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Dawn of Fyre

Aegon and Daenerys: King and Queen of Westeros?

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51 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Frankly the issue here may not be Daenerys (who is not opposed to incestuous unions in principle and is even the result of one) but Jon.

If the info. comes out, Jon is the one who may not be willing to marry her (even though in love) out of his views on such unions

What views? Jon almost certainly believes the same thing as the Starks, and every other noble family in Westeros—incest is bad, but incest means siblings or parents. Jon's own Stark grandparents were cousins, like half the other nobles on the continent. If he somehow has 21st century American incest taboos instead of 3rd century Stark incest taboos, that would be ridiculous.

22 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

That seems weak since the taint of bastardy can be removed be royal decree; which, in this case can be (and will almost certainly will be if there is any risk) passed by either parent depending on who is the legitimate King or Queen. Would Jon be willing to enter into an incestuous Targ style marriage so the child does not grow up a bastard?

This is even sillier. Whatever their specific incest taboos, I can't imagine anyone thinking that an incestuous marriage is out of the question, but an incestuous child, that's no problem at all. The children are the entire point of incest taboos.

And meanwhile, Jon would be much happier with a legitimate child born in wedlock than with a child who will be born a bastard but then legitimized by decree and then raised alone by a single parent. It wasn't the technicality of being a bastard that bothered him growing up, it was everything that being a bastard means—and that was always much more about things like how Cat treated him than things like if Robb died without issue the inheritance would have passed to Bran instead of him.

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Not sure why so many think that Jon would reject Dany once he finds out he's a Targaryen.

The realization will hit him on many levels, but it will hit his identity hardest; everything he believed about himself was a lie, who he is, who is family was, his heritage, etc. 

The initial shock will be about himself, not about the fact that he's in love with his aunt. Do we even know what Jon's opinion regarding romantic/sexual relations with non-immediate family members is at this stage? I doubt it's strong enough to make him reject Dany, a person he is madly in love with, especially if she ends up pregnant with their child.

I expect his reaction towards Dany will be "She's my aunt!?" and not "I had sex with my aunt!?"
Aunt/nephew relations are non-immediate, and hence not classified as incest, at least not by Westerosi standards, and I'm not even sure they do my modern standards. As for the morality of it, that's a different question altogether.

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Sometimes i think ASOIAF is about monarchies becoming republics - then I think about ppl in Westeros voting for a new ruler and think how would they even know what's goin on - it's too fantastic to believe - then I think about the USA and other places round our world today

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54 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

That seems weak since the taint of bastardy can be removed be royal decree; which, in this case can be (and will almost certainly will be if there is any risk) passed by either parent depending on who is the legitimate King or Queen. Would Jon be willing to enter into an incestuous Targ style marriage so the child does not grow up a bastard? Difficult to call. But being royalty creates this loophole which may never force him to make this choice.

The problem is that they are already in love. Learning they are related does not just turn off those feelings. It creates tension, heartache, despair, etc. And with the realm in trouble, can they really have a falling out? Just because earthy can remove the taint of bastardry, does not mean Jon would not want to be in fhe child's life. So why would they not marry? Sometimes rulers need to sacrifice for there people. And we have two people who have a legitimate claim to the throne. Jon would feel honorbound to marry her if he got her pregnant - remember that for a ruler to get pregnant outside of marriage would still Carrey social stigma. 

 

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I didn't know where to post this, so i'll do it here : 

 

Fantastic edit and montage, one of the best out there on youtube.

 

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Looking back toward what GRRM said about the ending 

I doubt they will both sit together as king and queen 

have a look at this video, it might explain what is going on. I dont agree with all of it but I liked the idea

 

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If they marry and continue Targaryen dynasty that would actually be reverting to the old ways. Which, in fact, would be the stark contrast to what Dany supposedly wants and what her story is about. 

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On 28.08.2017 at 11:41 AM, Dawn of Fyre said:

Since they both believe/and are skeptical that she can't have children, he might not 'pull out' and... surprise bub in the tub.

This one is golden. On top of the fact that he just banged his own aunt. I wonder if he gags as Ned when he learns the truth.

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1 minute ago, TwiceBorn said:

This one is golden. On top of the fact that he just banged his own aunt. I wonder if he gags as Ned when he learns the truth.

We know of a couple of Lord Starks that married nieces. That part should not be a shock to Jon or Dany.

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54 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We know of a couple of Lord Starks that married nieces. That part should not be a shock to Jon or Dany.

I expect they will bring it up soon, because as of now this is a book content.

"Wow I impregnated by aunt".
"She was not your aunt if you didn't know it!". "
So am I to stop now?".
"Hell no! Starks banged their nieces, so its kinda OK."
"Oh, that's comforting knowledge".
 

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I think Jon will freak out when he finds out about him. This will create some tension early in the season.

Then they later find out that Danny is pregnant and Jon will not want to father a bastard so he will marry out of duty.

Then Jon or Danny dies near the end.

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14 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

I expect they will bring it up soon, because as of now this is a book content.

"Wow I impregnated by aunt".
"She was not your aunt if you didn't know it!". "
So am I to stop now?".
"Hell no! Starks banged their nieces, so its kinda OK."
"Oh, that's comforting knowledge".
 

They might bring this up in the show if they have time, but from the books we know that his maternal granma and granpa were first cousins and at least of couple of great-great uncles married their nieces.

On Dany's side her parents (and his grandparents) were brother and sister, so they will laugh and say "c'est la vie".

