US Politics: Mueller....Mueller....Mueller...

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

And our response here is to say -- they aren't paying enough for NATO so let us drop out.

 Never said that, nor do I advocate it. I simply said that I believe it is a reasonable expectation for them to foot the lion's share of the bill for such a defense.

What other country does this? The Russians have 10 military bases outside the borders of their nation. We have 125 +. This is not an economically viable projection of power. Whether or not it is ideologically defensible or not can be debated, but the first concern trumps the second.

[DireWolfSpirit]

38 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I suppose my point of view is as pie-in-the-sky as yours is gloom and doom, but that's my default at the end of the day. I refuse to believe that we are this collectively stupid, at least for any prolonged period of time. I can also allow for the fact that I could very well be wrong.    

Ummm it appears this nation is collectively that stupid. This nation elected Donald Trump. Now they get to own it. We have the exact leadership we collectively deserve. The Orange horror show is the idiot the babbling masses picked. The bill is now due and we will now pay that price, thanks to our own collective irresponsibility. Its almost tragically karmic, but we brought this on our own doorstep with zenophobic, homophobic motives. Were not getting a do over, the ballots were cast by Americans.

By best measure of coping is to just consider myself a political refugee here in this occupied nation.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Ummm it appears this nation is collectively that stupid. This nation elected Donald Trump. Now they get to own it. We have the exact leadership we collectively deserve. The Orange horror show is the idiot the babbling masses picked. The bill is now due and we will now pay that price, thanks to our own collective irresponsibility. Its almost tragically karmic, but we brought this on our own doorstep with zenophobic, homophobic motives. Were not getting a do over, the ballots were cast by Americans.

By best measure of coping is to just consider myself a political refugee here in this occupied nation.

 

Problem is we all get to own it. The majority of the voting public did not vote for this grifter. Unfortunately we haven't bothered to amend an archaic electoral procedure that has once again bitten us on the ass.

[LongRider]

13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

We have 125 +.

Try somewhere around 700 to 800 and they circle the globe.  American builds it's empire that way.  Here's an article about how many there are in the world published in 2015.  Yes, it's from the Nation, so what, the information about how many bases there are isn't well known and whether one agrees with the Nation's POV it's still good info to have and to try to wrap ones mind around.  

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-united-states-probably-has-more-foreign-military-bases-than-any-other-people-nation-or-empire-in-history/

[The Mance]

1 minute ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Try somewhere around 700 to 800 and they circle the globe.  American builds it's empire that way. 

Right.  At this point our foreign bases are at least as much about facilitating our force projection around the globe as they are about "protecting" the countries those bases are in.   I mean, sure, it works out well financially for many of the host countries, having the US bear the brunt of military defense in and around their country.  But, really, the advantage is ours for having literally the entire world under the umbrella of our armed forces.

[DireWolfSpirit]

You dont need to qualify if being from the "The Nation". They have been seriously committed to quality investigative journalism for well over a hundred years. Just because they editorialize from a left perspective, there is no need to qualify anything, especially in this age of rampant fake news and a CIC who apparently uses that fake news for his intel. Voices like The Nation, MotherJones and Democracy Now should rightly be viewed as voices of reason by the adults in the room.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Try somewhere around 700 to 800 and they circle the globe.  American builds it's empire that way.  Here's an article about how many there are in the world published in 2015.  Yes, it's from the Nation, so what, the information about how many bases there are isn't well known and whether one agrees with the Nation's POV it's still good info to have and to try to wrap ones mind around.  

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-united-states-probably-has-more-foreign-military-bases-than-any-other-people-nation-or-empire-in-history/

I think they are counting "former sites" in their total there. Either way, the point still stands. Russia has the second most foreign military bases at 10. We have by an order of magnitude the most bases on foreign soil. We spend more on Defense than the next 10-15 countries that are on the top 20 list combined. And that doesn't factor in things like the Veteran's Administration. 

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

You dont need to qualify if being from the "The Nation".

You're right of course, call it my 'pre-emptive strike' towards some voices on this thread who might claim 'bias' 'propaganda' and other insults because where the article is published. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Ummm it appears this nation is collectively that stupid. This nation elected Donald Trump. Now they get to own it. We have the exact leadership we collectively deserve. The Orange horror show is the idiot the babbling masses picked. The bill is now due and we will now pay that price, thanks to our own collective irresponsibility. Its almost tragically karmic, but we brought this on our own doorstep with zenophobic, homophobic motives. Were not getting a do over, the ballots were cast by Americans.

By best measure of coping is to just consider myself a political refugee here in this occupied nation.

