felice Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 44 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: My worry is simply this: while punching Nazis strikes me as the most enjoyable political pass-time ever, this has the potential to escalate. It's a short step from punching Nazis, to Nazis punching leftists, to both sides organising themselves You think Nazis won't organise themselves or attack their enemies/scapegoats as long as the left remains sufficiently pacifist? 44 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: No-one wants a re-run of the Spanish Civil War here. A re-run of the Spanish Civil War would be preferable to a re-run of the fall of the Weimar Republic, though obviously it would be far better to have neither if we can possibly avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squab Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 55 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: My worry is simply this: while punching Nazis strikes me as the most enjoyable political pass-time ever, this has the potential to escalate. It's a short step from punching Nazis, to Nazis punching leftists, to both sides organising themselves, to Weimar-style street fighting. Once you go down the route of political violence, you don't know where you will end up. No-one wants a re-run of the Spanish Civil War here. And after being punched he tweeted "If law enforcement can't protect us from antifa assaults we will begin protecting ourselves". And considering everyone has been cheering it and rubbing it in, I assume now all the white nationalists are armed and looking for revenge. Great work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 37 minutes ago, Squab said: And after being punched he tweeted "If law enforcement can't protect us from antifa assaults we will begin protecting ourselves". And considering everyone has been cheering it and rubbing it in, I assume now all the white nationalists are armed and looking for revenge. Great work Do you...really think that they weren't doing this already? That they were otherwise totally peaceful, happy people espousing their philosophy of ethnic cleansing without the idea that they wanted to actually get into violence? That those swastikas and 3x increase in hate crimes since Trump got elected was just a random coincidence? The way I see it is that for the most part, the left has been the one getting actually punched. From a protester in a Trump rally to another person who supported Trump and got punched because he was black, from the swastikas and crosses and angry rants at muslims in stores and on airplanes - the leftists are the ones that are getting hit, and have largely been taking it, and taking it, and taking it. And this time, someone said no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Stark Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Do you...really think that they weren't doing this already? That they were otherwise totally peaceful, happy people espousing their philosophy of ethnic cleansing without the idea that they wanted to actually get into violence? That those swastikas and 3x increase in hate crimes since Trump got elected was just a random coincidence? The way I see it is that for the most part, the left has been the one getting actually punched. From a protester in a Trump rally to another person who supported Trump and got punched because he was black, from the swastikas and crosses and angry rants at muslims in stores and on airplanes - the leftists are the ones that are getting hit, and have largely been taking it, and taking it, and taking it. And this time, someone said no. So all these leftists that are assaulting Trump supporters, lighting their hair on fire, destroying property and the like are doing so as some sort of self defense mechanism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Trump White House abruptly halts Obamacare ads http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/trump-white-house-obamacare-ads-234245 Former ACA administrator sounds off on the GOP’s “unpatriotic” attempted Obamacare “sabotage.” https://newrepublic.com/minutes/140156/former-aca-administrator-sounds-off-gops-unpatriotic-attempted-obamacare-sabotage Primary Concerns Episode 42: How to Stop Obamacare Sabotage Andy Slavitt saved the Affordable Care Act; here's how he hopes to keep Donald Trump from destroying it. https://newrepublic.com/article/140134/primary-concerns-episode-42-stop-obamacare-sabotage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, Samantha Stark said: So all these leftists that are assaulting Trump supporters, lighting their hair on fire, destroying property and the like are doing so as some sort of self defense mechanism? I didn't say that (and am pretty skeptical about all the leftist lighting other people's hair on fire), but I am saying that when you get attacked as a group, it is not particularly surprising when people start attacking back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Cracked asked two half-jews if it's okay to punch a nazi. The answer may surprise you! Quote K: I'm not going to pretend I didn't enjoy watching him get punched. Or that I didn't watch it loop for a solid 15 minutes. I'm also not going to act superior for thinking you shouldn't punch them. In the grand scheme of things, when karma sees you punch a Nazi, it probably shrugs, fights back a smile, and says, "Tsk-tsk, oh you." Morally speaking, I can't muster the will to be against smacking the smirk off a Nazi, and that's not the hill I want to die on. I'm more concerned about whether this kind of thing breeds more Nazis and more douchey little haircuts. The carefully manufactured victimhood of the white supremacists / white nationalists / Nazis holds that "White men are under attack." Richard Spencer literally (lhitlerally) says he wants a homeland for the "dispossessed white race," as if whites are refugees from the trauma of, I don't know, having to see a Jewish person and a black person at a Costco or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Trump tells GOP he thought about leaving ObamaCare alone http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316344-trump-tells-gop-he-thought-about-leaving-obamacare-alone Pence in leaked audio: There will be 'full evaluation' of voter fraud http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/316437-pence-in-leaked-audio-there-will-be-full-evaluation-on-voter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Quote Cracked asked two half-jews if it's okay to punch a nazi. The answer may surprise you! That sums it up nicely. I'm not going to encourage anyone to engage in violence. However, I'm also not going to beat my breast about Nazi getting punched. And if the local DA happens to decide not to prosecute, I'm not going to call his/her office up in outrage and demand the puncher be sent to jail. What this incident really