The Last Jedi: Here There Be Spoilers

[Darth Richard II]

10 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

Anyone else think Yoda setting fire to the Jedi texts and his amusement at Luke’s horror is allegorical to Disney declaring the EU non-canon?

 

”But there’s so many stories in there!”

“Bit shit though, aren’t they?”

I mentioned that already! I demand royalties!

[karaddin]

Yoda even tells us that in the conversation, he just doesn't tell Luke. "Everything in those books she already knows" something to that effect in yoda speech. It confused me at the time because she hadn't exactly been taught much, especially not of the old Jedi - just self taught usage really.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

I mentioned that already! I demand royalties!

Ah, my apologies for not reading the entire thread.

I can offer you republic credits in payment.

[Derfel Cadarn]

So what happened to Snap Wexley (rebel pilot played by Greg Grunberg who even got his own toy)?

Dead offscreen or on a recon mission to return in the next JJ abrams film? He was a big character in the mediocre Wendig trilogy, they can at least say what happened to him. 

[HexMachina]

20 hours ago, AndrewJ said:

Just about all of the "Rey is special person X" theories are predicated on Luke somehow using the Force to cloud her memories. Regardless of the fact that we've never seen the Force used for anything like that - but hey... magic.

Prior to TFA we hadn’t seen anyone stop a blaster bolt with the force. Prior to this film we hadn’t seen the whole astral projection thing. Or flying through space. Clearly the force will be used in new ways if the writers or director want it to be.

Also, regarding “Skywalker Family was always special”...am I the only one thinking Luke’s speech about the Jedi and the force not belonging to them and being part of everything was supposed to clue us in about Rey being a “nobody?” The Force is everywhere and part of everything, it’s not limited to certain bloodlines, it can manifest anywhere, like in a child of two desert rats, or an orphan cleaning stables.  

[Darth Richard II]

41 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

Ah, my apologies for not reading the entire thread.

I can offer you republic credits in payment.

 Bah! Your republican credits no good here!

[dog-days]

Random plot twist generator:

- DJ is Rey's father. 

No, I don't think it's likely. But he'said the right age, and needs stuff to do in Episode IX!

I'd still like Rey to be some kind of semi-reincarnation of Anakin. Think it would also offer an in-universe explanation for the Rey-Skywalker parallels: Force ghost Anakin picked someone who reminded him of his better self, who needed protection, and whom he could protect by giving his abilities. 

Did anyone get a good look at the two parent shadows in the hole before they became Rey? 

[Eggegg]

I’m probably a bit late with the whole reaction bit, but I’m SO disappointed with this movie. 

Anything that isn’t Kylo Ren is just a jumbled mess of nonsense, and the tone is closer to the Prequels than the OT. Just so much of it doesn’t really work and left me totally bored, that I could count the moments I was engaged on one hand and still have fingers left to pick my nose.

It feels just like every other Hollywood blockbuster these days, just a bunch of empty visuals, fights directed by people who don’t understand tension, and a cast of characters who lack any sort of depth or charisma but at the same time we are pressured to love them. 

I might be more disappointed by this than by the prequels, Not because it’s that bad but because it could have been so much better and there are a couple of elements that really shone, like Kylo and Ren’s connection , or Luke. 

But the majority of the plot is just meaningless, watching the rebel fleet sort of escape for 2 hours is simply not gripping. Maybe there are so many fundamental issues created by Force Awakens that totally screwed the pooch from the start I don’t know. Personally I think that basically the entire plot line of the new order and the rebellion is a sad rehash of the OT and the wasted potential for where they could have gone with this trilogy is glaring. 

Such a waste.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Yoda even tells us that in the conversation, he just doesn't tell Luke. "Everything in those books she already knows" something to that effect in yoda speech. It confused me at the time because she hadn't exactly been taught much, especially not of the old Jedi - just self taught usage really.

No, it's even better than that.Yoda says "there was no wisdom in that tree that she does not already possess." At the time we're thinking oh, how wise, Rey is going to be great, but Yoda was actually being a dick and telling Luke to fuck off because Rey already stole the books away.