 

Well, we can do more than that, much more that.  We can do more if we are humble enough to, as usual, learn from the perpetually occupied population of this country are coping right now, from those who are active in Black Lives Matters.

They are resisting in every possible way, and most particularly turning out in the real world in real bodies in real numbers to protest the illegal and uncivilized actions to which they are perpetually subjected, including targeted, unwarranted murder without repercussion for the murderer. In the course of Black Lives Matter actions, they have, as a matter of course, been studied by a variety of social and medical professionals.  As to be expected this sort of treatment and life style of always aware of being a target creates trauma.  What wast surprising information to the professionals that they turned up is this:  that the very acts of people coming together and protesting their treatment was healing for the traumatized and helped create an armor against further traumatization, or least more means to heal long term and short term from the trauma of such oppression.

So poltiical protest and activism is still the best weapon and the most healthy things we can do to protect ourselves and -- for that matter, our children.

[Zorral]

Really the US strutting and spitting about Korea and China, say, are going to close those bases in the next four years?

The only bases they want to pull out from are the ones that Putin wants the US to pull out from -- in Europe.  Those bases and our financial and military domination of NATO were specifically there to dominate all the European nations -- to ensure they did not ally with Russia.  But now . . . Russia is t***polini's handler and off with NATO's head and give regional and military dominance to Putin and Russia.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Really the US strutting and spitting about Korea and China, say, are going to close those bases in the next four years?

The only bases they want to pull out from are the ones that Putin wants the US to pull out from -- in Europe.  Those bases and our financial and military domination of NATO were specifically there to dominate all the European nations -- to ensure they did not ally with Russia.  But now . . . Russia is t***polini's handler and off with NATO's head and give regional and military dominance to Putin and Russia.

 

I agree that that is the angle that makes this more disturbing, absolutely. That this stance is potentially being directed by the foreign power that most benefits from its' implementation is sinister indeed, and I would oppose it on those grounds.

[Ormond]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Gianforte was born in CA,  is from PA.  He went to Montana in the 1990'w because it was a cheaper to own and run his tech company there, than in PA.  It was also an easier and cheaper place for a political campaign than where he's been living, or a state, like, o say, NJ.  He also owns a lot of investment in sanctioned by the US russian companies.

All a long-winded way of saying this has nothing, nada, to do with any twisted sense of 'honor.'  Nor did Preston's beating of Sumner, otherwise he wouldn't have run away from a duel with somebody who could actually stand up and fight back the way he did.

 

 

 

I don't think where Gianforte was born is relevant to whether or not his personal beliefs fit the "culture of honor." It is a much more prevalent attitude in the South and the rural West, but the percentage of people in other parts of the country (or even other countries in the English speaking world) is not zero. And I would bet that the fact that he thought his values would fit in with Montana culture is one reason he chose to move to that particular "easier and cheaper" state rather than someplace like Maine or New Mexico. This is another part of the so-called "Big Sort" whereby Americans are more and more deliberately moving to places where their social and political values are in the majority, creating the much stronger geographical political divide we now have in American politics.

And I think your remark about Preston also shows a lack of psychological understanding. Human beings are never 100% consistent, and unfortunately all of us are more likely to exhibit our values in situations where it's easier and less likely to result in harm to ourselves. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Ormond said:

I don't think where Gianforte was born is relevant to whether or not his personal beliefs fit the "culture of honor." It is a much more prevalent attitude in the South and the rural West, but the percentage of people in other parts of the country (or even other countries in the English speaking world) is not zero. And I would bet that the fact that he thought his values would fit in with Montana culture is one reason he chose to move to that particular "easier and cheaper" state rather than someplace like Maine or New Mexico. This is another part of the so-called "Big Sort" whereby Americans are more and more deliberately moving to places where their social and political values are in the majority, creating the much stronger geographical political divide we now have in American politics.

And I think your remark about Preston also shows a lack of psychological understanding. Human beings are never 100% consistent, and unfortunately all of us are more likely to exhibit our values in situations where it's easier and less likely to result in harm to ourselves. 

Mostly nothing above makes any real sense.  Also Gianforte said it was cheaper in MT than NJ -- which is one of the most expensive states in which to do biz and the most expensive state, so far, to run for office.  He was outgunned in NJ -- just a small fry.

In any case that whole culture of honor thing proves itself yesterday, today and tomorrow to be bs, so demonstrated by those who howl the loudest about such things, and almost always run away if they don't have an unfair advantage -- even when the advantage is equal they run away.  The only individual in our history that actually practiced what he preached in this area was Andrew Jackson, certainly not that little twit Preston Brooks.

