Football: Reds Rising!!

[Philokles]

No way the rule would be upheld if it goes to CAS, which would probably be the first court to hear the case. It is more of an issue of whether Liverpool feel a potentially protracted and expensive legal battle is worth bothering with if FIFA take action after the Argyle game.

[ljkeane]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

 

It does look rather like playing the system to pick and choose when he plays

Why shouldn't he be able to pick and choose when he plays? It's not like he has a contract with the Cameroon national side, surely it should be up to the player whether he wants to play representative football or not. Of course if the international selectors feel he's not committed enough and don't want to pick him that's up to them.

[polishgenius]

3 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Why shouldn't he be able to pick and choose when he plays? It's not like he has a contract with the Cameroon national side, surely it should be up to the player whether he wants to play representative football or not. Of course if the international selectors feel he's not committed enough and don't want to pick him that's up to them.

This, basically. The player owes more loyalty to the club that pays his wages than the national team glory kickabout, and should be allowed to dedicate himself to his job. If he changes his mind, then it's up to those making that decision to decide if he should come back in, but it shouldn't be up to them whether he can do the job he's paid for. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, mormont said:

Here's the thing. There's no such thing as retirement from international football.

Not in any formal, official sense, anyway. What happens is that players say that they don't want to play and national FAs usually then don't call them up. But there's no procedure, no formal notification, nothing like that: it's just a case of respecting the player's wishes. Technically any registered player can be called up.

(You can disagree with that principle without pulling out the slavery analogies, by the way. Compulsion doesn't always = slavery.)

That's why players can 'un-retire' and make themselves available again, and change their mind as often as they like. Which is relevant because the thing that's unusual in this situation is the history. Matip made himself unavailable to Cameroon for the '10 AFCON (although at that time he was as yet uncapped at senior level) but then rediscovered his passion for the Cameroon team in time for the World Cup in Brazil. Shortly after he 'retired' at the tender age of 24, making himself unavailable for the AFCON again. It does look rather like playing the system to pick and choose when he plays, and if you play the system, you do lose goodwill and people tend to start enforcing the letter of the law. So the player isn't blameless here, IMO.

The 2010 AFCON had a somewhat different background though. He was busy finishing school and taking his exams at that time. So that was (understandably) somewhat more important to him. Somewhat clever and to bet his entire future on being a professional Footballer, and having a back up in case of an early career ending injury or so.

[Iskaral Pust]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

(You can disagree with that principle without pulling out the slavery analogies, by the way. Compulsion doesn't always = slavery.)

I know that's an inflammatory exaggeration, especially applied to a multimillionaire and on MLK day here in the US, but this is forced labor endorsed and enforced by the governing authority.  Bizarrely, it is being enforced cross-border on the citizen of another nation and legal resident of yet another nation so may legally be akin to human trafficking too.  Worst of all, the governing authority has no democratic or statutory mandate, has been proven to be grossly corrupt, and has an ugly and obvious conflict of interest here: FIFA only cares about the local FA and the marketing value of international football.  That's before I even touch the specific problems of African football like personal danger and implicit support for corrupt & exploitative regimes.

My greatest problem with the whole situation is that FIFA have no business compelling players to play international football.  The hypocrisy is staggering and I don't know why Germany, England and the CAS allow this.  If players can opt out then it wouldn't bother me so much.  The "retirement" exception was an acceptable tacit opt-out up until it was ignored at the player's expense.

At this point I'd be happy to see Matip play against Plymouth and force a decision on this where the consequence for Liverpool is relatively low.  So long as it would not allow FIFA to hand down a huge ban on Matip or a transfer ban on Liverpool.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, ljkeane said:

Why shouldn't he be able to pick and choose when he plays?

Well, international football isn't organised for the benefit of individual footballers, for one thing.

I'd prefer internationals to be done voluntarily myself. But I'm just pointing out that this probably isn't a random occurrence. If a player seems to be playing the system, then the FA in question might be a bit narky in return. After all, if players can look after their own interests, and clubs can look after their own interests, it would be odd to say that football associations aren't allowed to look after their own interests.

[ljkeane]

2 minutes ago, mormont said:

 

After all, if players can look after their own interests, and clubs can look after their own interests, it would be odd to say that football associations aren't allowed to look after their own interests.

Well that depends if 'looking after their own interests' involves violating what should be some fairly fundamental labour rights.

[baxus]

11 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I know that's an inflammatory exaggeration, especially applied to a multimillionaire and on MLK day here in the US, but this is forced labor endorsed and enforced by the governing authority.  Bizarrely, it is being enforced cross-border on the citizen of another nation and legal resident of yet another nation so may legally be akin to human trafficking too.

In order to play for Cameroon national team, Matip must hold Cameroon citizenship too, so Cameroon is enforcing something on their citizen living abroad which is a rather different picture from one you're trying to paint and is definitely not akin to human trafficking.

The system as it is has its flaws, but let's not go overboard with slavery and trafficking analogies.

[Calibandar]

I feel this thread did not spend enough time talking about how Man City got trampled by Everton, and what a highly problematic and overrated team this is. Even Pep can't help this club.

[mormont]

12 hours ago, ljkeane said:

Well that depends if 'looking after their own interests' involves violating what should be some fairly fundamental labour rights.

That is the question, and as yet it's unanswered.

[Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Calibandar said:

I feel this thread did not spend enough time talking about how Man City got trampled by Everton, and what a highly problematic and overrated team this is. Even Pep can't help this club.