Love asshole Yoda.

I'm going to go into more about what I loved about it, but this review does a really good job of talking about why it works for me. Namely, it takes everything you love about Star Wars and uses it as fuel to move forward. It lets the past die, and kills it if it has to. It is something of a massive middle finger to JJ Abrams, and I'm cool with that.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

So my tl;dr review of the film is it's got some great moments but overall disappointing.

I'm glad some people enjoyed TLJ, but to not even admit it was flawed seems disingenuous. Maybe I'm being overly critical, but based on what was promised in TFA vs what was delivered in TLJ, I don't think so. The out of place humor and lack of gravitas along with a silly plot device aside, I'll focus on three key characters I felt TLJ let me down on..

When it comes to Rey and Snoke, sure, I'll take on some of that disappointment as a fan. I chose to immerse myself in the fan theories and videos. No clear promises were ever made about Snoke, so his abrupt death w/out any fucking explanation of his origin is a bit on the fans. However, Lucas giving fans an entire trilogy of films on the origins of the Emperor, Darth Vader, and the Empire, would tend to lead fans to believe we'd get SOMETHING as to Snoke's origins in the films. Not everything should have to be read in a book or experienced in a video game. Snoke is a key character, and as such I don't think it was out of the realm of expectation to have some of his origin revealed in the films.

Rey's lineage/parentage was a bigger let down on the filmmakers' parts in my opinion. We are led to believe as audience members that there is a connectivity to be expected amongst the key characters in a STAR WARS film. Some unexpected familial bond. Rey's parent's being "nobodies" and for Kylo Ren to use the meta dialogue, "You're nobody in this story," to Rey felt like a direct slap in the faces of fans. Already fan speculation of "Is Kylo lying ?!?" has sprung up. I'm just tapped out and don't care anymore. And that's the worst thing a storyteller can do is to not make fans care about the characters.

And we come to Luke. Where to even start? The unpasteurized blue milk? The inconsistencies in his words and actions, the inexplicable new powers, the dying from exhaustion? Yes, Luke Skywalker, last of the Jedi, died from exhaustion. *smh* Sure, Luke goes out in a way similar to Obi Wan in ANH, but for Luke it felt like such a hamfisted, clunky way for him to exit. And I don't feel like we really ever got an explanation as to WHY the Jedi are meant to end. We're just supposed to accept that they are. Um, okay. So the heroes of the franchise for the last 40 years are now just some bullshit that needs to be replaced (with what exactly is left unclear) because Hermit Luke and Emo Ren say so? *sigh* And was it just me, or did Luke say he had "three lessons" to teach Rey but only got around to two? I'm gonna have to watch it again to better process it all, so maybe I missed that third lesson--and I'm still kind of unclear  as to exactly what the first two lessons were. 

Oh, and force spirit Yoda can control lightning. Great. Have fun here, guys and gals. I'm deuces.

Allow me to elaborate,  I'm not "quitting" Star Wars; I'm just done expecting anything worthwhile from its films. (Dave Filoni and the animation division still have potential.)  Star Wars is so engrained into my being that even though I know SOLO is going to be a dumpster fire, I'll still be there opening weekend. Ditto for Episode IX Return of The Abrams. But I think I'm done investing so much time, energy, and discussion into this franchise. At least I hope I am because I really don't want to be this disappointed in another SW film again

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Yeah, I did. All I remember is that the taller shadow on the left, the man of course (Hey but what do we know!) had a loose-fitting upper garment, you could see something swishing, and hair long enough that you saw it. No military  clean-cut that's for sure. 

Saw it again and am impressed by the poetry of some of i. Rian Johnson's envisioning the blood-red soil of the final planet. (see? Don't remember planet names!) Why the guy tasting it and saying "that's salt"? And the salt is red. What's red? Blood. What has salt besides a desert? Tears. When War comes to a virgin soil and the ships rake the delicate desert skin with their savage killing nails, the earth itself cries, the earth weeps as it bleeds, tears of blood. 

things I missed: Rey sitting on the rock where Luke later  dies. What is the signifigance of what lies under the rock? It wasn't her dark cave/vision. 

