The Last Jedi: Here There Be Spoilers

[Arataniello]

2 hours ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

Anyone else notice the Gareth Edwards cameo? There’s a rebel who picks up some salt on the planet and the guy next to him is Edwards.

I need to go back and check online to see which two Stormtroopers were played by Princes William and Harry.  

 

[Fiddler]

I'm not trying to defend this movie to anyone.  I enjoyed it, others didn't, I'm fine with that.  What I don't like is someone dismissing people enjoying a movie as a "rubbish argument".  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others can't.

As to those who wanted to see more of a "gray" ending or a twist with Rey and Kylo, this is Star Wars.  These aren't morally gray stories.  These are classic Good Vs Bad.  Plus, I'm with the poster who said there is no redemption for Kylo, not after killing Han.  Plus I think it would have been a disservice to the character they are building in Kylo to have him turn.  Struggle with his choices, yes, because he is still living in Vader's shadow (which is fucking gigantic), but I don't want him turning to the light.

[polishgenius]

2 minutes ago, Fiddler said:

These aren't morally gray stories.  These are classic Good Vs Bad. 

Well, Vader's entire arc makes this a partial fib, anyway, but even if we sidestep that: why can't they be? The old EU had some of its best stories be shades-of-grey stuff.
He doesn't have to turn always and forever. But give it some more time, and have Rey be tempted in some logical way (use her anger, which she shows loads of and is never really dealt with) or stay with him to continue to try to win him back, appaling Fynn who's looking for her the whole movie and would now think she's betrayed them. Something like that.

[Calibandar]

Just came back from seeing it. 

Massively anticipated of course, and.... on the whole a very good film with one very sour note. It has so much happening in it that I definitely want to see it again. Didn't have that with Rogue One but certainly this requires it, as did TFA. 

I hated the ending. As far as Luke goes, film 1 was one very long tease and denial, ultimately ending up with nothing but denial.

Film 2 promises to be make good on that, but when all is said and done, we've once again had to deal with Reluctant Aragorn syndrome, a Luke Skywalker who isn't himself, who doesn't want to, whose character needs to evolve. And that means that at the end of 2,5 hours, we still haven't had a single fight scene with Luke, we don't get to see Luke being Luke, there are no training sessions etc. There is this deep, deep desire in Rian Johnson and the writers to not throw fans a bone. Expectations must be subverted, do *not* give them what they want. His expected appearance at the end, after having been out of the film for so long, turns out to be a hoax, and on top of that, yes let's kill him off as well. The moment the film ended I found myself thinking back to those early Mark Hamill comments from last year, about how disappointed he was in Rian Johnson's story for Luke.

Honestly, this film has much that I enjoyed and some great individual scenes. I really liked the interplay between Rey and Kylo Ren, excellent. But the ending was a massive copout, such a letdown. Being clever and wrongfooting your audience isn't always better than playing it straight.

As for Luke's death, it just feels like they want his character out of the way with, but what happened there, in universe? He let go, he went peacefully? A sort of semi-suicide? It seems like we're meant to believe the Force projection actually killed him so that is likely the explanation, but....... why? Is there precedence for Force projections killing a Jedi?

[Fiddler]

Just now, polishgenius said:

Well, Vader's entire arc makes this a partial fib, anyway, but even if we sidestep that: why can't they be? The old EU had some of its best stories be shades-of-grey stuff.
He doesn't have to turn always and forever. But give it some more time, and have Rey be tempted in some logical way (use her anger, which she shows loads of and is never really dealt with) or stay with him to continue to try to win him back, appaling Fynn who's looking for her the whole movie and would now think she's betrayed them. Something like that.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it couldn't have been great.  I was, for a moment, wondering if the third movie would be Kylo and Rey vs Luke (obviously this was a very brief thought) which would have been interesting.

I don't really think of Vader as being grey either.  He was good, then evil, then good.  No grey in between.  Plus, his redemption only works because of his death.  If he would have left with Luke, the rebellion would have wanted him punished.  Or, if he hadn't been so hurt, he may have pulled a Kylo and just tried to get Luke to join him in leading the empire.

Even the morally grey characters in the original trilogy that were introduced (Han and Lando) both turned out to be good, not really grey.

[polishgenius]

Just now, Fiddler said:

Even the morally grey characters in the original trilogy that were introduced (Han and Lando) both turned out to be good, not really grey.

That's fair, but this film kind of skirts away from even what the OT did. The only real interesting bit on that front (apart from BDT, who pretty much stuck evil at the end but could come back being helpful at some point) was the conflict between Poe and Holdo, and that wasn't handled especially well (although unlike some I didn't think that was an actual plot hole or anything- I thought Holdo refusing to trust someone who'd cost them a huge portion of their forces by disobeying a direct order made sense, but then the film sided with Poe somewhat (although it didn't make out Holdo to be wrong, which was nice).

It was made more frustrating though by setting up these possibilities and then ignoring them for the basic option.


I mean, like I say, I really liked it, but I thought that ending it so simply with Kylo and Rey was a waste of narrative thread.

[Fiddler]

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

That's fair, but this film kind of skirts away from even what the OT did. The only real interesting bit on that front (apart from BDT, who pretty much stuck evil at the end but could come back being helpful at some point) was the conflict between Poe and Holdo, and that wasn't handled especially well (although unlike some I didn't think that was an actual plot hole or anything- I thought Holdo refusing to trust someone who'd cost them a huge portion of their forces by disobeying a direct order made sense, but then the film sided with Poe somewhat (although it didn't make out Holdo to be wrong, which was nice).

It was made more frustrating though by setting up these possibilities and then ignoring them for the basic option.


