Heresy 195 and the Mists of Time

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm almost embarrassed to say this, as I can appreciate that this is totally ludicrous speculation on my part, but I have a suspicion that the show's weird chronology that places the NK's creation before the Pact, and centuries before the LN, is because the show isn't going to bother with the Green Men, and has taken their role - unnatural warriors created to defend the weirwood, as I interpret them - and foisted that role onto their "Night King."

It really wouldn't surprise me either. Ultimately what the mummers' stripped down version of the story is telling us in a very simplistic fashion is that out there there are changelings, not just wargs/skinchangers and the walking dead, but men who are or were allied to the tree-huggers against other men.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Interestingly, Old Nan has nothing to say about the Pact and Maester Luwin has nothing to say about the Last Hero.

I'm still sticking with the heresy that the Pact may have followed the Long Night rather than preceding it. 

The story that seems the most apocryphal to me is the Last Hero story.  It very much smacks of a very simplistic, archetypal telling of probably something that was much more complex in reality.  In other words, I find it very doubtful that one man helped end the Long Night.

I've wondered if the Last Hero and his thirteen companions might be constellations which slowly disappeared in the night sky as a cloud of ash gradually covered it.

[Black Crow]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The story that seems the most apocryphal to me is the Last Hero story.  It very much smacks of a very simplistic, archetypal telling of probably something that was much more complex in reality.  In other words, I find it very doubtful that one man helped end the Long Night.

 

Depends whether he was waving a white flag at the time 

[hiemal]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Interestingly, Old Nan has nothing to say about the Pact and Maester Luwin has nothing to say about the Last Hero.

I'm still sticking with the heresy that the Pact may have followed the Long Night rather than preceding it. 

Since the general mythology as I understand it has the Last Hero searching long and hard to find the Children before the Battle for the Dawn I have to agree with you.

Spitball:

Perhaps every aspect of the Age of Heroes timeline (and perhaps all but the most immediate) is suspect, and the maesters of the Citadel are the primary culprits. With their antipathy towards magic and the disruption it brings I could see them using their influence to manipulate history to serve their own goals. They don't control the minstrels (nor all of the educated or their own, witness Barth and Marwyn) so they can't completely call the tune, but they can exert a lot of passive influence over the "educated" of Westeros by peddling their own version of history.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, hiemal said:

Since the general mythology as I understand it has the Last Hero searching long and hard to find the Children before the Battle for the Dawn I have to agree with you.

Spitball:

Perhaps every aspect of the Age of Heroes timeline (and perhaps all but the most immediate) is suspect, and the maesters of the Citadel are the primary culprits. With their antipathy towards magic and the disruption it brings I could see them using their influence to manipulate history to serve their own goals. They don't control the minstrels (nor all of the educated or their own, witness Barth and Marwyn) so they can't completely call the tune, but they can exert a lot of passive influence over the "educated" of Westeros by peddling their own version of history.

The spit-balling probably isn't too far adrift of what's going on. Its important to understand the limitations of runic inscriptions - and the Pictish standing stones of my own country. Effectively all that they ever tell us is that Queen X turned up her toes here [the Picts were apparently matriarchal], the Saxons [read Andals] got beaten here at Nechtansmere, and King Y ruled here. Except in the case of Nechtansmere which is admitted by Saxon sources there is no context for any of these and at a very basic level we have no idea whether Queen X came before King Y or the other way about, or whether they were related. 

In real terms the historical process is that Andal Septons wrote down the legends - as told by the likes of Old Nan and the ballad singers - which have no historical context beyond "thousands of years ago" and now the maesters in the Citadel are saying that myths and legends may be all very interesting but they aint history.

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In real terms the historical process is that Andal Septons wrote down the legends - as told by the likes of Old Nan and the ballad singers - which have no historical context beyond "thousands of years ago" and now the maesters in the Citadel are saying that myths and legends may be all very interesting but they aint history.

...and history is written by the victors.

[Black Crow]

33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

...and history is written by the victors.

Oh absolutely, and any bias aside they never have the full story from the other side. It isn't their history and in all honesty its going to be a curiosity rather than a true record.

[ravenous reader]

On 1/25/2017 at 5:15 PM, Voice said:

 

Posted January 23 · Report post

Oh and @Sly Wren and @Voice, I found this beauty of a quote:

The great fire that burned atop the Sharp Point watchtower at the end of Massey’s Hook reminded him of the ruby she wore at her throat, and when the world turned red at dawn and sunset the drifting clouds turned the same color as the silks and satins of her rustling gowns.

Maybe we can be friends again? LoL

LOL! Yes of course my lightbringing friend. 

I'm pretty sure I quoted that same passage to you several times o'er the years when attempting to convey my thoughts as to redness of Dawn's burning. 