made me think of was that it'd be very bad if some kind of official was the one punched, say a Cabinet member, or Bannon or someone. That's the kind of thing that could be used by the right wing thugs as a crack down excuse. Really what's going to happen here is the Nazi is going to fundraise off this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Quote Caligula, the mad Roman emperor, infamously appointed his horse Incitatus to the Roman Senate, and that has been for millennia a byword for cracked authoritarian action. But we now know what would happen if Caligula appointed his horse to the Senate if the modern Republican Party happened to be in the majority there: first the Republicans would say that they didn’t want to get into disputes about the Emperor’s personnel choices, and then they’d quickly see how the presence of the horse could help justify dismantling regulations in the horse-chariot industry. http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/orwells-1984-and-trumps-america?intcid=mod-latest ORWELL’S “1984” AND TRUMP’S AMERICA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 6 hours ago, larrytheimp said: no one needs to advocate it. They can just kind of turn a blind eye, or say "don't we have bigger fish to fry than the dude that just punched Richard Spencer?" QFT. I've seen this debate go for several rounds on Twitter already and all I can think is, I don't care. Richard Spencer getting punched does not even crack the top 100 most significant things that happened in the US that day. Some Nazi asshole got a whack in the face, which didn't seem to do him any actual damage. He did not stop advocating his filth. Nothing changed one way or the other. The incident probably didn't do the anti-fascist cause much good, but it did not do one iota of damage either and nobody can produce a scintilla of evidence that it did. It was trivial. The continuing handwringing over its abstract significance for free speech etc. strikes me as the very definition of, as sologdin might put it, a bourgeois obsession with questions of propriety. You people live in a country where the President is suggesting that people should be tortured, not for information, but just to punish them. Where he is censoring government agencies. Where he is slashing healthcare. Where people's lives are at stake. Some Nazi dickhead got punched. Who cares? I've seen a lot of people claiming that Trump is distracting you from this or that. Mostly, that isn't true: it's all important. But this is you distracting yourselves with a bit of utter trivia. Knock it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorn Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 hours ago, felice said: A re-run of the Spanish Civil War would be preferable to a re-run of the fall of the Weimar Republic, though obviously it would be far better to have neither if we can possibly avoid it. Actually, the final years of Weimar Republic were marked with brownshirts and Red Front punching (and stabbing, and shooting) each other in the streets of German cities. If the Communists had tried working with the Social Democrats as part of the system instead of trying to beat the Nazis at their own game, things might have gone differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 In associated news, the Doomsday Clock now sits at two-and-a-half minutes to midnight. Worst since the 1950s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: LtI, I've wondered about that too. I still don't think punching someone who isn't directly physically threatening you or someone else is proper. Scott, In what world are nazis not directly (physically) threatening a lot of people by their mere existence? Of course at the current state of the US the small minority of actual nazis is a small problem compared to the threats to the citizens of the US and the rest of the world coming from the white house at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Just curious as to how far people think you should go in fighting back against those that hold such hateful and dangerous ideals? I mean a punch in the face is not going to make a difference really. Should a more violent approach be taken or should the government start cracking down on such groups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 6 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: My worry is simply this: while punching Nazis strikes me as the most enjoyable political pass-time ever, this has the potential to escalate. It's a short step from punching Nazis, to Nazis punching leftists, to both sides organising themselves, to Weimar-style street fighting. Once you go down the route of political violence, you don't know where you will end up. No-one wants a re-run of the Spanish Civil War here. I, with two children at home, most assuredly do not want this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 10 minutes ago, snake said: Just curious as to how far people think you should go in fighting back against those that hold such hateful and dangerous ideals? I mean a punch in the face is not going to make a difference really. Should a more violent approach be taken or should the government start cracking down on such groups? Same as with any other potentially terrorist group. Punching individuals isn't a workable solution. Observation and intelligence gathering, and communicating to others about them, seems to make more sense. And of course as a final measure intervention by government. The drawback is that the powers of the surveillance state needed to do that is likely not worth the danger they pose. And of course, especially for conservative and reactionary groups, historically governments are very likely to turn a blind eye anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwalker Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 2 hours ago, mormont said: I've seen a lot of people claiming that Trump is distracting you from this or that. Mostly, that isn't true: it's all important. But this is you distracting yourselves with a bit of utter trivia. Knock it off. Yeah, that escalated quickly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 34 minutes ago, Seli said: Scott, In what world are nazis not directly (physically) threatening a lot of people by their mere existence? Of course at the current state of the US the small minority of actual nazis is a small problem compared to the threats to the citizens of the US and the rest of the world coming from the white house at this point. Okay, as quite a few have pointed out Spencer continues to speak. The punching is not stopping him and may be making him more bold, should activists kill him? I ask because once violence is viewed as a legitimate tool how long will it be before killing people who disagree with you is also justified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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