Would have Renly spared Joffrey, Myrcella & Tommen?

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

4. Renly as king would be a disaster. The Tyrells are the Lannisters with goof PR. Renly is charming but also an idiot. He had the support of the Stormlands because he is thier lord, and he had the Tyrells because he married into them and was about to become thier puppet king.

So how is he an idiot here? He got pretty much all his bannermen to follow him. He cemented an alliance with the most powerful player (the Reach) in the game with a marriage. His force was more powerful than every other kings' combined and he was starving Joff's capital while the opposing armies battered each other. What exactly here is portraying him as a puppet anyway? He was the one who was trying to marry Marg to Robert to get Cersei out of the picture. Who is forcing him to do that? It's not as if his influence is going to grow any more than where it's at/

His time as Master of Law saw the rise of corrupt men such as Janos Slynt rise in the ranks of the City Watch.

Slynt was in the City Watch and almost certainly appointed as its leader well before Renly got to be Master of Laws. He's 21 FFS. He's been master of laws for, what, 3-4 years at the absolute most? Jon Arryn appointed Slynt anwyay, and Robert just waved his hand when Arryn wanted to give him the boot. What's Renly supposed to do about corruption when the King's hand and surrogate father gets told to STFU?

He has no grasp of the working powers (remmeber when he counts the Dornish and Stannis on his side? The Dornish sides with the hated Lannisters over him, and Stannis had already sent out a decleration proclaiming himself as king).

Renly married Marg before Stannis sent out anything. Stannis hadn't declared himself king to Renly until right before he besieged Storm's End. In the chapter where Stannis dictates his kingship letter, Davos notes that Renly had already crowned himself and that Stannis was pissed off because the Florents declared for Renly. The Dornish remained mum. Assuming they'd join a war against the Lannisters wasn't a huge stretch. It took a betrothal FROM the Lannisters to get Dorne to do nothing.

Comparing him to Joffrey? Joffrey was just cruel. He still knew how to play the political game and he still knew how to pretend to be normal. After the Blackwater he acts like prince charming and works good PR at the throne room, when he breaks off with Sansa and promises to marry Marg. The only thing you can say about him is that he is most likely to be a dick and harm his wife.

Seriously? That was all his mother, the Tyrells, and Tywin. He *is* a dick. He starved the population of KL. He show crossbows at peasants. Joff was a sociopath.

Politically there is little to point to him not being able to rule just as well as Renly.

Other than Joffrey being a sociopathic moron who's 13 and has Cersei guiding him? Renly built a huge, powerful coalition through politics, marriage, and personal charisma.

Stannis on the other hand has far more under his belt already. Just look at who is following him to war from the start - the former Targ loyalists, who have every reason to hate his guts for thier loss of power and prestige. And yet they follow him to the end of the world.

Stannis musters 5K followers and challenges his brother because of a religious vision. His own in-laws side with Renly. He doesn't get any support from outside his direct vassals. He sat around and did nothing while his brother was murdered. He didn't communicate with his younger brother about what he'd found. Renly was trying to save himself from the Lannisters from the second Ned walked out of Robert's bedroom. He straight up says it to Ned and then Catelyn. Now the loyalty of them men who follow him is amazing. I can't undermine that. Those who actually follow him will follow him to the end of the earth/planetos. However those 1500 or so who followed him are outnumbered 6x over by those who bent the knee at Blackwater alone. Why didn't they fight to the death?!?!

And this is after his policy of closing the whorehouses on his island, yes? That bit that Renly makes fun of in AGOT. We have 15 years of Stannis' rule over the worst that Westeros had to offer, and he shows us that he can make his worse enemies into his biggest supporters. Compare this to Renly, who went to fight the Lannisters and ended up with the Dornish of all people siding against him. He offered Robb Stark nothing, just threatened him with violence if he does not submit right away. He had no plan for the Vale or the Iron Islands, he fully expected the Reach's might to make everyone bow in fear. Instead everyone ignored him or sided against him.

Really? He makes his worst enemies his most ardent supporters? That's why both Paxter Redwyne and Mace Tyrell flock to his banner right? That's why the Lannisters allowed him to retain possession of DS, SE, and his head. Oh wait, he was attainted and his castles besieged. The Dornish didn't fight him one bit. Please point out where they did anything, other than mass their troops in the passes which they continue to do now. His host would have absolutely blown over everyone. He offered Robb a neat way out of crowning himself in a manner which guaranteed half of his kingdom would be razed and dragged into a war he couldn't win. The Vale was neutral. If they won't entreat with their own family, why bother doing anything. They are not a threat. The Iron Islands were no threat to Renly. He had Redwyne's fleet in reserve. They can be dealt with later. By far the most pressing issue was dealing with the Lannisters, and Robb was doing that for him.

Alright now I have some time to break this down. Answers in bold

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

It depends on what Mace Tyrell wants , which depends on what Tarly , Redwyne and Hightower wants. That means all the Lannisters ' head would be on a pike .

[Nyrhex]

11 hours ago, Minsc said:

1. Slynt took charge of the City Watch following Robert's Rebellion and I doubt Robert appointed seven year old Renly to be Master of Law at that time.  Moreover, Robert was the one that didn't want to do anything about Slynt and when the king has made a decision the Master of Law cannot go against his will. 

2. Nor is there anything pointing to him becoming a Tyrell puppet with him being the one clearly in charge in all the encounters that we see.

3. Aka his bannermen meaning the same people that you dismissed for Renly.  Moreover, Stannis also has had some weird cult spring up around him because of a magic performing witch.  Nor have they all followed him to the end of the world instead many have abandoned him that is why his army now is smaller than it was at the start of Clash. 

4. The Dornish aren't supporting Stannis either.

5. You are confusing Renly with Stannis.  Renly offered Robb the means to save face.

1. Cut the shit. Even if Renly can't or won't overturn Robert's decision about Slynt, the city watch is rotten to the core and we see Renly doing fuck all about it. We see him do fuck all about anything. The Black Cells are a bad joke that Varys freely exploits as well. 

2. He was plotting to replace Cersei with Marg back in AGOT. There is no tangible benefit for himself from this aside from the fact that it pleases his lover and his family. Renly does not crown himself, Mace does. Renly is pushed to claim the kingship by the Tyrells, he is backed by the Tyrells, and between Renly's lack of interest in actual rule and the Tyrells' clear motives, it's clear that Renly is acting in the Tyrells' best interests first.

3. His bannermen are not the historic bannermen of his house, whom he inherited and have cultural and family ties to. The fact that they all support him (and Sunglass being the only fanatic that refuses to follow a follower of a different faith), while Renly has a bunch of lords either play both or more camps or outright stay home, tells us more than "it's just bannermen following thier lord". And aside of Celtiger who was stuck on the Blackwater and saved his men by going over, the lords of the Narrow Sea, and a few of others from the Stormlands and Reach remain loyal. The size of the army was dictated by the transport capacity of Saan's ships, we know from Kem (Second Sons) that thousands were left stranded, and that at the ships only those still with arms were allowed on the ships, and so Kem (who dropped his spear) was not allowed on.

4. The Dornish were not counted by Stannis as supporting him, because he never made that assumption like Renly. Not sure how you missed that point. Renly assumed from the start that everyone would drop down to lick his boots because he has the largest army thanks to his marriage to the Tyrells. Instead everyone ignored him or turned against him. The Dornish hosts sent to the mountain passes were meant against the Marcher lords while Renly lived, forcing them to keep thier strength mainly at home. Meaning that they had actively taken military action against Renly, rather than joined him.

