Theon is neither Stark nor Greyjoy

[INCBlackbird]

I keep getting the question or seeing other people talk about if Theon is more Stark or more Greyjoy and personally I think that while he is technically a Greyjoy but emotionally more affilliated with northern culture, it's not at all what his arc is about. Theon's identity arc revolves arround self acceptance and allowing himself to be someone without belonging to either group, instead of basing his identity on which group he belongs to, he is moving towards becoming his own person who is neither Stark nor Greyjoy but simply Theon. But I'm wondering what other people think off this topic?

[Winter's Cold]

No, he chose to be Greyjoy when he attacked the Stark's castle. 

[INCBlackbird]

13 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

No, he chose to be Greyjoy when he attacked the Stark's castle. 

That's another issue, it's not about what Theon chose, of course he chose to be a Greyjoy because the Starks didn't want him, and he was still trying to belong somewhere and be accepted somewhere, The question is, who is Theon on the inside? which "group" does he feel more of a connection with.

[TrueOrFalse]

2 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Theon's identity arc revolves arround self acceptance and allowing himself to be someone without belonging to either group, instead of basing his identity on which group he belongs to, he is moving towards becoming his own person who is neither Stark nor Greyjoy but simply Theon. 

I completely agree with this.

[BalerionTheCat]

He is not Stark. But I believe he has borrowed from them caring for the people you are the lord. And the value of the Pack. To not be isolated. He is Greyjoy. But not the Old Way. Because it only leads to defeat and isolation and death. I believe he is the future of the Ironborns after the LN.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Theon certainly is a bit of a paradox. He describes the Iron Islands as poor and dreary, but when he lands there he wishes he never left. He wishes he was a Stark, but when he finds himself telling Rodrik Cassel about how being a hostage away from Pyke was like having a noose strapped around his neck, he's stunned to realize that he means it. Balon cannot his accept his son after he has been "tainted" by the North, but he hates the Starks more than anyone else because they were the ones who took his son away, and that is why he attacks the North but tries to ally himself with the Lannisters and Tyrells. Now, at his lowest point, the only people trying to save Theon are his sister and, if you believe this theory, Bran.

So in the end, I would say that, yes, Theon is Theon. He has both Stark and Greyjoy in him, but instead of working together, those factions ended up tearing him apart. 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Theon is iron born he knows where he comes from but the iron isles is a stranger to him.  He identifies himself as iron born, but is surprised/ashamed he has forgotten what that means and how real iron born live their lives.

He has also been cultured in the north and Ned becomes his adopted father figure.  He becomes culturally acclimatized to the north meaning much of the old way repulse him.

He then finds himself an outsider for the second time in his life and this time in the home he has longed to return to.  This causes his identity crisis.

 

What has died may never die will be Theon personified, he will embrace his inner iron born, and emerge harder and stronger, and with that strength he will be his own man taking what he willis from the north/Ned iron isles/Balon and become his own man.

[ftheking]

Of course he has to be ~himself~, but he still is a Greyjoy as a matter of fact. He is Iron Born as a matter of fact. This is part of his identity and he'll better embrace it to find himself. Being raised in Winterfell/the North is ALSO part of his identity and he better embraces that as well. A "Stark" he is not. He shares a lot of influences, expieriences and a bond with them though.

I'm just stating the obvious, right?

The most important task he has now is redefining what being "a Greyjoy" means so that it fits for him and Westeros will be a better place for it. 

[Seams]

I suspect that Jeyne Poole represents the identity that is right for Theon. I don't know that they will end up together literally, but she symbolizes the "pool" in the godswood where Theon does his soul-searching. As an Iron Islander, Theon should be most at home on the sea. Having been raised at Winterfell, he has found a different kind of water where he feels at home. So he is not "of the green lands," as his uncle accuses him of being, he is of the water in the green lands - a hybrid of Pyke and the North.

Maybe?

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Theon is Reek.  And he must remember his name.  Tragic character who brought about a lot of bullshit to the north through his desire for acceptance and glory.  Not saying he is a weaker person than the average person, or a bad person who deserved what he got.  Just a person in a tough situation who made decisions that led to horrifying personal and tangential consequences.  And now Stannis must give him to Bran and the Old Gods.

[ftheking]

@Lucius LovejoyYou can not seriously believe that. A whole chapter for nothing but telling us in advance how exactly the PoV character will die - right away with not a single twist between. A PoV character who's been there since the first chapter and connected to many players, always meant to water the plants. Cause that's important you see, otherwise they could never have such pretty leafes. LOL

Okay.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

That's another issue, it's not about what Theon chose, of course he chose to be a Greyjoy because the Starks didn't want him, and he was still trying to belong somewhere and be accepted somewhere, The question is, who is Theon on the inside? which "group" does he feel more of a connection with.