Quote

Representative Anson Burlingame publicly humiliated Brooks by goading him into challenging Burlingame to a duel, only to set conditions designed to intimidate Brooks into backing down. (As the challenged party, Burlingame, who was a crack shot, had the choice of weapons and dueling ground. He selected rifles on the Canada side of Niagara Falls, where U.S. anti-dueling laws would not apply. Brooks withdrew his challenge, claiming that he did not want to expose himself to the risk of violence by traveling through northern states to get to Niagara Falls.)^[33]

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Brooks was a piece of shit.

[DireWolfSpirit]

The extended aftermath ("The Rest of the Story") of the Congressional cane beating story is most interesting. I had heard the story of a beating on the floor of Congress before, but like most people I suspect, hadnt known the full following story details, particularly the details of bully Brooks cowardice when he was called out. This Anson Burlingame now has piqued my interest, I think theres a nice Sundance script here just begging to be made one day.

[ThinkerX]

You want to avoid a war?

Start by treating 'the other side' as people, rather than hostile lunatics.  The area I live in is neck deep in Conservatives.  I have to interact with them daily.  They have families, job concerns, money concerns, hopes, dreams, sick relatives, and badly behaved relatives.  They tend to be very good at certain things: mechanics, small business management, and more.  Very few fit the stereotypes portrayed on this site.

Once you acknowledge them as people, you seek out points in common.  Conservatives here fret about budget deficits and rail against 'socialism' - yet despite multiple complaints about the details, almost none of them wish to see SS, Medicare, and Medicaid come to an end.  Likewise, they have little issue with Disability.  Their actual complaints about medical care tend to pertain to costs - I get an earful of this.  All points than can be agreed to and built upon.

Likewise, most are in favor of public education, though they do have justifiable complaints about the quality of that education. 

Many do object to increases in the minimum wage, but much of that objection is rooted in misconceptions about 'starter jobs,' how such will destroy jobs, and how 'burger flippers don't deserve $15 an hour.  As of late, more and more are wondering at the plight of their mostly younger relatives, who can't seem to progress past the 'starter job' level and expressing frustration why their own paychecks don't translate to much higher than that.   Still, presented correctly - that is in a way that fits their worldview, Conservatives probably would accept modest minimum wage hikes.

More problematic is child care.  Here, the mentality is kids should be born in wedlock, and couples should not have kids until they can financially support them.  Very much 'the man works while the wife stays at home and takes care of the kids.'  That both parents MUST work is something older conservatives have difficulty accepting.  Likewise, the older conservatives tend to be ignorant of child care costs, and the work requirements for most welfare programs.  The ones that are aware sometimes advocate, grudgingly, for limited exceptions. Liberals might be able to garner this into support.

 

 

 

[karaddin]

5 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I suppose my point of view is as pie-in-the-sky as yours is gloom and doom, but that's my default at the end of the day. I refuse to believe that we are this collectively stupid, at least for any prolonged period of time. I can also allow for the fact that I could very well be wrong.    

I just feel like you're already approaching the number of repetitions through "they'll come to their senses, we're better than that" where you have to decide that you actually aren't, and you won't. You can cling to your optimism, but at least try dial down functionally gaslighting terrified members of minority groups by acting as though they're being needlessly alarmist.

I don't see how this ends peacefully, but that doesn't mean it can't. But it won't end peacefully without something radically changing, and seeing that writing in on the wall, listening to the many historians that are shouting from the rooftops about what is going on, and being very afraid is reasonable.

[Sivin]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

WF,

Where are you going with this?  You seem to be advocating violence as a reasonable alternative in dealing with Trump and his supporters.  To take this to an extreme interpretation are you seeking to imply violence is a proper way to dissuade my parents and MiL from supporting Trump and the people around him?

I see the use of violence as limited to self defense.  Are you saying otherwise?

I am saying that the 'conservative' minority has decided that threatening (and committing) violence is acceptable. That's a fact, look at what has happened the last eight years culminating in literally attacking a reporter who was doing his job. And they've been rewarded for their barbarism.

Meanwhile, any time a liberal so much as smiles at a self-confessed NAZI getting sucker punched these 'conservatives' cry foul and use the event to further their own increasingly hateful and bullying cause.

I keep hearing that liberals need to always take the high road no matter what! And decency will out!

Very high minded sentiment, that. And one I used to agree with. But we 'decent' folks have been made as slaves by an empowered fraction of our neighbors who sustain themselves with hatred and outright falsehoods. Not only is the game no longer being played fairly, these civilized people ME keeps referring to are not even allowed to have pieces on the board.