5. No, Renly was pretty clear to Catelyn that she is to remain to witness him destroying a rebel (Stannis), and so she is to return to her son with this knowledge of Renly's power. Robb can call himself KITN, but Renly insisted on Robb paying him homage and tax and service. Robb sent Catelyn there to offer Renly an alliance, and Renly flatly refused to recognise Robb as an equal. Again, the point here is Renly relying 100% on military might to bully everyone to bend the knee. He offered Robb fuck all in terms of saving face. Calling himself the KITN and fighting Renly's war is not the same as allowing Robb to back out of independence.

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Alright now I have some time to break this down. Answers in bold

Due to similariy I refer you to the above reply. If there is anything else you think I did not adress, please point it out.

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

1. Cut the shit. Even if Renly can't or won't overturn Robert's decision about Slynt, the city watch is rotten to the core and we see Renly doing fuck all about it. We see him do fuck all about anything. The Black Cells are a bad joke that Varys freely exploits as well. 

2. He was plotting to replace Cersei with Marg back in AGOT. There is no tangible benefit for himself from this aside from the fact that it pleases his lover and his family. Renly does not crown himself, Mace does. Renly is pushed to claim the kingship by the Tyrells, he is backed by the Tyrells, and between Renly's lack of interest in actual rule and the Tyrells' clear motives, it's clear that Renly is acting in the Tyrells' best interests first.

3. His bannermen are not the historic bannermen of his house, whom he inherited and have cultural and family ties to. The fact that they all support him (and Sunglass being the only fanatic that refuses to follow a follower of a different faith), while Renly has a bunch of lords either play both or more camps or outright stay home, tells us more than "it's just bannermen following thier lord". And aside of Celtiger who was stuck on the Blackwater and saved his men by going over, the lords of the Narrow Sea, and a few of others from the Stormlands and Reach remain loyal. The size of the army was dictated by the transport capacity of Saan's ships, we know from Kem (Second Sons) that thousands were left stranded, and that at the ships only those still with arms were allowed on the ships, and so Kem (who dropped his spear) was not allowed on.

4. The Dornish were not counted by Stannis as supporting him, because he never made that assumption like Renly. Not sure how you missed that point. Renly assumed from the start that everyone would drop down to lick his boots because he has the largest army thanks to his marriage to the Tyrells. Instead everyone ignored him or turned against him. The Dornish hosts sent to the mountain passes were meant against the Marcher lords while Renly lived, forcing them to keep thier strength mainly at home. Meaning that they had actively taken military action against Renly, rather than joined him.

5. No, Renly was pretty clear to Catelyn that she is to remain to witness him destroying a rebel (Stannis), and so she is to return to her son with this knowledge of Renly's power. Robb can call himself KITN, but Renly insisted on Robb paying him homage and tax and service. Robb sent Catelyn there to offer Renly an alliance, and Renly flatly refused to recognise Robb as an equal. Again, the point here is Renly relying 100% on military might to bully everyone to bend the knee. He offered Robb fuck all in terms of saving face. Calling himself the KITN and fighting Renly's war is not the same as allowing Robb to back out of independence.

Due to similariy I refer you to the above reply. If there is anything else you think I did not adress, please point it out.

The bolded isn't really true as far as I know.

The issue was that Stannis had Melisandre profane the sept of Dragonstone, if the wiki is to be believed, and killed Lord Rambton and his sons who were defending that very sept. Only after that did Sunglass decide to not support Stannis. So after Sunglass' religion has been attacked physically and Sunglass' bannerman been killed does Lord Sunglass tell Stannis that he can't support Stannis any longer, and gets burned alive as a human sacrifice to R'hllor a bit later, after which his heir flees to Volantis.

I wouldn't say that Sunglass bases his decision only on Stannis having a different religion.

[Nyrhex]

37 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The bolded isn't really true as far as I know.

The issue was that Stannis had Melisandre profane the sept of Dragonstone, if the wiki is to be believed, and killed Lord Rambton and his sons who were defending that very sept. Only after that did Sunglass decide to not support Stannis. So after Sunglass' religion has been attacked physically and Sunglass' bannerman been killed does Lord Sunglass tell Stannis that he can't support Stannis any longer, and gets burned alive as a human sacrifice to R'hllor a bit later, after which his heir flees to Volantis.

I wouldn't say that Sunglass bases his decision only on Stannis having a different religion.

The sept of Dragonstone castle is Stannis' own property, it's not the only sept on the island. That has no relation to Sunglass. Sunglass went to Stannis after he burned the figures of the gods and told him he cannot follow him anymore. Of Stannis' bannermen, he is the only one that did so, there are no others mentioned. Rambton is a minor knightly house, again fanatcis, who refuse to allow the burning of a sept. They attack and kill several of Stannis' men. 

Sunglass' faith was not attacked, Stannis was converting his own faith and did a symbolic ceremony with witnesses, which is how one does these things. That he destroys his own property is his own issue. Sunglass may not like it, he may have issue with how Stannis went about it, but the point of the matter is that he went back on his feudal oath without legitimate reason. Sunglass is not sworn to serve Stannis only if he keeps to the faith of the Seven, it doesn't work like that. So Sunglass is executed for breaking fielty - the same as Robb threatened the Greatjon when the latter said he would leave if he does not get a command. No one is fucking asking if you want a command or if you mind what religion your king/lord is converting to, you are sworn to do X in return for Y, so don't demand Z when it was never promised. Go over the text of the feudal oaths we see in the books, and the cases of lords who follow kings/lords paramount who have a different religion (followers of the Seven under the Greyjoys/Starks for example). Sunglass is clearly in the wrong here, and it paints him as the fanatic.

[Buried Treasure]

If Renly had gotten Joff, Tommen and Myrcella as hostages he would have sentenced them all to death then arranged for someone - their mother, Margaery (to show her as a compassionate queen in contrast to Cersei) or a handy septon if no-one else was avaialbe - to plead from them to be spared in mercy.

Renly would kill Joff, he had worn the crown and Renly could claim it as justice for Eddard Stark - and also claim that as Joff was old enough to order deaths he was old enough to die. Renly could then show mercy on the other two children, and use them along with Cersei as hostages against Tywin.

[Lord Varys]

Nope, he would have killed them.

[Minsc]

10 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

1. Cut the shit. Even if Renly can't or won't overturn Robert's decision about Slynt, the city watch is rotten to the core and we see Renly doing fuck all about it. We see him do fuck all about anything. The Black Cells are a bad joke that Varys freely exploits as well. 

2. He was plotting to replace Cersei with Marg back in AGOT. There is no tangible benefit for himself from this aside from the fact that it pleases his lover and his family. Renly does not crown himself, Mace does. Renly is pushed to claim the kingship by the Tyrells, he is backed by the Tyrells, and between Renly's lack of interest in actual rule and the Tyrells' clear motives, it's clear that Renly is acting in the Tyrells' best interests first.

3. His bannermen are not the historic bannermen of his house, whom he inherited and have cultural and family ties to. The fact that they all support him (and Sunglass being the only fanatic that refuses to follow a follower of a different faith), while Renly has a bunch of lords either play both or more camps or outright stay home, tells us more than "it's just bannermen following thier lord". And aside of Celtiger who was stuck on the Blackwater and saved his men by going over, the lords of the Narrow Sea, and a few of others from the Stormlands and Reach remain loyal. The size of the army was dictated by the transport capacity of Saan's ships, we know from Kem (Second Sons) that thousands were left stranded, and that at the ships only those still with arms were allowed on the ships, and so Kem (who dropped his spear) was not allowed on.

