Is Jon really b*stard born?

[Gaz0680]

Now R + L = J is pretty much confirmed on the show ( well at least the L = J part), the question remains is Jon really a b*stard? Were Lyanna and his father (almost certainly Rhaegar) married before he was born?

I don't know about anyone else, but I for one really really hope he is. If he is not and is really the trueborn son with a rightful claim to the throne, it would be far too fairy tale - like for my liking and would further give weight to the notion that whether your parents are married or not at time of your birth actually matters. It seems the antithesis of what GRRM has been trying to show.

Jons entire storyline (being shunned because he is a b*stard, being kept different to the other Starks, treatment by Catelyn, never inheriting, not having family name, etc etc) is weakened greatly if he is suddenly discovered to be a trueborn Targaryen with legitimate claim to throne under Westerosi law. His whole character plot should be to show the ridiculousness of believing whether parents were wed at time of birth somehow determines the worth of a human being.

Even if he is Targaryen, Jon better still be a b*stard...and his deeds should show that being a b*stard doesn't really matter. I will be seriously disappointed in GRRM if we find out Rhaegar and Lyanna were married before he was born.

 

 

[Mandzipop]

It depends how they play it. If Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married, then I would expect the northern lords to still view him as a Stark. If they were married, then I can see them viewing him as a Targaryan.

The irony would be that all of his life Jon thought life was harsh because of his status and not being a true born. He wanted to be a true born son. When it happens it makes his life ten times more difficult and he'd wish he wasn't a true born son.

I can imagine that it would be something that George would do as it is bitter/sweet.

[jrod]

Have no way to know as of now if he is or isn't a bastard.  Lots of theories on if he is, how they would prove he isn't, etc.  But as of now the show has confirmed in the episode he is Lyanna's son, and their website has confirmed he is Rhaegar's son.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

Targaryens practiced polygamy a lot back in the day. Wouldn't be surprised if Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Legally, he may have had been pre-born legitimized by his crazy Grandfather, King Aerys II when Rheagar went to collect the Royal Armies and 3 Kingsguards to fight against Ned-Robert-Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully's alliance at the Tridend. He may have had it signed if there was one. It is important to note that Rheagar was still legally married to Princess Ellia of Dorne and had 2 living children by her when he left King's Landing and polygamy was outlawed by King Jachinearys (The Conciliator) so it had not been practiced for really since the original Conqueror. The key is this, The Kingsguard were protecting Lyanna and baby Jon at the Tower of Joy and it is their duty to protect the King. So, more info is needed at this time but it is pretty much considered that Jon was and is somehow a legit person by some means.

[Future Null Infinity]

it doesn't matter for me, Raeghar is his physical father but for me he will be always the son of Ned (the man who raised him)

[Iron Mother]

Lyanna and Rhaegar WERE married!  They were wed in the Old God tradition of the North (under the Weirwood tree).... she was not previously married, but Rhaegar was married and had children already with (forgot her name, from Dorne - Elia? Martell) under the New God tradition of the 7.  Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.  This whole thing is what started the war in the first place.  Sansa was told and believes the rumor Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna (the conversation she had with Littlefinger in the crypt below Winterfell).  But the fact is they were in love and married and she bore him a son AS Rhaegar was being slain at the Trident by Robert.

It's so odd, right, that every single account of Rhaegar by anyone that knew him suggests he would never kidnap and rape some woman.  Never.  And every single account of Ned Stark by anyone that knew him suggests he did not visit brothels and would not impregnate a bastard and bring it home to Winterfell.  It's also important to note he never even shared the truth with Catelyn Stark, his wife, that is how secret Jon's DNA had to be.

There was controversy I asked way back when ISN'T IT real with Sansa being married to Tyrion STILL EVEN NOW?  She married Ramsay under the old tradition and Tyrion under the new.  Ramsay is dead.  I believe they still area married (she and Tyrion).

However, the question posed if Jon is actually a bastard, I would say NO.  He's actually a Targaryen!  Since the tradition of Westeros says the father's name is adopted not the mother's name.  Jon's identity could be the most powerful in all Westeros since the North was generally for aeons considered almost a separate entity because of its' vast size.  His DNA would be a marriage of North and South which I am not sure has ever happened.