So no, I will never advocate unwarranted violence 'preemptive' or otherwise. But when threatened daily, and vilified simply for existing, the only proper response is not submission. I am not suggesting that I want to grab my musket and start firing away, I am saying that when I am personally threatened or attacked I will respond with the maximum level of violence I feel appropriate for the situation that minimizes my chances of seeing the inside of a prison cell. Seeing as how anyone who might attack me could simply claim 'it's a tranny!' as justification in this part of the country, though... I'll burn that bridge after I cross it.

And I will not suffer calls to 'moderate' my position when I approve of others doing the same.

Knowing the outcome, I wish Gianforte had had is neck broken by the man he attacked. Any call that this sentiment is in any way obscene is to be willfully ignorant of the climate in which we live today.

You want decency, Scot? Find a decent atmosphere in which to call for such a luxury.

7 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

@OldGimletEye I don't think we disagree on this. I believe initiating violence is almost always the wrong action to take, and indeed I think e.g. punching Spencer was the wrong thing to do, in spite of just how vile a being he is. It's just that I can see where WF and other minority members are coming from when they are preparing for the worst, considering just how widespread neofascist thought has become in the last few years.

Thank you. As I said above, I have no intentions of going on a shooting spree. But I will also not be meekly deprived of my right to exist.

7 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well I certainly don't expect them to take on iota of shit or any type of threats to their well being. And if the day comes where these neofascist jack asses go after them and shit hits the fan, I know which side I'm on.

As long as you don't talk about the economy to me personally, I think we'd get along great.

5 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I have a much harder time arguing against your position when you frame it that way. I agree that we may well be heading for something that is comparable to our Civil War. I don't have any substantial answers nor do I have much in the way of optimism.

What I do have is hope. I hope that a fair majority of our citizenry realizes that electing this Late Night Infomercial Saleman was a horrid mistake. I hope that enough us us realize that the course he is attempting to set us on will lead to disaster. I have (granted a much smaller measure of) hope that even the GOP will come to see this man as a cancer and step up and join the rest of us in excising it. 

I suppose my point of view is as pie-in-the-sky as yours is gloom and doom, but that's my default at the end of the day. I refuse to believe that we are this collectively stupid, at least for any prolonged period of time. I can also allow for the fact that I could very well be wrong.    

ME, you're delusional. I understand. Since I've known you I've always seen a positive and funny man, and such creatures are not made to suffer the crushing understanding of the darker human spirit. That you have children you want to see grow and strive in a world still stable, even if the cost of stability is horrifying, is no surprise. Many do not have the capability to see the worst until it is already behind them, I envy you that. Maybe in another life I could have hoped for the kindness of man to win out in a given stage, but ours is still a society of beasts. And when left unchecked the feral runts will inevitably believe they can dictate by virtue of savagery alone. At what point does it become the responsibility of the masses to end the suffering caused by these few?

5 hours ago, Zorral said:

I'm am not calling for anything.  Where do you get that from?

I don't want war.  How is it going to be avoided -- other than by 100% police stating repression and oppression on their part against those who don't knuckle under and jump when they say jump.

They are calling for war every day.  For years many of them have said they were at war already.  It does not take two to make a war.  It does not take two to commit murder.  It does not take to administer a beating such Preston Brooks did to Charles Sumner.  It takes only one. And they want it.

If you think this can be stopped, and have the means to do so, please share with us how to reverse and avoid this situation that we are already in!

 

4 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

This is very well put.  It's maddening when some argue that if only we don't fight back or don't react then things will work out super peacefully and wonderfully.  You're spot on in that it takes one and they are already pushing for it.  While there has been no response, neo nazis have managed to occupy the highest offices.  If that isn't a serious and direct threat, I don't know what is.

My endorsement as well.

4 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Problem is we all get to own it. The majority of the voting public did not vote for this grifter. Unfortunately we haven't bothered to amend an archaic electoral procedure that has once again bitten us on the ass.

It will never be amended, ever. The country founded by the thirteen British colonies seeking independence is dead. We will not see an end to this vitriol and hatred until, one way or another, a new constitution is written to replace it.

[Altherion]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well, we can do more than that, much more that.  We can do more if we are humble enough to, as usual, learn from the perpetually occupied population of this country are coping right now, from those who are active in Black Lives Matters.

Out of curiosity, has it ever occurred to you that such activism also strengthens the less moderate elements of the other side? Trump is extremely unlikely to have become President without the Black Lives Matter movement.

[Dr. Pepper]

Damn those uppity blacks for not wanting to be shot anymore.