Hi @Voice and @LmL --

While I was doing an in-depth quasi-poetic investigation of the word 'glimmer,' prompted by a query on another thread, I happened on the following quote which of course reminded me of you two  and the eternal question of the color of the sword(s):

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars, and did not twinkle, though sometimes it flared up bright and sometimes dwindled down to no more than a distant spark, dull and faint.

Which in turn reminds me:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

Were my sons no more than a lesson for a king, then? Davos felt his mouth tighten.

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze.

And then my favorite, connecting Dawn to Bran's sacrifice, in particular:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard V

Arya bit her lip. "What will Bran do when he's of age?"

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

"He was going to be a knight," Arya was saying now. "A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?"

I don't know if he can still be a (k)night -- but he can surely be a dawn...

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

While I was doing an in-depth quasi-poetic investigation of the word 'glimmer,' prompted by a query on another thread, I happened on the following quote which of course reminded me of you two  and the eternal question of the color of the sword(s):

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars, and did not twinkle, though sometimes it flared up bright and sometimes dwindled down to no more than a distant spark, dull and faint.

 

WHOA! That's a fabulous catch!

And, to go along with the question of timelines (sort of)--that passage opens the chapter where Jon captures/meets Ygritte. Which sets up a potential parallel with the Night's King--he fell (fallen star???) in part due to a woman.Jon, however, chooses the Watch.

And if you see a guy wearing a "The Night's King was the Fallen Star!!!" T shirt running towards you, brace yourself. That's @Voice. And he's about to hug the stuffing out of you. The quote above and the context of the chapter it's in fits really, really well with his "how Ice became Dawn" theory. Which, at least in theory, fits with the timeline questions on this thread. Hopefully.

ETA: @LmL: I missed that notice--and HA! We're always friends. Unless you've been lulling me into complacency.

And that quote is an excellent catch.

[Voice]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi @Voice and @LmL --

While I was doing an in-depth quasi-poetic investigation of the word 'glimmer,' prompted by a query on another thread, I happened on the following quote which of course reminded me of you two  and the eternal question of the color of the sword(s):

Which in turn reminds me:

And then my favorite, connecting Dawn to Bran's sacrifice, in particular:

I don't know if he can still be a (k)night -- but he can surely be a dawn...

 

Oh yes. Welcome to team Dawn Burns Red. @Sly Wren is a founding member.  

There are many more passages where those came from. Be on the lookout to mentions of Jon at Dawn, or the "sun rising" at Winterfell (easy dot to connect to the end of the Long Night, no?). Sun Rose, Son Rose imagery abounds. 

In the books, we have a Sword of the Morning... in real life, we have a Star (Sun/Son) of the Morning.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

WHOA! That's a fabulous catch!

And, to go along with the question of timelines (sort of)--that passage opens the chapter where Jon captures/meets Ygritte. Which sets up a potential parallel with the Night's King--he fell (fallen star???) in part due to a woman.Jon, however, chooses the Watch.

And if you see a guy wearing a "The Night's King was the Fallen Star!!!" T shirt running towards you, brace yourself. That's @Voice. And he's about to hug the stuffing out of you. The quote above and the context of the chapter it's in fits really, really well with his "how Ice became Dawn" theory. Which, at least in theory, fits with the timeline questions on this thread. Hopefully.

ETA: @LmL: I missed that notice--and HA! We're always friends. Unless you've been lulling me into complacency.

And that quote is an excellent catch.

 

LOL! And yes. I actually really did just get a Starfall t-shirt for Christmas. I'll have to upload a pic to the Hearth. (It's kinda awesome)

Here's the Ice=Dawn thread if anyone is a-curious:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/386/ice-dawn-updated

[Brad Stark]

Another interesting part of the Sam quote:

Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books... either they have crumbled all away or ... well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. 

 

Now, if he thinks the oldest list he found is about 2500 years old, this makes no sense.  2500 almost certainly counts as really old.  I'd think 500 years counts as really old.  So where are all the books older than 500 years?  If it implies they never existed,  what is another possible history?

[Black Crow]

36 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Another interesting part of the Sam quote:

Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books... either they have crumbled all away or ... well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. 

 

Now, if he thinks the oldest list he found is about 2500 years old, this makes no sense.  2500 almost certainly counts as really old.  I'd think 500 years counts as really old.  So where are all the books older than 500 years?  If it implies they never existed,  what is another possible history?

It does, but as I pointed out earlier its more than likely that some of the stuff he's reading, including the infamous "oldest list" isn't actually as old as the information it carries but is a transcript of a now lost original - copied precisely because the original was crumbling at the edges and not likely to last much longer. This happened all the time in real life and I'm sure I can recall Sam mentioning it on relation to other documents.