[The Arthur Smith]

18 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Lyanna and Rhaegar WERE married!  They were wed in the Old God tradition of the North (under the Weirwood tree).... she was not previously married, but Rhaegar was married and had children already with (forgot her name, from Dorne - Elia? Martell) under the New God tradition of the 7.  Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.  This whole thing is what started the war in the first place.  Sansa was told and believes the rumor Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna (the conversation she had with Littlefinger in the crypt below Winterfell).  But the fact is they were in love and married and she bore him a son AS Rhaegar was being slain at the Trident by Robert.

Any evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed? The Old God didn't practice polygamy like the old Valyrians, so they wouldn't marry under those customs.

18 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

It's so odd, right, that every single account of Rhaegar by anyone that knew him suggests he would never kidnap and rape some woman.  Never.  And every single account of Ned Stark by anyone that knew him suggests he did not visit brothels and would not impregnate a bastard and bring it home to Winterfell.  It's also important to note he never even shared the truth with Catelyn Stark, his wife, that is how secret Jon's DNA had to be.

That's how vary accounts work. Every eyeholder has their bias perspective view on Rhaegar's character. Robert said he's a rapist only cause he hates him with a vile passion. Barristain viewed him the opposite, but that's only cause he's a Targ loyalist and would hold them to his pedestal than giving the, credit for who they truly are. Oberyn hates him cause he betrayed and abandoned Elia. It's basically how it works and which accounts are true leave up to their own interpretation cause in the end, Rhaegar is dead.

18 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

There was controversy I asked way back when ISN'T IT real with Sansa being married to Tyrion STILL EVEN NOW?  She married Ramsay under the old tradition and Tyrion under the new.  Ramsay is dead.  I believe they still area married (she and Tyrion).

No. Sansa is now a Bolton widow. The whole reason why Sansa and Tyrion was able to get off their marriage is cause they haven't consummate. The consummation is the marking bonding of two parties. This is why Tywin was mad about Tyrion not consummating his marriage with Sansa. If Tyrion did, then the Lannister would have further advantage of the North. If both Sansa and Tyrion did not consummate, then their marriage is invalid and therefore, got an annulment - meaning the marriage never happen and not real. Thus, when Ramsay raped Sansa, their marriage has been seal. Sansa is fully married to a Bolton and her's with Tyrion never happen. That's how the marriage worked back then.

[The Arthur Smith]

We have yet to see if Jon was truly a Targaryen bastard or no. If the next season revealed Rhaegar took Lyanna as his second wife, then it would implied or confirmed Jon is not a bastard and thus, he has better claim than Dany to the IT.

[Ruhail]

Hes one either way.

[Grizzly A Mormont]

In the realm of 'Game of Thrones', I don't understand the rules of bastardization.

As I understood it, it means being born out of wedlock. If that is the case in Westeros, then he is still a bastard either way. In the case of  accepted polygamy, I would think that Rhaegar would have HAD to bring Lyanna and his son into his 'HOUSE' for Jon not to be a bastard.

 

Though I do think that GRRM's purposeful storyline is to further destroy any lasting reminants of todays societal perception that being born out of wedlock makes a child a bastard.  A child is born innocent. That is a major theme that should be taken from the "Game of Thrones' when it is all done

[Cron]

On 8/9/2016 at 7:02 PM, Gaz0680 said:

Now R + L = J is pretty much confirmed on the show ( well at least the L = J part), the question remains is Jon really a b*stard? Were Lyanna and his father (almost certainly Rhaegar) married before he was born?

I don't know about anyone else, but I for one really really hope he is. If he is not and is really the trueborn son with a rightful claim to the throne, it would be far too fairy tale - like for my liking and would further give weight to the notion that whether your parents are married or not at time of your birth actually matters. It seems the antithesis of what GRRM has been trying to show.

Jons entire storyline (being shunned because he is a b*stard, being kept different to the other Starks, treatment by Catelyn, never inheriting, not having family name, etc etc) is weakened greatly if he is suddenly discovered to be a trueborn Targaryen with legitimate claim to throne under Westerosi law. His whole character plot should be to show the ridiculousness of believing whether parents were wed at time of birth somehow determines the worth of a human being.

Even if he is Targaryen, Jon better still be a b*stard...and his deeds should show that being a b*stard doesn't really matter. I will be seriously disappointed in GRRM if we find out Rhaegar and Lyanna were married before he was born.

 

 

Very interesting points, I enjoyed reading it.

Personally, at this stage, I would not be surprised either way ("trueborn" or "not trueborn,"  legitimized by Aerys or not)

You may be on to something with the "too fairy tale" argument.  Certainly, GOT is VERY unconventional story-telling, and I wouldn't put almost anything past GRRM on this issue.