4. The Dornish were not counted by Stannis as supporting him, because he never made that assumption like Renly. Not sure how you missed that point. Renly assumed from the start that everyone would drop down to lick his boots because he has the largest army thanks to his marriage to the Tyrells. Instead everyone ignored him or turned against him. The Dornish hosts sent to the mountain passes were meant against the Marcher lords while Renly lived, forcing them to keep thier strength mainly at home. Meaning that they had actively taken military action against Renly, rather than joined him.

5. No, Renly was pretty clear to Catelyn that she is to remain to witness him destroying a rebel (Stannis), and so she is to return to her son with this knowledge of Renly's power. Robb can call himself KITN, but Renly insisted on Robb paying him homage and tax and service. Robb sent Catelyn there to offer Renly an alliance, and Renly flatly refused to recognise Robb as an equal. Again, the point here is Renly relying 100% on military might to bully everyone to bend the knee. He offered Robb fuck all in terms of saving face. Calling himself the KITN and fighting Renly's war is not the same as allowing Robb to back out of independence.

Due to similariy I refer you to the above reply. If there is anything else you think I did not adress, please point it out.

1. Lie we see Renly question Slynt sharply about his failures to keep the peace during the Hand's Tournament.  What with us actually seeing him attending Small Council meetings while Stannis is off pouting. 

2. There is a benefit to him it gets rid of Cersei and he can hardly marry Robert himself.  Cersei is an overly ambitious and horrible harpy through her efforts the Lannisters have seized more and more power from the crown as Robert waves it off not wanting to fight her. How long until Cersei starts to eye Storm's End and Dragonstone for her sons as it is their proper inheritance leading Renly and Stannis to be stripped of their holdings. Replace her with Margaery and that is taken care of as Renly is friends with the Tyrells and they would owe him.

3. Bannermen that Robert had to fight half of during his own rebellion.  While, at worst Renly had a few stay neutral and those that we know that stayed neutral had sons stuck in KL.  Moreover, the Reach lords have no connection with the Baratheons but they had no problem joining up with Renly including Stannis's own in-laws.  Again without Renly or his allies having to fight any unlike the situation with Robert, Jon, or Hoster during Robert's Rebellion.  Please, more than half of Stannis's initial army abandoned him not including the numbers of those that joined him later. 

4. Doran sat around and did shit.  If Doran didn't have his own massively complex revenge plot it is likely he wouldn't have temporary "sided" with the Lannisters.  Also IIRC the only mention of the Martells marshaling the troops in the passes against the Stormlands was after Renly's death as it was Tyrion making mention of how Stannis might respond. 

5. Yes, Renly wanted stuff from Robb and wasn't just going to allow him to skip off free. However, he offered him terms that would allow him to save face.  How that is different than Robb coming to Renly hoping to convince him to fight his war for him?  Stannis just goes around threatening everyone while offering shit to them.

[The Sleeper]

If he had killed Stannis, he would have discovered the incest so that he would have a legitimate excuse to off them. Cersei's dead as well if he got his hands on her.

[Nyrhex]

10 minutes ago, Minsc said:

1. Lie we see Renly question Slynt sharply about his failures to keep the peace during the Hand's Tournament.  What with us actually seeing him attending Small Council meetings while Stannis is off pouting. 

2. There is a benefit to him it gets rid of Cersei and he can hardly marry Robert himself.  Cersei is an overly ambitious and horrible harpy through her efforts the Lannisters have seized more and more power from the crown as Robert waves it off not wanting to fight her. How long until Cersei starts to eye Storm's End and Dragonstone for her sons as it is their proper inheritance leading Renly and Stannis to be stripped of their holdings. Replace her with Margaery and that is taken care of as Renly is friends with the Tyrells and they would owe him.

3. Bannermen that Robert had to fight half of during his own rebellion.  While, at worst Renly had a few stay neutral and those that we know that stayed neutral had sons stuck in KL.  Moreover, the Reach lords have no connection with the Baratheons but they had no problem joining up with Renly including Stannis's own in-laws.  Again without Renly or his allies having to fight any unlike the situation with Robert, Jon, or Hoster during Robert's Rebellion.  Please, more than half of Stannis's initial army abandoned him not including the numbers of those that joined him later. 

4. Doran sat around and did shit.  If Doran didn't have his own massively complex revenge plot it is likely he wouldn't have temporary "sided" with the Lannisters.  Also IIRC the only mention of the Martells marshaling the troops in the passes against the Stormlands was after Renly's death as it was Tyrion making mention of how Stannis might respond. 

5. Yes, Renly wanted stuff from Robb and wasn't just going to allow him to skip off free. However, he offered him terms that would allow him to save face.  How that is different than Robb coming to Renly hoping to convince him to fight his war for him?  Stannis just goes around threatening everyone while offering shit to them.

1. Questions sharply? Have we read the same scene?

“Call it what you will, my lord. Knights have been arriving from all over the realm, and for every knight we get two freeriders, three
craftsmen, six men-at-arms, a dozen merchants, two dozen whores, and more thieves than I dare guess. This cursed heat had half the city in
a fever to start, and now with all these visitors … last night we had a drowning, a tavern riot, three knife fights, a rape, two fires, robberies
beyond count, and a drunken horse race down the Street of the Sisters. The night before a woman’s head was found in the Great Sept,
floating in the rainbow pool. No one seems to know how it got there or who it belongs to.”
“How dreadful,” Varys said with a shudder.
Lord Renly Baratheon was less sympathetic. “If you cannot keep the king’s peace, Janos, perhaps the City Watch should be commanded by
someone who can.”
Stout, jowly Janos Slynt puffed himself up like an angry frog, his bald pate reddening. “Aegon the Dragon himself could not keep the
peace, Lord Renly. I need more men.”

Renly just threatens Slynt with sacking him if he can't deal with such trifles like a city of half a million during a heat wave, scores of thieves per tourney knight who enter the city as it is flooded with people carrying cash, several murders and fires and robberies... The city has 7 gates to guard, and 2,000 men who act as sentries, police and fire brigade. Do the math, they are laughably undermanned. This is literally one of the places where Slynt is right, and Ned gives him more men because he realises the obvious - they are needed. Renly questions nothing, he just makes a generic threat of "deal with it with what you currently have or I'll fire you and find someone else who can". It has nothing to do with the fact that Slynt is selling positions or taking bribes. Renly sees it the same as LF and Robert - If it gets the job done roughly he does not give a shit what the guy is up to. Yes, I think we can safely say that Renly's time as Master of Laws can be summed up as Renly going to meetings to joke with LF and Varys and then go on with his day of doing fuck all.

2. Oh come on. The Tyrells are the exact same as the Lannisters. Renly is acting in direct benefit for the Tyrells, and there is no chance (let alone reason to beleive or hinting or anything) that Robert would strip away even Stannis of Dragonstone, let alone Renly of Storm's End to give to the Lannisters. This sort of outright bullshit is unlike you.