[LynnS]

46 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Another interesting part of the Sam quote:

Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books... either they have crumbled all away or ... well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. 

 

Now, if he thinks the oldest list he found is about 2500 years old, this makes no sense.  2500 almost certainly counts as really old.  I'd think 500 years counts as really old.  So where are all the books older than 500 years?  If it implies they never existed,  what is another possible history?

I think it's possible that some of these older records are housed at the Citadel.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that some of these older records are housed at the Citadel.

Ah but cold preserves, which is why Maester Aemon packed so many rare and precious volumes from the library at Castle Black when he set off for the Citadel

[Brad Stark]

It is possible older works were transcribed to transported elsewhere,  but this is directly at odds with what Sam said. 

If he were aware of transcribing older books, he'd have no reason to doubt there existence, or at least have phrased this:

Some of the older books are falling to pieces, we need to make new copies. The pages crumble when I try and turn them.  And the really old books... some of them could have crumbled away, and the ones that were copied, well, it could be that the original versions never existed.

[Black Crow]

I've re-checked the passage you're referring to and as ever context is everything. Sam is asked about the Others and responds that he's been able to find surprisingly little. The point he's making about the books is simply that the Long Night happened before the Andals tooled up and started writing stuff down.

[Black Crow]

On 2/2/2017 at 7:22 PM, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that some of these older records are housed at the Citadel.

What may be interesting here, as in the Citadel, is that Sam may not find some lost eyewitness account of the day they hanged Black Robin, but he may find some reasoned texts setting out, with reasons, exactly why the legends [and timelines] are mince - the stuff only hinted at by Hoster Blackwood and Rodrik Harlaw.

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

What may be interesting here, as in the Citadel, is that Sam may not find some lost eyewitness account of the day they hanged Black Robin, but he may find some reasoned texts setting out, with reasons, exactly why the legends [and timelines] are mince - the stuff only hinted at by Hoster Blackwood and Rodrik Harlaw.

There is that master key now in faceless man Pate's possession and they've been formally introduced.  So unless Sam breaks his vow of silence to Coldhands and says anything about Bran beyond the Wall; I think he's safe.  I am hoping for a secret library.  LOL.  The restricted section that Marwyn occassionally rifles through for rare texts and secrets off to the Reader.

[Black Crow]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is that master key now in faceless man Pate's possession and they've been formally introduced.  So unless Sam breaks his vow of silence to Coldhands and says anything about Bran beyond the Wall; I think he's safe.  I am hoping for a secret library.  LOL.  The restricted section that Marwyn occassionally rifles through for rare texts and secrets off to the Reader.

Oh, I'm expecting Sam to discover something significant. After all that's the point of [from a literary perspective] of sending him to the Citadel in the first place, but I'm expectin.g it to be something more comprehensive than an old manuscript  account of say a battle with the blue-eyed lot. Rather I'm expecting revelations and explanations

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Sam may not find some lost eyewitness account of the day they hanged Black Robin, but he may find some reasoned texts setting out, with reasons, exactly why the legends [and timelines] are mince

Anything's possible, but the odds aren't good. 

This is a pre-science culture and the maesters, judging by what we've heard in both the canon and the World book, are not just routinely wrong, they're often spectacularly wrong.

It was Maester Luwin who said with absolute confidence that magic does not work at all any more (but we know for sure that Varamyr has always been a strong skinchanger)... that the CotF were all dead (I'm waving hi at Leaf)... that the Others never existed (just as wrong as he could possibly be).  This sort of inadvertent hilarity reminds me of the similarly confident assertions made by those in another place on this very site. 

Or, in the World book, we have the first page of the first chapter, which informs us the world is perhaps 500,000 years old --- only off by four orders of magnitude!  It then proceeds to such skeptical remarks as:

Quote

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients... does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity

But Sam, who met and slew an Other and watched it melt to death when stabbed by dragonglass, would get quite a hearty laugh out of that. I'm afraid the Citadel is about the last place Sam should go if he wants to find the truth, with the limited exception of Marwyn. 

Best results come not from questioning that the timeline is a long one -- a thing Sam certainly never does, in stating "thousands of years" passed between the Long Night and Andal invasion -- but rather, questioning the literal truth of some of the myths. 

Just because someone in the canon says something like "the Black Gate is as old as the Wall" does not make it so.  It only means that that person said it, and it's up to us to assess how accurate that person was.  My guess for instance is that Coldhands was right when he said that to Sam and therefore Sam was right too, but that's as far as I could go.

While some myths are largely accurate (the Others, for instance, do closely parallel Old Nan's account) that's not always the case (she was wrong about the giants being manlike and having huge swords).  So the lesson of the Sealord's cat is a good one to keep in mind.