What was said by Luke and Rey, in the Light and in the Dark. Wow. Every time we Luke's face in half-shadow. Powerful stuff. 

 

Luke going up to torch the Tree with his "Bic lighter", then Yoda blasts it was lightening, Hilarious. Like, "No matter how powerful I know you are, I'm still the Master."  I loved the dynamic Luke and Yoda have; they are closer now that Luke is old as his species goes, and Luke greets him as an old friend with no awe, but Yoda still calls him "young Skywalker." I'm in tears. Then he says that Luke is still looking to the horion and again, I'm in tears. But then that comment..."we are what they grow away from," this REALLY bothers me.

The Big Three have to go in the main films b/c they'll pass away but why shove aside the one actor who has always loved SW and loved his character? Mark Hamill is a living treasure, he loves SW and loves his fans, and they know it. He just told Stephen Colbert  last week that he still stands in front of sliding doors at the supermarket and waves his hand. I mean we all do this from time to time,( I do:) but picturing this 66 yr-old man, the Origional Jedi himself, still childlike in his love for Luke, when he said this I almost cried. The world needs heroes, even fictional ones, and no-one understands this better then Mark. He just wanted Luke to remain someone who gives people Hope. Even conflicted, but his basic character traits intact.  And Disney knows this. Cynically trotting Mark out for interviews. 

 

I wonder if they will *allow* him to even do fan conventions now, or will they shut him up like HBO has shut Martin up?

 

All this "forget the past," comments and "there should be no Heroes" REALLY bothers me. Another word for Hero in my book is Visionary. And those who act on their visions almost all of them go against the grain. Heroes both real and fictional are rebels and revolutionaries. 

And we have few and far between of those these days. All is being slowly swallowed up by the Coporate Behemoth, which gets bigger and bigger. The Stan Lees, the Lucases, Spielbergs, George Martins, the Neil Gaimans, the Hayao Miazakis...the current "franchise content creators" driving the box office, are mostly elderly men, who are the real new visionaries? Is anyone bothered that Disney has basically taken over the box office for an entire quarter of a year, with its ownener ship of Marvel, (Thor), then Pixar (Coco) and now Lucasfilm? And now Warner Brothers/Amazon sharing semi-ownership of the Tolkien Estate, that last biastion has fallen too, and we may see someday as Middle-earth theme park. 

Uncle Walt may have planted the seeds for that one by creating Theme parks but first he was a true rebel and Visionary. Remember his subversive aborted partnership with Pablo Picasso? And Fantasia? I remember reading somewhere that Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs only had a 2-week run in theaters b/c children were so scared of the film it had to be pulled, janitors were going crazy cleaning up theater sets around the country b/c so many kids were wetting their pants from fear during the Forest Sequence, where she flees from the Huntsman. Yes, Snow White! I mean kids today don't bat an eyelash I'm sure, buy by standards then...and  Pinocchio remains IMO Disney's masterpiece, and one of the darkest and most subversive films ever made. (Not as dark as Collodi though I mean in the book Pinoke steps on the cricket and squashes him.)

 

And what has Disney become? A bunch of mediocre, scared little pussies. I mean they fought Johnny Depp tooth and nail over something as harmless as an off-kilter portrayal of Captain Jack!

 

IMO the worst sin they can commit is to be bland and mediocre. Just like the opposite of love is not hate,it's indifference. 

Okay, I didn't mean to go on a rant about Disney but I think their biggest evil is not that they are some money-grubbing machine (the Indies can do that too, Lucas *cough*) but that they literally know nothing else. They have no vision and play it safe, b/c these days all of Hollywood has a huge case of MBA Disease. THEY"RE ALL BEAN-COUNTERS AND NOTHING ELSE, NOT A "MOVIE MAN" AMONG THEM. Lucas was greedy but he began as a rebel against the system and no matter what, he loved movies. Even when he screwed up, I don't think he ever not cared. 