Jon's DNA surely matters, but I'm not sure whether he is "trueborn" or not will matter in the end, cuz I don't think regular rules or laws of succession wiill determine who sits on the Iron Throne in the end (ever since I read ADWD about 5 years ago, I've believed there will be no single winner of the Game of Thrones, I believe it will be a tri-archy, as is discussed in ADWD.  This will be three headed monarcy, the three heads of the dragon, ruling either by consensus or by vote (majority of two decides) if they disagree.  I predict the three will be Dany (for sure), Tyrion (for sure), and the third...not so sure.  Probably Jon, but maybe not.  A lot could depend on whether Young Griff is really Rhaegar's son (Aegon) or not, but of course Young Griff is not even in the show (at least not yet), so I'd say the third head of the tri-archy is something of a wild card.

[Scorpion92]

Who cares if he is trueborn or bastard, no one will give him the throne just because he said it or some crannogman lord confirmed it. Everything Jon gains in this story will be earned with some story power boosters here and there.

[A_Man_Is_No_One]

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were "married", Rhaegar was still married to Elia Martell so therefor Jon would still be a bastard, correct?

[El Guapo]

7 hours ago, A_Man_Is_No_One said:

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were "married", Rhaegar was still married to Elia Martell so therefor Jon would still be a bastard, correct?

Yes and no. It all depends on who you ask.

[Lurid Jester]

4 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Yes and no. It all depends on who you ask.

So the ToJ is in Dorn.  What's the Dornish policy on polygamy?  Maybe they were married in Dorn because the Dornish would recognize it as a lawful Union. 

[AugustusTheGreat]

5 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

So the ToJ is in Dorn.  What's the Dornish policy on polygamy?  Maybe they were married in Dorn because the Dornish would recognize it as a lawful Union. 

I dont think that each area is run like its own modern day country. And especially in a medieval set timeframe, it would be impossible to enforce. All they need is a priest of the 7 and they can get it done. 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

On 8/12/2016 at 8:58 PM, AugustusTheGreat said:

I dont think that each area is run like its own modern day country. And especially in a medieval set timeframe, it would be impossible to enforce. All they need is a priest of the 7 and they can get it done. 

Well Dorne runs on a cognatic succession system If I'm remembering correctly (Women inherit on the same grounds as men), while the rest of Westeros traditionally runs through a Agnatic-Cognatic succession system (Men inherit over Women no matter age, Women inherit if there are no eligible males), so who knows what other rules differ in their region. The crown has probably been a little lack when it comes to enforcing their laws in Dorne as Dorne was never totally conquered by the Targs and only came in through marriage ties. Like how the LP of Dorne is actually called "Prince".

[Lord Friendzone]

On 10. 8. 2016 at 10:03 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Legally, he may have had been pre-born legitimized by his crazy Grandfather, King Aerys II when Rheagar went to collect the Royal Armies and 3 Kingsguards to fight against Ned-Robert-Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully's alliance at the Tridend. He may have had it signed if there was one. It is important to note that Rheagar was still legally married to Princess Ellia of Dorne and had 2 living children by her when he left King's Landing and polygamy was outlawed by King Jachinearys (The Conciliator) so it had not been practiced for really since the original Conqueror. The key is this, The Kingsguard were protecting Lyanna and baby Jon at the Tower of Joy and it is their duty to protect the King. So, more info is needed at this time but it is pretty much considered that Jon was and is somehow a legit person by some means.

On the show Arthur said prince want them there but wasn't Viserys named King? Aerys named him befoe Rhaegar's children. Then they would have to follow him and not Jon. Maybe they were there out of respect to their friend.and follow his orders. Maybe they didn't know.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 12. 8. 2016 at 8:27 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Who cares if he is trueborn or bastard, no one will give him the throne just because he said it or some crannogman lord confirmed it. Everything Jon gains in this story will be earned with some story power boosters here and there.

People are focusing on him being bastard or not. Truth is that his actions will earn him things, Sam pushed him to be LC after his valiant effort against Wildlings invasion. Lady Mormont for his heroic or someone say stupidity at the battlefield. So basically someone will give him title, things but in a way he'll earn it. Not just beacuse he's kid from someone he's not going to sit on Iron Throne based on that. It will be because he's the best one to do so and voted by others.