3. Right, three bannermen who were close to the capital and so to the Targs, including one who was literally in love with Robert's enemy. And what does Renly get? The Stormlands who rememer what happened last time. Robb does not have to deal with this bullshit, Edmure does not have to deal with this bullshit, and Lysa does not have to deal with this bullshit, because they all took care of thier bannermen with ideas back in RR. Everyone has thier bannermen follow them during the WOT5K pretty much without issue. Robb had to deal with Umber's hissy fit, and had Lady Dustin hold back on men because of her hate for Ned, but pretty much everyone still backed him. Edmure had the Riverlords back him, with pretty much just Bracken trying to make sure he has a case with the capital as well. The Vale listens to Lysa and place a siege on LF when they think thier lord's interests are threatened. Stannis has pretty much just Sunglass go back on his oath of fealty out of religious fanaticism. The Lannisters have everyone in line ever since the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion. The Dornish, despite any and all logic, support the Martells 100%. Even Yronwood, who comes from a family with the most reasons to hate them, and which rose 3 times with the Blackfyres, sends his son and heir with Doran's own to bring back a Targ girl for Doran's stupid plan for war with all of Westeros for vengence. Renly is the only one with lords who are stated clearly to have one foot in more than one camp, and the Tyrells have several others who are more in the air, but seem to be mostly staying back to see what happens. Renly's charisma did not build him a massive army, it was the Tyrells and the Tyrell bannermen who were mostly so loyal that they rise in a blatant power grab for them.

4. Point is Renly counted the Dornish on his side, and due to 2 reasons this was not the case. One is that, in GRRM's own words, Doran did not see Renly as a winner. Even with the single largest army and navy on the continent. Second was that Renly was sure that Doran would join him because he has the largest army and the Dornish hate Lannisters, right? The Dornish hate the Tyrells even more, and the entire reason for Doran's revenge fantasy plan is to marry his daughter to the king, like the deal the Dornish had with Elia and Rhaegar. Having that option off the table, and having a smirking whore from Highgarden as queen is worse for Doran than siding with the Lannisters. And the soldiers go to the mountain passes because that was the deal. That news only arrives a week or so after Renly's death is beside the point, the agreement was made while he lived and seemed the strongest player around, plus considering travel times the troops would have already been in the passes while Renly still lived.

5. Renly is not much different than Stannis, that is my point here. And "allowing" Robb to call himself the KITN to save face is kinda streching it, no? No one is buying it, it's not even the same deal that Dorne got. The point is that Renly has little if any going for him to say that he would make a good king. Not more than anyone else. And the fact that Renly is treating Robb as a rebel while he is a traitor and a rebel himself does not really compare to Stannis' claim and outlook, and Stannis' character and bluntness is meant to be the opposite of Renly, no? It's different because Renly actually manages to look more of an ass than Stannis, which usually takes some effort. By all rights Robb should have laughed him off and continue to leave Tywin to Renly to bleed forces on as he attempts to take the capital. 

[Minsc]

9 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

1. Questions sharply? Have we read the same scene?

“Call it what you will, my lord. Knights have been arriving from all over the realm, and for every knight we get two freeriders, three
craftsmen, six men-at-arms, a dozen merchants, two dozen whores, and more thieves than I dare guess. This cursed heat had half the city in
a fever to start, and now with all these visitors … last night we had a drowning, a tavern riot, three knife fights, a rape, two fires, robberies
beyond count, and a drunken horse race down the Street of the Sisters. The night before a woman’s head was found in the Great Sept,
floating in the rainbow pool. No one seems to know how it got there or who it belongs to.”
“How dreadful,” Varys said with a shudder.
Lord Renly Baratheon was less sympathetic. “If you cannot keep the king’s peace, Janos, perhaps the City Watch should be commanded by
someone who can.”
Stout, jowly Janos Slynt puffed himself up like an angry frog, his bald pate reddening. “Aegon the Dragon himself could not keep the
peace, Lord Renly. I need more men.”

Renly just threatens Slynt with sacking him if he can't deal with such trifles like a city of half a million during a heat wave, scores of thieves per tourney knight who enter the city as it is flooded with people carrying cash, several murders and fires and robberies... The city has 7 gates to guard, and 2,000 men who act as sentries, police and fire brigade. Do the math, they are laughably undermanned. This is literally one of the places where Slynt is right, and Ned gives him more men because he realises the obvious - they are needed. Renly questions nothing, he just makes a generic threat of "deal with it with what you currently have or I'll fire you and find someone else who can". It has nothing to do with the fact that Slynt is selling positions or taking bribes. Renly sees it the same as LF and Robert - If it gets the job done roughly he does not give a shit what the guy is up to. Yes, I think we can safely say that Renly's time as Master of Laws can be summed up as Renly going to meetings to joke with LF and Varys and then go on with his day of doing fuck all.

2. Oh come on. The Tyrells are the exact same as the Lannisters. Renly is acting in direct benefit for the Tyrells, and there is no chance (let alone reason to beleive or hinting or anything) that Robert would strip away even Stannis of Dragonstone, let alone Renly of Storm's End to give to the Lannisters. This sort of outright bullshit is unlike you.

3. Right, three bannermen who were close to the capital and so to the Targs, including one who was literally in love with Robert's enemy. And what does Renly get? The Stormlands who rememer what happened last time. Robb does not have to deal with this bullshit, Edmure does not have to deal with this bullshit, and Lysa does not have to deal with this bullshit, because they all took care of thier bannermen with ideas back in RR. Everyone has thier bannermen follow them during the WOT5K pretty much without issue. Robb had to deal with Umber's hissy fit, and had Lady Dustin hold back on men because of her hate for Ned, but pretty much everyone still backed him. Edmure had the Riverlords back him, with pretty much just Bracken trying to make sure he has a case with the capital as well. The Vale listens to Lysa and place a siege on LF when they think thier lord's interests are threatened. Stannis has pretty much just Sunglass go back on his oath of fealty out of religious fanaticism. The Lannisters have everyone in line ever since the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion. The Dornish, despite any and all logic, support the Martells 100%. Even Yronwood, who comes from a family with the most reasons to hate them, and which rose 3 times with the Blackfyres, sends his son and heir with Doran's own to bring back a Targ girl for Doran's stupid plan for war with all of Westeros for vengence. Renly is the only one with lords who are stated clearly to have one foot in more than one camp, and the Tyrells have several others who are more in the air, but seem to be mostly staying back to see what happens. Renly's charisma did not build him a massive army, it was the Tyrells and the Tyrell bannermen who were mostly so loyal that they rise in a blatant power grab for them.

4. Point is Renly counted the Dornish on his side, and due to 2 reasons this was not the case. One is that, in GRRM's own words, Doran did not see Renly as a winner. Even with the single largest army and navy on the continent. Second was that Renly was sure that Doran would join him because he has the largest army and the Dornish hate Lannisters, right? The Dornish hate the Tyrells even more, and the entire reason for Doran's revenge fantasy plan is to marry his daughter to the king, like the deal the Dornish had with Elia and Rhaegar. Having that option off the table, and having a smirking whore from Highgarden as queen is worse for Doran than siding with the Lannisters. And the soldiers go to the mountain passes because that was the deal. That news only arrives a week or so after Renly's death is beside the point, the agreement was made while he lived and seemed the strongest player around, plus considering travel times the troops would have already been in the passes while Renly still lived.

5. Renly is not much different than Stannis, that is my point here. And "allowing" Robb to call himself the KITN to save face is kinda streching it, no? No one is buying it, it's not even the same deal that Dorne got. The point is that Renly has little if any going for him to say that he would make a good king. Not more than anyone else. And the fact that Renly is treating Robb as a rebel while he is a traitor and a rebel himself does not really compare to Stannis' claim and outlook, and Stannis' character and bluntness is meant to be the opposite of Renly, no? It's different because Renly actually manages to look more of an ass than Stannis, which usually takes some effort. By all rights Robb should have laughed him off and continue to leave Tywin to Renly to bleed forces on as he attempts to take the capital. 