This has been brewing for a long time and I hope the bubble will pop soon. Actors know it; writes know it;directors know it, that's why they've all defected to TV. All movie plots have started to look and sound the same. Post-apocalyptic Doom scenario....if I see one more Human-driving-a giant-robot (you know what I mean) hunting Aliens Invading From the Sky/We are at War and have to fight back/attractive teens aspiring to be part of a military  group fighting Big Alien Invaders I'm gonna scream. Meshing film franchises together. The same contrived plots and rehashed characters. It all feels oppressive. And now that Hollywood through the Franchise total control has reverted back to the '50's where the Producer reigns supreme and the director is just a servant; the TV way of doing things,  it's a ticking time bomb. Where will the talent come from? Why would any aspiring Director want to work for a Hollywood where Directors have no control over their scripts and can be fired like nothing? Where the release date for a film is announced before the talent has even been hired and NOTHING can ever change that date? And nobody cares b/c they all aim to please the Chinese market. You can say "well it hasn't affected the box office; people still come," but it HAS. They've had to raise ticket price b/c fewer tix are being sold. it's not just Netflix keeping them away. 

 

And now this herd mentality of the Rotten Tomatoes crowd; the critics all falling into line praising the franchise films of certain studios (Disney) and not others. Everyone loves a winner so the herd mentality reigns. Heaping praise on the lukewarm films of some studios but trashing others. I'm not talking TLJ; except for the script Luke's character it was fantastic.

 

And this comes from someone who is very conflicted about the film's plot but realizes that given what he had to work with, Rian is a brilliant, poetic director....I even saw some of Terrence Malick in some sequences. SW? Say hello to your Miguel Sapochik. Another brilliant director who does what he can with the s**t scripts he's given. 

 

[Kalbear]

Okay, so, on why I loved it and what @Rhom and others are missing: I don't know what you're missing, save perhaps lack of expectations. This will talk about the difference between the fans and my view, and why I think it happened. The next post will deal with why I loved this film in particular.

Last Jedi was successful for me partially because it absolutely messed with the audience in their expectations. TFA was a Star Wars movie down to individual plot points, and as such was extremely predictable. That was good; we wanted to see a Star Wars movie that felt right. Once they earned that trust, they spent it, and spent it hard. This was a movie that took almost every single expectation you had and turned it around, and even told you this right up front. "Did you think I was going to take a laser sword and singlehandedly defeat the entire First Order?" and "This isn't going to go the way you think". 

I think there are a whole lot of fans that hated this. And I get that, because in a lot of ways this was a deconstruction of Star Wars. This was telling us, point blank, that revolutions don't just need heroes, they need leaders - when the entire history of Star Wars is about heroes making the difference when leadership doesn't. This was telling us that noble sacrifice isn't as important as saving those we love, which again - not the message Lucas has had. This has people disobeying orders and doing harebrained schemes that utterly fail - that never happens, or if it does it only happens for a brief moment before they heroically fix things. 

This is the first Star Wars that has the weight of loss and the cost of war. It's the one that asks - okay, we've done the same thing 7 times before and we're still in basically the same place. What do we need to do to move on?' And the answer is "let the past die, kill it if you have to". 

In addition to that, every single story beat that we expect turns out not the way we think, from almost the moment that we meet Luke again and he awesomely throws the saber away. We expect he will either destroy Snoke or teach Rey or do something. Nope. We expect Ben will be swayed from his path, just like Vader - nope. We expect Snoke will be the final big bad, just like the Emperor. Nope. We expect Finn and Rose to succeed because otherwise what's the point of that plot, and the answer is showing us sometimes plots fail. (it also establishes Rose, which was a big deal). We expect the resistance to be able to get a distress call out and drive off the enemy, but despite Leia's plea no one comes to help. We expect Rey to be a child of destiny, a mystery of her parents - and they are simply nothing at all, and she comes from nothing special, in one of the most moving scenes. And when finally, Luke shows up at the moment of maximum need, we expect him to finally show off those amazing force powers that we saw glimpses of in the Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith...and we even get that with the AT-ATs blasting him to dust, and Ren unable to touch him in a duel...but nope.