I wouldn't write off City just yet. This is a club with huge resources and a quality manager. Obviously there are issues that need sorting out and Pep will need more than just half a season to get things right. Although they got off to a dream start, I always felt that this would be Pep's biggest challenge as the City squad is 1) not as good as either the Barca or Bayern squads that Pep had and 2) They aren't head and shoulders above the rest of the league and thus face much stiffer competition. With Barca and Bayern, they could play at 70%-80% and still win most league games.

[Rorshach]

I was only watching the second half on Sunday (family visit), so I've got an incomplete picture, but what struck me was how little penetration City played with. Except for the individual quality of the players, they sort of looked like us from last year - all moving the ball and no attempt at getting in behind or stretching defences. Sure, we contributed by staying deep and working hard, but a team of City's quality should be able to break through and at least create chances. 

The second problem, which also mirrored ours from last season, is that when they're caught on a break, they are extremely vulnerable. Most players have already moved into attacking positions, so there is a lot of space at the back. Add to that that their CBs aren't all that great one-on-one, and that Bravo isn't top drawer, and you have a problem. 

The issues in attack I think are temporary, or game-by-game - most games, they will break through. The talent they have up front is immense. At the back, though, those problems look more long-term. I would argue that a whole new back four and a keeper is needed (perhaps save Stones, if he can get a leader beside him - I still think he can be good), plus perhaps N'golo Kante. 

[Consigliere]

Gundogan picking up a season ending injury was a big blow in addition to Fernandinho, who keeps getting himself sent off, being banned. The defensive cover in midfield was non-existent. Yaya still has something to offer going forward but isn't interested in tracking back.

[Calibandar]

Well what I've noticed is that Stones is still poor and extremely overrated.

I didn't get what the fuss was about when he was at Everton to be honest, so it's not City related.

But City wanted him and he certainly didn't get better. Then there's Otamendi who's also far from convincing.

Not sure the keeper's good for this league either. Kolarov, also problematic at the back.

On top of that, De Bruyne is having a very quiet season so far. 

But this is all individual assessment which is not what the problem is IMO. I don't actually know what the problem is but there is something about this club, or if you like this team that they have assembled over the past 5 years, that just doesn't work. Regardless of manager.

There's always this sense that they should be great given what they have collected, and they're not.

 

[MisterOJ]

34 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Well what I've noticed is that Stones is still poor and extremely overrated.

I didn't get what the fuss was about when he was at Everton to be honest, so it's not City related.

But City wanted him and he certainly didn't get better. Then there's Otamendi who's also far from convincing.

Not sure the keeper's good for this league either. Kolarov, also problematic at the back.

On top of that, De Bruyne is having a very quiet season so far. 

But this is all individual assessment which is not what the problem is IMO. I don't actually know what the problem is but there is something about this club, or if you like this team that they have assembled over the past 5 years, that just doesn't work. Regardless of manager.

There's always this sense that they should be great given what they have collected, and they're not.

 

City has won two championships in the past 5 years, so obviously something has worked over that period of time.

[Calibandar]

That's a little too easy isn't it. The last 3 seasons have shown incredible inconsistency, with them being quite shit for a fair amount of games. United for instance has won two titles the last 6 years as well, and we're not pretending that there is/was not a structural issue there.

 

[Philokles]

City's keepers, defenders and central midfielders are either not good enough, injury prone, past it or unsuited to Guardiola with the exception of Fernandinho - who has picked up a red card habit instead. Serious questions need to be asked about Begiristain's recruitment.

[Iskaral Pust]

City have an excellent front 4/5 with good back-ups, and they have a very strong Fernandinho and Gundogan in midfield.  Their defense has suffered from poor recruiting as it aged, e.g. Mangala, Otamendi and Stones.  Clichy, Kompany, Hart, Zabaleta was the backbone of a very good defense, but three of those have declined with age and three of them don't look suited to Pep's style -- I can't tell if Kompany is suited.  There's no shame in not having the total-football capability of Philip Lahm or the sweeper capability of Hugo Loris.

At the moment they are underperforming their resources and ability of the individual players.  A lot of that is Pep trying to force the club to adapt his style when it does not suit the defenders he has.  Maybe he'll be right in the long run to force the club to a new generation of players.  In the short run, the transition looked easy in September but is very bogged down right now.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Well, the keeper was Guardiola's choice (not his first, he would have prefered ter Stegen afaik). The central defenders are a different story. Stones really seems to lack the quality. And it's not like there was no good ball moving defender was on the market (*cough* Matip *cough*). But their central defenders have been a problem for a while now. Esp. since Kompany seems to be unable to play 7 games without picking up an injury.

de Bruyne's production has cooled off (especially compared to his start into the EPL campaign), Gündogan's injury was a tough blow, but their form has become a bit shaky even with him still in the line up. Sterling has been the individual performer who has improved his form under Guardiola. His second high profile signing Sane has failed to establish himself thus far.

My guess (whatever it's worth) is that Guardiola overestimated the quality he will have at his disposal. Let's see who he signs next year. Improving the defense seems to be the top priority.

[Iskaral Pust]

KDB is definitely off the boil a bit, but Silva, KDB, Sterling and Aguero is a top class front four.  I don't think anyone in the PL could claim to have better.  Sane, Iheanacho, Navas are decent back-ups and alternate options.  Gundogan and Fernandinho are very good central midfielders, and Yaya as a back-up is still better than Kevin Stewart or Lucas.  Only Arsenal have real depth at CM.  Chelsea, Utd, Liverpool and Spurs look off rhythm if they a first choice midfielder.

City have enough quality in their front six to be much more successful if they just set up the team to protect the back five and allow them to play in a defensive shape that actually suits them.   And then improve that back five with new recruits and some sort of magic wand for Stones.

It's a team that would do much better sitting deep and counter-attacking at pace -- which is when they've looked best -- but possession football with a high line gets risky for them.