warming to see all the conservatives now so engaged about the welfare of LBGT people after 49 were gunned down at a night club. All this talk about guns, their capacities, the distinctions between one type of gun versus another, which gun can kill more and in less time, the police response protocols, etc., are so on topic and so relevant to the issue. I also love it that the deaths of 49 LBGT people, many of whom Latino/Latina, can help fuel their Islamaphobia. Because if I want to see the deaths of my people benefit anyone, it'd be to benefit the xenophobic racist fuckwads of the right wing hate machine. I appreciate the pause they are taking on their hate program to offer condolences, prayers, and thoughts, to the victims. It is so nice of them. Bless their dark, hate-filled hearts. I will definitely remember this gesture of goodwill next time they dehumanize my transgender friends, or oppose equal treatment of gay people.

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, Commodore said:

Politico has a nice rundown of the coverup/censorship efforts by the Obama administration and the Orlando PD

http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/florida-playbook/2016/06/murphy-chases-black-vote-with-obama-ad-expert-orlando-police-failed-at-pulse-sen-evers-targets-voters-with-ar-15-giveaway-jolly-poll-im-beating-crist-214891

 

A terrorist with a WMD wouldn't really need to shoot up a club first. That part seems pure rhetoric.

[Shryke]

56 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

It's so heart-warming to see all the conservatives now so engaged about the welfare of LBGT people after 49 were gunned down at a night club. All this talk about guns, their capacities, the distinctions between one type of gun versus another, which gun can kill more and in less time, the police response protocols, etc., are so on topic and so relevant to the issue. I also love it that the deaths of 49 LBGT people, many of whom Latino/Latina, can help fuel their Islamaphobia. Because if I want to see the deaths of my people benefit anyone, it'd be to benefit the xenophobic racist fuckwads of the right wing hate machine. I appreciate the pause they are taking on their hate program to offer condolences, prayers, and thoughts, to the victims. It is so nice of them. Bless their dark, hate-filled hearts. I will definitely remember this gesture of goodwill next time they dehumanize my transgender friends, or oppose equal treatment of gay people.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had he shot 100 transgender people using the "wrong" bathroom.

[S John]

2 hours ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

The police have no obligation to save the lives of citizens or even intervene at all in a dangerous situation. There have been like a dozen court rulings on this. I think Castle Rock v Gonzalez was the latest, but if I recall correctly that was specifically about if the police had a duty to intervene if the victim has a restraining order.

But no, the police are not compelled to go after a gunman.

Really?  I'd suggest cops who feel that way find a new line of work.  

[Shryke]

6 minutes ago, S John said:

Really?  I'd suggest cops who feel that way find a new line of work.  

Yes really. Kinda. The specifics are less inflammatory and make sense once you read the decision, but it sounds good in catchy headlines and op-eds to make it seem horrible.

Basically the police do not owe you, like specifically you as in a specific person, protection and so are not legally liable should crime occur to you. Or something close enough to that in lawyer speak that maintains the same general idea. The police do owe protection to the public at large though.

What is means is that you can't sur the policy because they didn't stop someone from, say, robbing you without other circumstances that would show why they owed you specifically protection.

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, Shryke said:

Yes really. Kinda. The specifics are less inflammatory and make sense once you read the decision, but it sounds good in catchy headlines and op-eds to make it seem horrible.

Basically the police do not owe you, like specifically you as in a specific person, protection and so are not legally liable should crime occur to you. Or something close enough to that in lawyer speak that maintains the same general idea. The police do owe protection to the public at large though.

What is means is that you can't sur the policy because they didn't stop someone from, say, robbing you without other circumstances that would show why they owed you specifically protection.

Hey! Don't shoot down my inflammatory remarks like that!

[Mexal]

All four of the Senate amendments having to do with gun control failed today. No surprise.

[Boris the Blade]

3 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

It's so heart-warming to see all the conservatives now so engaged about the welfare of LBGT people after 49 were gunned down at a night club. All this talk about guns, their capacities, the distinctions between one type of gun versus another, which gun can kill more and in less time, the police response protocols, etc., are so on topic and so relevant to the issue. I also love it that the deaths of 49 LBGT people, many of whom Latino/Latina, can help fuel their Islamaphobia. Because if I want to see the deaths of my people benefit anyone, it'd be to benefit the xenophobic racist fuckwads of the right wing hate machine. I appreciate the pause they are taking on their hate program to offer condolences, prayers, and thoughts, to the victims. It is so nice of them. Bless their dark, hate-filled hearts. I will definitely remember this gesture of goodwill next time they dehumanize my transgender friends, or oppose equal treatment of gay people.