And the movie tells you it's going to do this, and tells you early, and you are like 'but...nah, it can't be this way', and at the end it finishes exactly like it told you it would. That, IMO, is why so many fans are so very upset. They expected a bit of discomfiture, but they figured eventually they'd get a payoff like they expect, just like they did in the previous 5 star wars movies they liked, and the 3 ones they didn't. And they get everything answered and dealt with far earlier than they expected, often with amazing conclusions, but it wasn't like they expected. So that bothers them, and they're upset, and then they look for things to nitpick. (this is totally natural, btw - all humans do this, where they first feel something wrong and then rationalize why they feel wrong).

So for me: I loved that Snoke - a character that I thought was kind of shitty and derivative - was just dispatched and done with in a badass way. I loved how Luke defied his heroic expectations and then went out in a way that was new and amazing and hugely surprising. I loved that Finn's plan failed. I loved that Ren didn't convert, Rey didn't convert, and both made a choice and a path and are now enemies with very good motivations and values for why. I love that at the very end the resistance is basically done, but something else is going to bloom - maybe not a rebellion, but a revolution. 

 

[A True Kaniggit]

Little sad for Leia though. When they send out the distress call she tells them to include her personal I.D.  And no one shows up. Some friends huh?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

I'm going to go into more about what I loved about it, but this review does a really good job of talking about why it works for me. Namely, it takes everything you love about Star Wars and uses it as fuel to move forward. It lets the past die, and kills it if it has to. It is something of a massive middle finger to JJ Abrams, and I'm cool with that.

I’ve been going back and forth over the last 60 hours since I’ve seen the movie, and I find myself agreeing a lot with this essay. It’s still weak in places - the casino planet still feels very unnecessary to me - but I agree that the main theme is tearing down our previous notions of Star Wars to make way for something new. It strives to subvert clichés at every opportunity.

In terms of character and themes, the film is very strong, stronger than TFA. It’s just weak in pacing for me.

[Kalbear]

Now, onto what I loved about TLJ that was so awesome, personally:

Leia and Holdo and Rose were fucking incredible. All the performances were great - Ren is by far the best villain Star Wars has ever had, Luke was just wonderful, Rey was good and had great chemistry with everyone, Poe was fun and had great hair, Hux was perfect in his mangy, beaten cur role.

Holdo, however, was great. Smart, commanding, empathetic, and just tired of dealing with men and their bullshit. 

Leia was poignant in every way, of course, but even without the sadness of Carrie Fisher's death her role was great. Commanding, charismatic, forceful, sad, filled with loss and filled with the need to keep going even with all the weight of everything on her. And as I said before, the small beat between Holdo and Leia was one of my favorites of all of Star Wars - their obvious fondness for each other, the familiarity of two women who have worked together for so long and know each other so well. It was a great touch that most movies don't do, much less Star Wars - two old female friends who care of each other.

Rose was the best of all for me. Rose was a joy in the same way that Wonder Woman was a joy. She wasn't innocent; she grew up in shitty conditions, she just had her sister die, she knew what she was doing and why. She was still unjaded, still able to see the joy in the world, full of passion and excitement and love of things. Her comment - 'we fight not to destroy what we hate, but to save what we love' - is one of the main keys of the movie and this new direction, and I loved it. Every time she's on screen I was happy, and because of it I didn't care that the Casino sequence went on a bit long or didn't end up with anything, because she was fucking rad and I loved her. 

The movie was gorgeous. The movie was the closest to a Ralph McQuarrie painting I've ever seen. Krait was incredible. The use of silence on the lightspeed ram was amazing. The crystal foxes were cool as shit. The infinite mirror was weirdly effective. 

It was genuinely funny. I am still laughing about Luke tossing things off his shoulder, I'm still laughing about him tickling Rey with a leaf, I'm laughing about the shockingly awesome Porgs. 

I smiled like a loon from the moment that Luke came back, and I didn't think it was slow or boring at any moment. I'd happily watch basically any part of it again that you choose, and much like other movies that I've liked recently (Fury Road is one) I can't stop thinking about it and talking about it. 