1. Renly is questioning him on his failures at that moment.  Those other problems had already been decided with Robert declaring them to be okay. Moreover, none of the council meetings we witness revolve around that issue so Renly has no reason to bring it up instead of focusing on the main issue of those meetings of which he voices his stance.  Still better than what we can assume about Stannis's record that he must have repeatedly disappeared to sulk about petty grievances.

2. No they aren't even if Dontos attempts to sell them that way while persuading Sansa not to trust them. It is fully possible that Cersei might try to get Robert to give those holdings to her sons. The charge that Renly is a puppet is ridiculous charge by Stannis fans who have to resort to making stuff up to attack Renly.  Everything we see in the books has him being in charge. And Stannis gives away more to the Florents than Renly ever did to the Tyrells.

3. The North stayed completely loyal last time and the Riverlands were attacked by the Lannisters thus neither are the same as the Stormlands and Reach staying completely loyal to Renly.  Accept it your dismissing Renly's men's loyalty while praising Stannis's men's loyalty is absurd.  Either both are impressive or neither are.

4. The Dornish act in the manner that they do because Doran has his own absurd revenge plan that he thinks will take out the Lannisters.  Doran being overly cautious about Renly means little as the man is the definition of overly cautious.  Shit, he risked his sister and her children because of his cautious nature requiring threats from Aerys before moving in a way that would also protect her.

5. It is absolutely a means to help Robb save face.  Renly's job isn't to please Robb completely and allow him to remain independent because that is what Robb wants.  Stannis comes off as way more of an ass (but what do you expect from a Mel puppet) with him just issuing threats and everything.  Robb should have left Tywin to Renly?  Interesting seeing how Robb was the one currently stuck with Tywin.  You know with Tywin sitting in the middle of Robb's supposed kingdom or is Robb going to cowardly abandon the Riverlands?

[Lion of the West]

20 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

The sept of Dragonstone castle is Stannis' own property, it's not the only sept on the island. That has no relation to Sunglass. Sunglass went to Stannis after he burned the figures of the gods and told him he cannot follow him anymore. Of Stannis' bannermen, he is the only one that did so, there are no others mentioned. Rambton is a minor knightly house, again fanatcis, who refuse to allow the burning of a sept. They attack and kill several of Stannis' men. 

Sunglass' faith was not attacked, Stannis was converting his own faith and did a symbolic ceremony with witnesses, which is how one does these things. That he destroys his own property is his own issue. Sunglass may not like it, he may have issue with how Stannis went about it, but the point of the matter is that he went back on his feudal oath without legitimate reason. Sunglass is not sworn to serve Stannis only if he keeps to the faith of the Seven, it doesn't work like that. So Sunglass is executed for breaking fielty - the same as Robb threatened the Greatjon when the latter said he would leave if he does not get a command. No one is fucking asking if you want a command or if you mind what religion your king/lord is converting to, you are sworn to do X in return for Y, so don't demand Z when it was never promised. Go over the text of the feudal oaths we see in the books, and the cases of lords who follow kings/lords paramount who have a different religion (followers of the Seven under the Greyjoys/Starks for example). Sunglass is clearly in the wrong here, and it paints him as the fanatic.

Still an attack on Sunglass' religion. If I buy a bible or koran and then wipe my ass with it in public, then saying that I am "just using my own property however I like" is a very poor defense for this symbolic act which anyone will understand. I don't agree that not allowing a sept to be burnt, which possed no threat in any way to Stannis and was a clear provokoation by Stannis is the act of fanatics, Sunglass were still with Stannis. Also the Rambtons did to my knowledge not attack anyone, they were attacked at the sept.

If I convert to a religion and proceed to publically burn my cope of "The Origin of Species" then, without it being a religious book but still to my knowledge carrying symbolism in, it will be a powerful symbolic act that can only really be interpreted as an attack on other people. Same with if I would convert from Islam and burn a koran or something similar. When you make things things public and with theatrics for all to see you are not just doing what you want with you property but sending a powerful message.

The point of feudal contract can absolutely be discussed and you are right in that Sunglass broke feudal contract, after Stannis' provokations. But I still fail to see the fanatic side of it, only the stupid in not just leaving Stannis for Renly but actually informing Stannis of the fact. The fact that Sunglass and the Rambton kept faith with Stannis untill Stannis started making these symbolic attacks on their religion tells me that if Stannis had not burned the sept and not sent this public message, then relations would have been fine as he'd be saying that "I have a different religion now, but I am fine with you having yours."

[Nyrhex]

4 hours ago, Minsc said:

1. Renly is questioning him on his failures at that moment.  Those other problems had already been decided with Robert declaring them to be okay. Moreover, none of the council meetings we witness revolve around that issue so Renly has no reason to bring it up instead of focusing on the main issue of those meetings of which he voices his stance.  Still better than what we can assume about Stannis's record that he must have repeatedly disappeared to sulk about petty grievances.

2. No they aren't even if Dontos attempts to sell them that way while persuading Sansa not to trust them. It is fully possible that Cersei might try to get Robert to give those holdings to her sons. The charge that Renly is a puppet is ridiculous charge by Stannis fans who have to resort to making stuff up to attack Renly.  Everything we see in the books has him being in charge. And Stannis gives away more to the Florents than Renly ever did to the Tyrells.

3. The North stayed completely loyal last time and the Riverlands were attacked by the Lannisters thus neither are the same as the Stormlands and Reach staying completely loyal to Renly.  Accept it your dismissing Renly's men's loyalty while praising Stannis's men's loyalty is absurd.  Either both are impressive or neither are.

4. The Dornish act in the manner that they do because Doran has his own absurd revenge plan that he thinks will take out the Lannisters.  Doran being overly cautious about Renly means little as the man is the definition of overly cautious.  Shit, he risked his sister and her children because of his cautious nature requiring threats from Aerys before moving in a way that would also protect her.

5. It is absolutely a means to help Robb save face.  Renly's job isn't to please Robb completely and allow him to remain independent because that is what Robb wants.  Stannis comes off as way more of an ass (but what do you expect from a Mel puppet) with him just issuing threats and everything.  Robb should have left Tywin to Renly?  Interesting seeing how Robb was the one currently stuck with Tywin.  You know with Tywin sitting in the middle of Robb's supposed kingdom or is Robb going to cowardly abandon the Riverlands?

1. Renly questions nothing. There was no question, there was just a threat - do what I demand with what you already have or I'll find someone who can. Stop whitewashing Renly here, he is Master of Laws and under his watch you have half a dozen people getting paid to keep empty cells and the city watch has half the officers taking bribes. Even if Robert decides not to execute Slynt, Renly makes zero attempt at making things any better. He even refuses to add to the manpower when they have just had a spike in duties related to the Hand's Tourney. He just doesn't care, he is content with leaving things as they are, making no attempt to better them. Of course Renly has reason to bring those issues to council meetings - IT'S LITERALLY HIS ONE JOB. Even if he does not bring it to council meetings, those are for matters which usually require all of the members. He has his own job. When Littlefinger goes around and appoints tax collectors, when Varys sends spies and goes over reports, when Stannis goes on an anti-piracy campaign, they don't take the entire council with them, do they? So why the hell is Renly not doing anything outside of council? We only ever hear about how he dresses and parties and plays tourney to be knocked off by better men, never about how he does his job.