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On 8/28/2017 at 2:41 AM, Dawn of Fyre said:

 :P They could die, sure, but not before a child is conceived or born - they are the last Targaryens' in the world. The House must endure.

Does this make sense?

I agree with your post! ;)

In my ideal world, Jon and Dany will rule as King and Queen, Tyrion as hand, Jamie (or Brienne) as commander of QG/KG, Sansa as Lady of Winterfell, Gendry as Lord of Storm's End, and Sam as Lord of the Reach. 

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5 hours ago, falcotron said:

What views? Jon almost certainly believes the same thing as the Starks, and every other noble family in Westeros—incest is bad, but incest means siblings or parents. Jon's own Stark grandparents were cousins, like half the other nobles on the continent. If he somehow has 21st century American incest taboos instead of 3rd century Stark incest taboos, that would be ridiculous.

You are going heavily by the expanded info. in the books. On the show, however, there is little to show this. The ordinary show viewers see anything that is not elaborated as more likely matching what we believe today. For example we all assume that lengths of days, months, and years on the show is the same as what we have in our world. D&D have made many moves that wouldn't be reasonable in terms of the world of the books. Unless there is some elaborate exposition on the meaning of incest in Westeros next season, it seems likely that they will treat it as immoral in the same way (and under similar definitions) as we might today. Under those assumptions, this conflict is inevitable.

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This is even sillier. Whatever their specific incest taboos, I can't imagine anyone thinking that an incestuous marriage is out of the question, but an incestuous child, that's no problem at all. The children are the entire point of incest taboos.

I was responding to a comment in which the assumption was that if Dany was already pregnant by the time Jon found out, he might marry her even if he saw it as incestuous to avoid the child being a bastard. I never said that children born of incest would not be problematic for him. But if she was already pregnant, then that ship would already have sailed.

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And meanwhile, Jon would be much happier with a legitimate child born in wedlock than with a child who will be born a bastard but then legitimized by decree and then raised alone by a single parent. It wasn't the technicality of being a bastard that bothered him growing up, it was everything that being a bastard means—and that was always much more about things like how Cat treated him than things like if Robb died without issue the inheritance would have passed to Bran instead of him.

But these problems wouldn't exist in this case. Dany's inheritance would pass to her child. If legitimized, so would Jon's. The child would know exactly who the parents were. Would not be relegated to an unwanted and an unseen place by the lady of the house. And co-parenting is still possible. 

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

If they marry and continue Targaryen dynasty that would actually be reverting to the old ways. Which, in fact, would be the stark contrast to what Dany supposedly wants and what her story is about. 

I agree. Tyrion in 7x06 said that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel. Another Targ monarch would merely be continuing what Aegon had set up.

With that said, anyone who thinks we aren't getting a miracle Jonerys baby is kidding himself.

I think Jon and Dany's fates are going to be the same: either they both live, or they both die. Ice and Fire, duality, blah blah blah. And I gotta say, there have been many hints that both of them are doomed, particularly for Dany. (It's looking like death by arrow while riding Drogon at this point, given the multiple references in S7, which would also conveniently clear the way for Jon to ride Drogon, which has also been hinted.)

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3 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I agree. Tyrion in 7x06 said that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel. Another Targ monarch would merely be continuing what Aegon had set up.

With that said, anyone who thinks we aren't getting a miracle Jonerys baby is kidding himself.

I think Jon and Dany's fates are going to be the same: either they both live, or they both die. Ice and Fire, duality, blah blah blah. And I gotta say, there have been many hints that both of them are doomed, particularly for Dany. (It's looking like death by arrow while riding Drogon at this point, given the multiple references in S7, which would also conveniently clear the way for Jon to ride Drogon, which has also been hinted.)

 

How could both events be possible? Unless you think she is going to have the baby first and then get killed by arrow riding on Drogon.

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6 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

The realization will hit him on many levels, but it will hit his identity hardest; everything he believed about himself was a lie, who he is, who is family was, his heritage, etc. 

I don't think so.  They've already set the ground work for his acceptance of the inevitable reveal. 

Just look to his conversation with Theon. 

"You're a Greyjon, but you're also a Stark because Ned Stark was more a father to you than Baelon ever was."  (Paraphrasing of course) 

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5 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

The problem is that they are already in love. Learning they are related does not just turn off those feelings. It creates tension, heartache, despair, etc.

This is completely true. And what I suspect might actually happen. I'm not arguing Jon will fall out of love with her.

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And with the realm in trouble, can they really have a falling out?

We are talking about the pragmatic sense of the same guy who refused to tell even Cersei a simple lie, even though he thought it will lose him any chance of getting her armies. This sort of Fiat Justitia ruat coelum mentality on Jon's part can be a problem.

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Just because earthy can remove the taint of bastardry, does not mean Jon would not want to be in fhe child's life.

I think an arrangement could be worked out for him to be in the child's life even without marriage. We certainly have them today.

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So why would they not marry? Sometimes rulers need to sacrifice for there people. And we have two people who have a legitimate claim to the throne. Jon would feel honorbound to marry her if he got her pregnant - remember that for a ruler to get pregnant outside of marriage would still Carrey social stigma. 

That could be a real conflict. If marrying her was necessary to preserve her honor, then maybe that would work. But D&D will have to show that it really will hit her honor and respectability in a major way to make this plausible.

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4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

 

How could both events be possible? Unless you think she is going to have the baby first and then get killed by arrow riding on Drogon.

It would need a time jump, as would any scenario where Dany gets pregnant, bears a living child and dies.

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