And yes, there are plot holes and this is Star Wars what the fuck did you expect? Star Wars had plotholes so big they made an entire movie about the resolution of one of them (Rogue One), and that was the very first movie! We had fucking teddy bears taking on trained soldiers in armor and winning! There was a fucking worm in an asteroid that lived on seething hate, apparently! I absolutely agree there were plenty of plot holes, and they don't matter to me because every single star wars movie has had plenty of absurdly large plotholes, and this one gave me so many feelings I don't care about any of that.

I can't wait to see it again. 

[HexMachina]

I’m really excited to have Ben as the antagonist of the next film rather than Snoke but I can’t deny I thought the scenes with Snoke in his throne room were brilliant. He was so menacing and powerful (awesome job by Serkiss again, seriously this man is great) and the way the throne room looked and how everything was shot was brilliant. Snoke as a character is obviously lacking though, which is why I am happy to have Ben as the (presumablyj big bad of IX. 

All of that said, I would still like to know a few things about Snoke; who was he, how did he get to Ben and turn him towards darkness and the slaughter at Luke’s temple? How did he build the First Order, and where did he learn to use the force as powerfully as he does? I guess these could all be answered by IX...we’ll see.

I’m still scrolling through the comments in this thread so forgive me for not quoting but someone mentioned an effort by 4channers to downvote it or something and I could absolutely believe that. It wasn’t lost on me that we got an increased number of women in this film in both major and minor roles which I can imagine would piss that site off to no end. 

On a related matter, someone mentioned the lack of aliens in the new films compared to the OT and PT. In comparison to the OT I don’t think that’s accurate, the alien characters in both are largely just side characters even if they are in prominent positions, like Ackbar or minor parts like pilots for the Rebellion. We see a fair number of Resistance pilots who are aliens for example. And we have the likes of Maz (tangent: Maz really deserves her own spin off answering all of these questions she so happily deflects when asked; where did you get this lightsaber? What union dispute? All stories for another time) and presumably Snoke. Did we really get so many in the OT except Chewie and Jabba? 

As for the PT...well all I will say is quantity doesn’t mean quality and these films are great examples of why

[Darth Richard II]

Everything kalbear said 

[karaddin]

@Kalbear yeah I agree with you a lot here (and thanks for the correction on what Yoda said, that is indeed awesome). 

With Snoke in particular I love that they never surpassed him, they never even came close to his power. He's instead defeated by his own confidence blinding him to the possibility Ren's treachery could actually touch him, he simply looks away at the wrong moment.

If we're to run with the themes in the movie - Snoke had to be so powerful because he rose against the power of Luke's good. Perhaps Rey and Ren will never reach these heights and that will be for the good of the galaxy.

I also like that the character whose plans have failed all through the movie, and has been repeatedly hit over the head how being a hero just gets people killed, has his chance at the end to go out and try play hero again with Luke but he turns away. We've spent 2 movies saying Luke is the spark of hope the galaxy needs, but in that moment he recognises the truth what Leia has said - they are that spark and they need to survive. Honour what Luke is doing by taking the opportunity he has given them, be smart. And the impact they'll have on rallying people will change now that they believe in themselves instead of waiting for a hero to save them all.

I was really uncomfortable with the idea of Finn driving into the canon to destroy it, and really relieved when Rose rammed him. I've been trying to think of how to articulate why it would have bothered me, but the light speed cruiser didn't and failing. The best I can do is that Holdo was out of options, that cruiser could not survive and it was simply choosing how she would die. Finn still had options, he was making the choice to sacrifice his life as the way to help his friends and that's...a questionable message. At the very least I don't like the idea of a SW movie showing two separate good guys essentially winning a victory with suicide bombings. I know people love to pretend these movies are in a vacuum but they're not.

As Rebels says it's not just whether you win or lose but how you choose to fight that matters, and in SW the good guys need to generally fight the right way. So when they followed that up with Rose saying "we don't sacrifice ourselves, we save them ones we love" it was the perfect resolution of that attempt.

[Darth Richard II]

I brought up the 4chan thing, and yeah there're mad for the reason you said, *rolls eyes*

[Darth Richard II]

I hope phasma is a big villain in 9