Now I get that you like Renly and hate Stannis, but FFS, that is the opposite of the picture you are trying to make. We know that Stannis is doing his job because aside of the fact that Stannis is leading the fleet in two wars, we also hear of Stannis in an anti-piracy campaign on the Sisters, from Godric Borell who had to hang close friends on Stannis' order for smuggling and piracy. 

2. First we see Renly try and get Robert to marry Marg, then we see Mace crown Renly and support him in his power grab, then we see the Tyrells switch over to the Lannisters and get Mace on the Small Council as Master of Ships, while his second son becomes a great lord, and his third joins the Kingsguard. From there the Tyrells push thier men into the City Watch, Mace becomes Hand, and has half the Small Council with his bannermen. They are exactly the same, Kevan in the end commenting about how power hungry Mace is and how he is getting outnumbered in the Small Council. Renly was in charge of his army alright, but he was pushed to it by his lover at Mace's insistance. The Tyrells are clearly making a grab at as many titles and positions, and filling the capital with thier own men, and even get the Citadel's conclave to elect a Tyrell to replace Pycelle as Grand Maester. Stannis makes a Florent his Hand for a short while and replaces him shortly after, and has another act as his admiral. Look in his war council after the Blackwater. Even with Florent soldiers being repeatedly mentioned there there is no Florent family member or even household knight leading them in the war council. Wow, such power, much puppet, very comparable. 

3. Now you just lie by hyperbole. We are specifically told that several of Renly's lords stayed behind, and several had one foot in either camp from the start. The Tyrells also had several lords, notable among them Hightower, who stayed behind. No, they did not show "complete loyalty", so stop pretending they did. Each region has maybe one example of a lord showing some level of resistance, but Renly is the only one where there are several who do. And considering that his entire trick is that he gets people to like and follow him and that he has build this army on his charisma, this stands out. His army is made up of most of his lords, and most of the lords of the Tyrells whom he married into, and who had crowned him and set him on his war. Without the Tyrells Renly is nothing. The Stormlords who followed him showed enough concern to keep one foot in either camp while he had the single larges army, without the Tyrells I doubt Renly would even get a half of those lords to follow him to war.

4. And? This does not change the fact that Renly counts Doran in his plans, while not even bothering to send a postcard. You know who else does that? Robb Stark when he thinks that Lysa would join the Vale's forces to him because she is a Tully. Balon Greyjoy when he thinks the Lannisters would accept half the realm if he aids them in thier war. Not great company. At least Robb was banking on family and Balon on military need. Renly made the mistake that the Dorish hate the Lannisters over a single act 15 years ago than the Reach and the Tyrells over thousands of years of war and bad blood. 

5. And still, you are overhyping it. Robb's lords are not idiots, they get the concept of returning to the fold. It changes little. Renly comes out as more of an ass because he is a traitor and rebel who knows that what he is doing has no justification aside of personal gain, and he treats Robb as a rebel to him. Stannis' justigication is that he is the king, and Renly and Robb and Balon are rebels. I'm not surprise this is lost on you, but it's still how it is. Renly has no high ground to say that he does not have to make it easy on Robb, because he is a rebel, and Robb has no reason to accept him as king. And Tywin in the Riverlands is bad for the Riverlands, but Robb did not care about them as much as the North, and he did not wish to risk battle with Tywin. Renly on the other hand was slowly making his way to the capital, so unless he wants to lose momentum and have people start returning home, at some point he is going to have to actually make a move for the capital. The only reason Robb gives for staying in the west was that he wanted Renly/Stannis to attack the capital while it is undefended. The only reason Tywin moved away from Harrenhal was because at the time Renly was dead and it seemed that Stannis would stay at Storm's End for a while. Yeah, Renly's strategy failed, Robb could have waited in Riverrun or pillage the Westerlands until another host would have formed to oust him. He still would have avoided a costly battle with Tywin, and Renly would still have had that Lannister host nearby to oppose his attack on the capital. You assume that Robb was on the clock here, when Robb did not care for the Riverlands half as much as people give him credit for, and Renly was the one who needed early victories to keep the hype. Look at Robb's lords from the North and Riverlands wanting to go home in the middle of the war, Stannis' lords wanting to start the war already or they go home, the Dornish host melting away after two years of nothing in the mountain passes, Lannister forces melting away the instant te war starts to wind down, a good chunck of the foot at Bitterbridge using the first excue to return home after Renly dies. Renly was on the clock here, not the other way around.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Still an attack on Sunglass' religion. If I buy a bible or koran and then wipe my ass with it in public, then saying that I am "just using my own property however I like" is a very poor defense for this symbolic act which anyone will understand. I don't agree that not allowing a sept to be burnt, which possed no threat in any way to Stannis and was a clear provokoation by Stannis is the act of fanatics, Sunglass were still with Stannis. Also the Rambtons did to my knowledge not attack anyone, they were attacked at the sept.

If I convert to a religion and proceed to publically burn my cope of "The Origin of Species" then, without it being a religious book but still to my knowledge carrying symbolism in, it will be a powerful symbolic act that can only really be interpreted as an attack on other people. Same with if I would convert from Islam and burn a koran or something similar. When you make things things public and with theatrics for all to see you are not just doing what you want with you property but sending a powerful message.

The point of feudal contract can absolutely be discussed and you are right in that Sunglass broke feudal contract, after Stannis' provokations. But I still fail to see the fanatic side of it, only the stupid in not just leaving Stannis for Renly but actually informing Stannis of the fact. The fact that Sunglass and the Rambton kept faith with Stannis untill Stannis started making these symbolic attacks on their religion tells me that if Stannis had not burned the sept and not sent this public message, then relations would have been fine as he'd be saying that "I have a different religion now, but I am fine with you having yours."

It's still Sunglass being the fanatic here. Burning septs was done far more often by Starks and Lannisters in the Riverlands - It's sorta what gets the whole Sparrows thing going in the first place. Robert and Ned's armies on Pyke burned the sept during the siege in the last war. 

The Rambtons: 

Dragonstone's sept had been where Aegon the Conqueror knelt to pray the night before he sailed. That had not saved it from the queen's men. They had overturned the altars, pulled down the statues, and smashed the stained glass with warhammers. Septon Barre could only curse them, but Ser Hubard Rambton led his three sons to the sept to defend their gods. The Rambtons had slain four of the queen's men before the others overwhelmed them. Afterward Guncer Sunglass, mildest and most pious of lords, told Stannis he could no longer support his claim. Now he shared a sweltering cell with the septon and Ser Hubard's two surviving sons. The other lords had not been slow to take the lesson.

The Rambtons were killed for murder. They went into the sept to attack Stannis' men.

Being angry at Stannis for how he went about his conversion is of course understandable, but don't try and pretend that murder is then justified. Sunglass' oath of fielry is not conditioned on Stannis keeping to the same faith. That he broke the feudal contract on those grounds is a fanatical act. At no other place do we see religion being the cause of a someone refusing to follow his lord/king. Yes, Stannis could have done it differently, but so could have Sunglass and the Rambtons.

 

 

Anyway I think this has gone on long enough. I've answered OP's question, this is not a thread about Stannis.

[Lion of the West]

14 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

It's still Sunglass being the fanatic here. Burning septs was done fare more often by Starks and Lannisters in the Riverlands. Robert and Ned's armies on Pyke burned the sept during the siege in the last war. 