Regarding the OP, so... he's not Stark nor Greyjoy, he's just Theon. Kinda like Madonna?

Only joking...

But I disagree with what you said here, that the Starks didn't want him... And I'm not sure why you would think that. 

I also think he now realises that the Starks were the only family he actually ever had. Sure, he was a "ward", and we know that means, in this context, that he was a hostage. But when he is in the process of reclaiming his identity, he thinks about his betrayal a lot...

ADwD, Theon

“That was long ago, though. They were all dead now. Jory, old Ser Rodrik, Lord Eddard, Harwin and Hullen, Cayn and Desmond and Fat Tom, Alyn with his dreams of knighthood, Mikken who had given him his first real sword. Even Old Nan, like as not.
And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.”

 

[INCBlackbird]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Regarding the OP, so... he's not Stark nor Greyjoy, he's just Theon. Kinda like Madonna?

Only joking...

But I disagree with what you said here, that the Starks didn't want him... And I'm not sure why you would think that. 

I also think he now realises that the Starks were the only family he actually ever had. Sure, he was a "ward", and we know that means, in this context, that he was a hostage. But when he is in the process of reclaiming his identity, he thinks about his betrayal a lot...

ADwD, Theon

“That was long ago, though. They were all dead now. Jory, old Ser Rodrik, Lord Eddard, Harwin and Hullen, Cayn and Desmond and Fat Tom, Alyn with his dreams of knighthood, Mikken who had given him his first real sword. Even Old Nan, like as not.
And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.”

 

Trust me, I am very much aware of the qoute you added, I think I might know it by heart. But that's about Robb. Theon definitly had a good relationship with Robb and yes Robb did want him, he was the only one who did. But Robb is not "the starks" he is "a Stark" and the other Starks barely even think about Theon,  Bran thinks about him once, I think and it's when he's praying to the gods for everyone to be ok and in the end he hesistantly adds Theon "and Theon as well, I suppose" seems to me like they weren't very close, I don't remember Arya and Sansa ever thinking about Theon, Cat doesn't appear to like him or trust him very much, to the point where Robb, who normally doesn't get angry easily gets really annoyed and breaks her off whan she tries to tell him not to trust Theon, seems to me like it's a recurring thing so Robb gets annoyed by it. (even if it wasn't, she still doesn't appear to have any kind of meaningful relationship with him). Theon himself also says that he never developed a bond with the younger Stark kids. Theon thinks of Ned a lot but Ned himself only thinks of Theon once and it's about using him to theathen his father into giving them ships in case off war, not exactly pointing to Ned caring much for Theon either (not that he's required to) And Jon and Theon never got along (in my opinion clearly because of their mutual jealousy of one another). So yeah, I don't think that one Stark wanting Theon means that Theon was accepted by the Starks. Not to mention that there's also this:

 

"Why do you love the Starks?”

“I …” Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. “… I wanted to be one of them …”
“And never could. " - The Turncloak (adwd)

[INCBlackbird]

2 hours ago, ftheking said:

Of course he has to be ~himself~, but he still is a Greyjoy as a matter of fact. He is Iron Born as a matter of fact. This is part of his identity and he'll better embrace it to find himself. Being raised in Winterfell/the North is ALSO part of his identity and he better embraces that as well. A "Stark" he is not. He shares a lot of influences, expieriences and a bond with them though.

I'm just stating the obvious, right?

The most important task he has now is redefining what being "a Greyjoy" means so that it fits for him and Westeros will be a better place for it. 

It wasn't actually meant to be taken quite this literally, but I probably didn't make myself entirely clear. Of course he is technically a Greyjoy but the point I was trying to make is that he needs to stop defining himself in those terms, as either a Greyjoy or a Stark. Because what Theon did when it came to his identity in acok was oppesite thinking. He said "I am a Greyjoy, Greyjoys are this way, that way and this way. Therefor I am this way that way and this way as well." He was asigning himself a personality based on which group he was trying to belong to. That's not healthy, and if he wants to fix his identity crisis (and I think he's very close to that,) he needs to stop trying to belong to a group so desperately that he bases his personality on that. He needs to be himself first, and then he can tell others that no matter what he's like he's still a Greyjoy. So in a sense I agree with your last statement, though I don't think he nessacarily needs to redefine what being "a Greyjoy" means, I think he just needs to be himself and separate himself from being "a greyjoy" and then when he's got a better sense of identity he can reclaim the Greyjoy name. all of this purely for himself of course, i'm not suggesting that he starts telling people he's not a Greyjoy for a time, I think this is an internal process that needs to happen.