They only care about the LGBTQIA community when they are killed by muslims so they can further their bigoted war mongering agenda. Notice how they don't even bring up the potential massacre that could have happened in California, or that person that put a bomb in a Target bathroom.

 

[Squab]

I figure the Mystical Avoidance Dance has failed once again now that we have moved to the Moral Equivalence Shuffle.  I missed the No True Scotsman Headbang but then again, I never liked heavy metal enough to care.

The Moral Equivalence Shuffle moves (or shuffles) your attention from the current tragedy to a claimed equivalent.  In this artform, the size of the original argument becomes unwieldy and too general to yield to the specifics required in an analysis of something so complex.  And this is the aim, along with distraction.  Definitely things are terrible elsewhere but when the Shuffle surfaces, it suggests an effort to conceal or halt the analysis and dissection of the original tragedy for a truth to which it treads too closely.

There are many many strides to be taken throughout the world today to provide the support, inclusion and even rights deserved of the LGBTQIAPK community.  See below a list of countries we can all boycott, and push our politicians to boycott, until they remove laws ascribing the death penalty for being homosexual:

• Yemen
• Iran
• Mauritania
• Nigeria
• Qatar
• Saudi Arabia
• Afghanistan
• Somalia
• Sudan
• United Arab Emirates

source

[JGP]

45 minutes ago, Squab said:

There are many many strides to be taken throughout the world today to provide the support, inclusion and even rights deserved of the LGBTQIAPK community. 

Come on, who keeps moving these goalposts. I know what five of those are.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

7 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Come on, who keeps moving these goalposts. I know what five of those are.

Intersex, asexual, pansexual (?), and I'm stumped on the k.

[Dr. Pepper]

10 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Come on, who keeps moving these goalposts. I know what five of those are.

I'm almost afraid to respond to this because it's often the case that when someone questions a comment that mocks the LGBTQ+ acronym, the response will be something along the lines of "shut up and take a joke".  Which sort of underlines the reasons that more groups need to be under the safety of the queer umbrella.

In other words, maybe don't make 'jokes' like this, especially in a thread that is about a horrible and fatal attack on queer people.  

[JGP]

[brows raise]

I understand that sensitivity is heightened so misunderstandings happen, but I'm not making mock or joke. 

I really don't know what those last four letters stand for and want to have it right.

edit Instead of trying to keep up with the ever shifting acronym, were I to use Sexual Minority, would that be offensive?  

[Dr. Pepper]

3 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

[brows raise]

I understand that sensitivity is heightened so misunderstandings happen, but I'm not making mock or joke. 

I really don't know what those last four letters stand for and want to have it right.

edit Instead of trying to keep up with the ever shifting acronym, were I to use Sexual Minority, would that be offensive?  

You may not have intended to make mock or joke, but that's exactly what it looked like.  So often, soooo very often, people will excuse their own bigotry with something like, "how am I ever going to learn {to stop being a bigot} if y'all can't even figure out the acronym."  There's a link upthread to a speech given by the Utah governor where he sort of brings this up as a reason why it took him so long to think of the LGBTQ+ community as human.  So when you see an extended acronym and your response is something along the lines of "geez, moving goal posts how am I to learn", it sounds exactly like those mocking jokes coming from people who use their confusion over the acronym to excuse their own bigotry.  

And no, I'm not saying you're a bigot.  I'm saying that your response to not knowing the acronym that was used was insensitive considering the history of responses like the one you gave.  It's perfectly acceptable to simply ask, "What do the rest of those letters mean".  It's also perfectly acceptable to simply use LGBT in casual conversation (you can add a Q or a + to be even more inclusive), no reason for something like "sexual minority".  

[S John]

I mean... LGBTQIAPK is kind of a ridiculously cumbersome acronym.  I really do not agree that making a joke about that is out of line.

[Dr. Pepper]

9 minutes ago, S John said:

I mean... LGBTQIAPK is kind of a ridiculously cumbersome acronym.  I really do not agree that making a joke about that is out of line.

Maybe there are some spaces or contexts where it wouldn't come off as so insensitive.  In a thread about dozens of dead in the queer community, suggesting that the goal posts are being moved because of an expanded acronym is pretty insensitive.  The existence of queer people and their desire to not be killed or discriminated against isn't really a joke.