The Rambtons: 

Dragonstone's sept had been where Aegon the Conqueror knelt to pray the night before he sailed. That had not saved it from the queen's men. They had overturned the altars, pulled down the statues, and smashed the stained glass with warhammers. Septon Barre could only curse them, but Ser Hubard Rambton led his three sons to the sept to defend their gods. The Rambtons had slain four of the queen's men before the others overwhelmed them. Afterward Guncer Sunglass, mildest and most pious of lords, told Stannis he could no longer support his claim. Now he shared a sweltering cell with the septon and Ser Hubard's two surviving sons. The other lords had not been slow to take the lesson.

The Rambtons were killed for murder. They went into the sept to attack Stannis' men.

Being angry at Stannis for how he went about his conversion is of course understandable, but don't try and pretend that murder is then justified. Sunglass' oath of fielry is not conditioned on Stannis keeping to the same faith. That he broke the feudal contract on those grounds is a fanatical act. At no other place do we see religion being the cause of a someone refusing to follow his lord/king. Yes, Stannis could have done it differently, but so could have Sunglass and the Rambtons.

 

 

Anyway I think this has gone on long enough. I've answered OP's question, this is not a thread about Stannis.

No, Sunglass is not a fanatic. However you may like to think otherwise there are many levels between fanatic and apathic. The point of the burning of the sept at Dragonstone is not however how many septs that are burnt but how its done. If its just another building among many it may not mean anything, but if you single it out alone that speaks of something else.

But thank you for that quote, I assume, from the books. I have come in my unfortunate sloth to rely on the wiki to some degree and it seems I had the wrong impression from there. From this new information you are right in that the Rambtons attacked Stannis' men. Although I wonder why the septon was put alongside murderers and a traitor? Was the septon also a criminal and if such of which crime?

Once again. Sunglass didn't break the oath to Stannis on the grounds of Stannis conversion. He broke on the grounds of Stannis attacking his religion.You may note that first the sept is demolished and if I recall Meslisandre publically burns the statues of the Seven and after all that, does Sunglass seek to break with Stannis. All the aggressions comes from Stannis in this. But you are right in at almost no other point is religion used given that there are few other fanatics like Stannis, Melisandre and Selyse who wanders around Westeros to provoke people to this degree. Do you remember maester Cressan/Cressen? He tried to assassinate Melisandre and as I recall objected to burning the statues of the Seven, do you think he was a fanatic as well?

[Nyrhex]

14 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, Sunglass is not a fanatic. However you may like to think otherwise there are many levels between fanatic and apathic. The point of the burning of the sept at Dragonstone is not however how many septs that are burnt but how its done. If its just another building among many it may not mean anything, but if you single it out alone that speaks of something else.

But thank you for that quote, I assume, from the books. I have come in my unfortunate sloth to rely on the wiki to some degree and it seems I had the wrong impression from there. From this new information you are right in that the Rambtons attacked Stannis' men. Although I wonder why the septon was put alongside murderers and a traitor? Was the septon also a criminal and if such of which crime?

Once again. Sunglass didn't break the oath to Stannis on the grounds of Stannis conversion. He broke on the grounds of Stannis attacking his religion.You may note that first the sept is demolished and if I recall Meslisandre publically burns the statues of the Seven and after all that, does Sunglass seek to break with Stannis. All the aggressions comes from Stannis in this. But you are right in at almost no other point is religion used given that there are few other fanatics like Stannis, Melisandre and Selyse who wanders around Westeros to provoke people to this degree. Do you remember maester Cressan/Cressen? He tried to assassinate Melisandre and as I recall objected to burning the statues of the Seven, do you think he was a fanatic as well?

Sunglass calls his ships Piety, Prayer, and Devotion. Yeah, he seems to be a bit above average in how he treats his religion. Septs were specifically targeted, as well as septas on the road. This has led to a popular movement forming to oppose that, but we hear practically nothing from lords. Sunglass is an exception. When the Greyjoys sack septs what do lords like the Seven-following Harlaws feel? Yet they serve thier lord all the same.

The septon one would assume was arrested for his part in the attack on Stannis' men. It's not much detail in a paragraph, but we do know that only the Rambtons and Sunglass were executed. 

The burning of the idols is after, they were taken from the sept while it was destroyed. Here is the complete passage, showing that Sunglass is arrested before the burning of the idols, and that Davos is remembering what happened earlier that day. Before Stannis has his public conversion, Sunglass tells him he cannot follow him after Stannis destroys his own sept in his own castle.

The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue. Davos understood only the last. "R'hllor, come to us in our darkness," she called. "Lord of Light, we offer you these false gods, these seven who are one, and him the enemy. Take them and cast your light upon us, for the night is dark and full of terrors." Queen Selyse echoed the words. Beside her, Stannis watched impassively, his jaw hard as stone under the blue-black shadow of his tight-cropped beard. He had dressed more richly than was his wont, as if for the sept.

Dragonstone's sept had been where Aegon the Conqueror knelt to pray the night before he sailed. That had not saved it from the queen's men. They had overturned the altars, pulled down the statues, and smashed the stained glass with warhammers. Septon Barre could only curse them, but Ser Hubard Rambton led his three sons to the sept to defend their gods. The Rambtons had slain four of the queen's men before the others overwhelmed them. Afterward Guncer Sunglass, mildest and most pious of lords, told Stannis he could no longer support his claim. Now he shared a sweltering cell with the septon and Ser Hubard's two surviving sons. The other lords had not been slow to take the lesson.

Cressen gives his reasons for killing Mel. It's not religion, it's when Selyse and Mel offer that Renly should die. I think you are remmebering the show, which played Stannis as the fanatic who burns infidels. Cressen dies in the prologue, and the burning of the idols is in the Davos I chapter later. He could not resist the burnings because he was not alive at the time.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Twyin,Cersei,Jaime,Tyrion and Joffrey would be executed.

Tommen and Myrcella would remain hostages to threaten the remaining Lannisters.

Kevan would be spared.The Wall is always an option too.

All of these depend on how King's Landing would fall to Renly.If a second Sack happened, Tommen,Myrcella and Sansa were doomed.

[Minsc]

10 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

1. Renly questions nothing. There was no question, there was just a threat - do what I demand with what you already have or I'll find someone who can. Stop whitewashing Renly here, he is Master of Laws and under his watch you have half a dozen people getting paid to keep empty cells and the city watch has half the officers taking bribes. Even if Robert decides not to execute Slynt, Renly makes zero attempt at making things any better. He even refuses to add to the manpower when they have just had a spike in duties related to the Hand's Tourney. He just doesn't care, he is content with leaving things as they are, making no attempt to better them. Of course Renly has reason to bring those issues to council meetings - IT'S LITERALLY HIS ONE JOB. Even if he does not bring it to council meetings, those are for matters which usually require all of the members. He has his own job. When Littlefinger goes around and appoints tax collectors, when Varys sends spies and goes over reports, when Stannis goes on an anti-piracy campaign, they don't take the entire council with them, do they? So why the hell is Renly not doing anything outside of council? We only ever hear about how he dresses and parties and plays tourney to be knocked off by better men, never about how he does his job.

Now I get that you like Renly and hate Stannis, but FFS, that is the opposite of the picture you are trying to make. We know that Stannis is doing his job because aside of the fact that Stannis is leading the fleet in two wars, we also hear of Stannis in an anti-piracy campaign on the Sisters, from Godric Borell who had to hang close friends on Stannis' order for smuggling and piracy. 