[Dorian Martell's son]

12 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

I keep getting the question or seeing other people talk about if Theon is more Stark or more Greyjoy and personally I think that while he is technically a Greyjoy but emotionally more affilliated with northern culture, it's not at all what his arc is about. Theon's identity arc revolves arround self acceptance and allowing himself to be someone without belonging to either group, instead of basing his identity on which group he belongs to, he is moving towards becoming his own person who is neither Stark nor Greyjoy but simply Theon. But I'm wondering what other people think off this topic?

He is a Eunuch now 

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Regarding the OP, so... he's not Stark nor Greyjoy, he's just Theon. Kinda like Madonna?

Only joking...

But I disagree with what you said here, that the Starks didn't want him... And I'm not sure why you would think that. 

I also think he now realises that the Starks were the only family he actually ever had. Sure, he was a "ward", and we know that means, in this context, that he was a hostage. But when he is in the process of reclaiming his identity, he thinks about his betrayal a lot...

ADwD, Theon

“That was long ago, though. They were all dead now. Jory, old Ser Rodrik, Lord Eddard, Harwin and Hullen, Cayn and Desmond and Fat Tom, Alyn with his dreams of knighthood, Mikken who had given him his first real sword. Even Old Nan, like as not.
And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.”

 

No, the Starks didn't want him. 

Robb is the only one who cared for him. Ned looked at Theon as a hostage/his responsibility/ward in that order. Catelyn didn't trust him, Bran and Jon didn't like him, Rickon was to young to form any sort of relationship with him and Sansa and Arya does not care about him. No the Starks didn't want him and that's fine.  

[Roswell]

15 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

I keep getting the question or seeing other people talk about if Theon is more Stark or more Greyjoy and personally I think that while he is technically a Greyjoy but emotionally more affilliated with northern culture, it's not at all what his arc is about. Theon's identity arc revolves arround self acceptance and allowing himself to be someone without belonging to either group, instead of basing his identity on which group he belongs to, he is moving towards becoming his own person who is neither Stark nor Greyjoy but simply Theon. But I'm wondering what other people think off this topic?

Theon is a victim of both his own culture and his fostering.  When I say culture, I mean the world he lives in.  His world is full of people proud of their family lineage.  Belonging to a family is important to those people but Theon will never be a Stark.  He doesn't belong anywhere and that is a cause for crisis to a weak person like Theon.  And not just Theon but for Viserys and Jon too.  Theon is very much like Viserys, hanging to a family glory that they remember from childhood but they are both a poor fit for the family they came from.  Jon wants to be a Stark but he doesn't really fit in with the rigid honor system of patriarch Ned Stark.  Jon is nothing like Ned.  He got lucky and ended up in a place like the watch where he can make friends and reinvent himself.  Theon was not so lucky. 

[giant snake]

Theon is one of the tragic figures in the series.  People will hate him for what he has done but it's not hard to understand why he did things he did.  Honestly he was more sympathetic when you understand him from his perspective than before when he was just an arrogant ward who didn't seem to care about anyone.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

 

5 hours ago, ftheking said:

@Lucius LovejoyYou can not seriously believe that. A whole chapter for nothing but telling us in advance how exactly the PoV character will die - right away with not a single twist between. A PoV character who's been there since the first chapter and connected to many players, always meant to water the plants. Cause that's important you see, otherwise they could never have such pretty leafes. LOL

Okay.

It can't all be twists... GRRM has to telegraph some moves, overwise it would lose it's effect.  I think this is part of what makes Theon so tragic!  A man who messed up, regretted it, and didn't get the chance to fully make amends.  We will see (or we won't since no other books are being released).

[ravenous reader]

Bran gave him back his true name at their heart-to-heart heart tree communion -- in that action, Theon is released from Winterfell's bondage by the true Lord of Winterfell, Bran. However, given that in ASOIAF no one who prays to a tree for help receives that help without a price, in return for his liberation, physical and psychic, Theon is bound henceforth to Bran.  He's becoming the very thing at which his father sneered, the Starks' 'well-trained raven'!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands.

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand.  "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

@Lucius Lovejoy and @ftheking -- I don't think, contrary to popular belief, that Theon is going to be sacrificed to the weirwood in any visceral sense -- for the same reason GRRM doesn't get rid of Tyrion.  Redemption and the revenge of the nerds!