2. First we see Renly try and get Robert to marry Marg, then we see Mace crown Renly and support him in his power grab, then we see the Tyrells switch over to the Lannisters and get Mace on the Small Council as Master of Ships, while his second son becomes a great lord, and his third joins the Kingsguard. From there the Tyrells push thier men into the City Watch, Mace becomes Hand, and has half the Small Council with his bannermen. They are exactly the same, Kevan in the end commenting about how power hungry Mace is and how he is getting outnumbered in the Small Council. Renly was in charge of his army alright, but he was pushed to it by his lover at Mace's insistance. The Tyrells are clearly making a grab at as many titles and positions, and filling the capital with thier own men, and even get the Citadel's conclave to elect a Tyrell to replace Pycelle as Grand Maester. Stannis makes a Florent his Hand for a short while and replaces him shortly after, and has another act as his admiral. Look in his war council after the Blackwater. Even with Florent soldiers being repeatedly mentioned there there is no Florent family member or even household knight leading them in the war council. Wow, such power, much puppet, very comparable. 

3. Now you just lie by hyperbole. We are specifically told that several of Renly's lords stayed behind, and several had one foot in either camp from the start. The Tyrells also had several lords, notable among them Hightower, who stayed behind. No, they did not show "complete loyalty", so stop pretending they did. Each region has maybe one example of a lord showing some level of resistance, but Renly is the only one where there are several who do. And considering that his entire trick is that he gets people to like and follow him and that he has build this army on his charisma, this stands out. His army is made up of most of his lords, and most of the lords of the Tyrells whom he married into, and who had crowned him and set him on his war. Without the Tyrells Renly is nothing. The Stormlords who followed him showed enough concern to keep one foot in either camp while he had the single larges army, without the Tyrells I doubt Renly would even get a half of those lords to follow him to war.

4. And? This does not change the fact that Renly counts Doran in his plans, while not even bothering to send a postcard. You know who else does that? Robb Stark when he thinks that Lysa would join the Vale's forces to him because she is a Tully. Balon Greyjoy when he thinks the Lannisters would accept half the realm if he aids them in thier war. Not great company. At least Robb was banking on family and Balon on military need. Renly made the mistake that the Dorish hate the Lannisters over a single act 15 years ago than the Reach and the Tyrells over thousands of years of war and bad blood. 

5. And still, you are overhyping it. Robb's lords are not idiots, they get the concept of returning to the fold. It changes little. Renly comes out as more of an ass because he is a traitor and rebel who knows that what he is doing has no justification aside of personal gain, and he treats Robb as a rebel to him. Stannis' justigication is that he is the king, and Renly and Robb and Balon are rebels. I'm not surprise this is lost on you, but it's still how it is. Renly has no high ground to say that he does not have to make it easy on Robb, because he is a rebel, and Robb has no reason to accept him as king. And Tywin in the Riverlands is bad for the Riverlands, but Robb did not care about them as much as the North, and he did not wish to risk battle with Tywin. Renly on the other hand was slowly making his way to the capital, so unless he wants to lose momentum and have people start returning home, at some point he is going to have to actually make a move for the capital. The only reason Robb gives for staying in the west was that he wanted Renly/Stannis to attack the capital while it is undefended. The only reason Tywin moved away from Harrenhal was because at the time Renly was dead and it seemed that Stannis would stay at Storm's End for a while. Yeah, Renly's strategy failed, Robb could have waited in Riverrun or pillage the Westerlands until another host would have formed to oust him. He still would have avoided a costly battle with Tywin, and Renly would still have had that Lannister host nearby to oppose his attack on the capital. You assume that Robb was on the clock here, when Robb did not care for the Riverlands half as much as people give him credit for, and Renly was the one who needed early victories to keep the hype. Look at Robb's lords from the North and Riverlands wanting to go home in the middle of the war, Stannis' lords wanting to start the war already or they go home, the Dornish host melting away after two years of nothing in the mountain passes, Lannister forces melting away the instant te war starts to wind down, a good chunck of the foot at Bitterbridge using the first excue to return home after Renly dies. Renly was on the clock here, not the other way around.

1. We see Renly doing his job of keeping pressure on Slynt on why he is not doing his job to satisfaction.  Admit you are just making up attacks on Renly here because you are a Stannis fanboy and upset that we see Renly take his job more seriously than Stannis.  It has already been explained to why Renly isn't just able to get rid of Slynt and stop all that he is doing because Robert has voiced his approval of Slynt and his acts.  Renly doesn't bring Slynt's crimes in the Small Council as that would be just be beating a dead horse and the Small Council meetings that we see all have an express purposes and none of them deal with Slynt.  We don't see LF appoint tax collectors, Stannis fight pirates, and so forth either so maybe they aren't doing their jobs either.  Or maybe we can also assume that Renly was doing whatever the Master of Laws is supposed to do in the scenes he is not around in as he isn't a POV or close to any of the POV characters.  Moreover, we don't even know for sure what the Master of Laws job is explicitly

2. The fact that the Tyrells have ambitions hardly makes them Lannisters as everyone has ambitions in the series.  No different the Florents try to grab as much power as they can in Stannis's camp.  The only difference being Stannis gives away more power to the Florents than Renly gave to the Tyrells despite them giving him vastly less.  Thus by your own argument Stannis is even more a Florent puppet than Renly is a Tyrell puppet.

3. We know that House Swann stayed neutralish with the heir supporting Renly and another son supporting Joffrey along with the Redwynes staying neutral as Paxter's two sons were hostages. Hardly, some terrible failing on Renly's part especially compared to that of Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully two of which much more experienced and older lords.  Renly even have an individual travel all the way from the Vale to support him despite having no connection to the Vale and that being more than what Robb ever got from them.

4. He considered Dorne an ally, but we never see consider them an integral part of his plans.  It isn't like Robb expecting the Ironborn to attack Lannisport for him instead he just believed them to side with him.  Doran's involvement in the war was nothing to the degree that it didn't matter which side he supported.  

5. Stannis is equally a rebel and traitor that abandoned his brother to die and then started a rebellion on an unproven charge.  Renly's justification is equally that he is the king and Robb and Stannis are rebels with that being just as valid as Stannis's unproven charge. He has the high ground that he doesn't need Robb to win, while Robb needs Renly to win.  Despite all of Robb's victories in the long game he just didn't have the means to defeat Tywin unless he wanted to abandon half of his kingdom and hide in the North.  All your arguments here is suggesting why Robb is terrible king with nothing against Renly.  We see inside Renly's camp and we see no one disgruntled or angry about his slow pace besides Catelyn.  That was the purpose of the tournaments it worked to distract the men with bread and circuses.  There is a reason that Tyrion praises Renly's strategy.  

[bent branch]

Renly could not allow any of the children to live. To think that he could have allowed them to live, you would have to believe that Tywin and Cersei would have been okay with losing the throne. I don't think there is anyone who thinks that.

This aspect of Renly's declaring himself king is completely overlooked by those who think Renly was a great guy.

[redtree]

No, they'd die one by one without issue but not by execution because the Tyrells are too slick about PR. If Renly executed them, he'd be remember as a straight up usurper and kinslayer, worse than Tywin's deed to baby Aegon and Rhaenys
Remember that even Catelyn who had every reason to hate the Lannisters even doubted Stannis's claim about those children, let alone other people who are more neutral toward the Lannisters. There are no proof except Stannis's words who hid anyway in Dragonstone and only spreaded the truth when it was convenient for him. 

[Viking]

No, google Lambert Simnel