I mean, like I say, I really liked it, but I thought that ending it so simply with Kylo and Rey was a waste of narrative thread.

I can see that.

I also didn't see Holdo not telling Poe crap as a plot hole.  I mean he has proven to be reckless, was just demoted and is demanding to know what the plan is?  Then proves that her opinion was right about him by going behind her back.

Am I the only one that doesn't want to see DJ being redeemed?  He caused so much death to happen for the rebellion that he would have to do something amazing to redeem himself.   I personally like that he was actually just out for himself.  I didn't want this mysterious stranger they met in jail, to be a savior.

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, SerHaHa said:

He's 5 years younger, I checked again, you can Google it too if you like.  Season 4 Ezra is stated as being 14 years old, and Season 4 is 1 year before the Battle of Yavin.  Luke Skywalker is stated in current canon to be 19.  So, very close, in later years, but again, TFA is stated as being 30 years after Yavin, which would make Luke 49.  Del Toro being 50, all I'm saying, is that his age wouldn't have been out there at all for playing a 44 year old Ezra, actors to +/- double digits all the time, much less just 5 years.

You misread that Google result then, he's 14 at the start of Rebels, not of S4. He's exactly the same age as Luke and Leia, either born on the same day or a couple of days earlier (depending on if there was any time lag in Padme giving birth at the end of RotS.

Quote

Ezra Bridger was born in 3258 LY, on the day of the inception of the Galactic Empire, and grew up on the planet Lothal in the Outer Rim Territories.

I loved this movie, probably my favorite SW movie. I can see some of the complaints others are making, but don't care. Others I don't even see as an issue at all. This movie was visually spectacular and the emotional weight behind the last performance of CF and the death of Luke would carry a lot even on their own, combined with a movie I loved anyway and it's going to be a favourite.

I thought to myself as soon as the Kamikaze hyperspace jump happened "people will nitpick to death why that isn't normally done" and they did open a can of worms, but it was worth it.

As for never seeing Luke fight... We wanted to see the power of an old, self possessed Luke and that's what we got. It might not have been the big, flashy force powers we imagined, but it's far more true to what the Jedi are supposed to be. The PT Jedi fought fabulously, and served the dark side ultimately, Luke projected himself across the Galaxy to do nothing but save lives. He's not fulfilling the PT belief in no attachment however - he saves those he loves. 

Fromour point of view he's now dead, and that destroyed me in the movie - for that to happen in 2017 is the symbolic death of my childhood belief in pure shining good that has happened in reality due to 2017. From the characters point of view though, he didn't give up, he didn't commit suicide or sacrifice himself. After years of cutting himself off, he connected with the force with all of his being and ascended to become one with the force. 

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Fiddler said:

Am I the only one that doesn't want to see DJ being redeemed?  He caused so much death to happen for the rebellion that he would have to do something amazing to redeem himself.   I personally like that he was actually just out for himself.  I didn't want this mysterious stranger they met in jail, to be a savior.

I don't want him to be redeemed, necessarily, but I think I'd enjoy it if he showed up again and actually helped this time, because that benefitted him.

[Fiddler]

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

 

As for never seeing Luke fight... We wanted to see the power of an old, self possessed Luke and that's what we got. It might not have been the big, flashy force powers we imagined, but it's far more true to what the Jedi are supposed to be. The PT Jedi fought fabulously, and served the dark side ultimately, Luke projected himself across the Galaxy to do nothing but save lives. He's not fulfilling the PT belief in no attachment however - he saves those he loves. 

Fromour point of view he's now dead, and that destroyed me in the movie - for that to happen in 2017 is the symbolic death of my childhood belief in pure shining good that has happened in reality due to 2017. From the characters point of view though, he didn't give up, he didn't commit suicide or sacrifice himself. After years of cutting himself off, he connected with the force with all of his being and ascended to become one with the force. 

Well said.

[Fiddler]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

I don't want him to be redeemed, necessarily, but I think I'd enjoy it if he showed up again and actually helped this time, because that benefitted him.

Oh I agree.  I wouldn't mind seeing him again, loved the character, but as a mercenary "i'm just here to get paid" character.

[Calibandar]

On 16-12-2017 at 1:56 AM, red snow said:

Anyway I think I still like the brave against the grain reveals/resolutions in this film. The problem, I'm realising is that I'm not sure I'm happy with the reveals. Basically the execution is great and the content isn't. And it mainly boils down to the fact that everything is an anticlimax. Who is snoke? Doesn't matter he's dead. Who are Rey's parents? Nobodies. Finn's/ Poe's mission? Failure that makes things worse. What happened at jedi academy? A misunderstanding (nothing on Ren killing other padawans). Phasma? Still useless. Luke taking down Ren and a dozen at ATS? Just a hologram

Even rens helmet was thrown away in what now feels like Rian Johnson's answer to all JJ Abrams questions was one of dismissal. Which may reach Abram's not to set up mysteries with no thought out resolutions.

 

Even though I really liked the film except for the copout ending, I agree with this. 

When I watched Snoke in TFA I had a sneaky suspicion that ultimately he would be a letdown, not a real Sith etc. It could have gone the other way of course, but in the same way they don't have Luke train Rey, they also don't have Snoke train Ben Solo. He's just disappointed with him, there's no master-teacher relationship at all, just initial obedience from Kylo. But in the end it turns out that Snoke does not matter one bit, cannon fodder. Rey's parents is a disappointment but I've come to realize that subverting expectations is where it's all at. Fans want her to be a Skywalker, so we're going to go with the "anyone, even from the poorest background, can become the greatest" story. Luke's final stand? A hoax. I never cared for Phasma, a bit character in these films and I think some people just expected too much from her because it's Gwendoline Christie.

Having said all that, fivescenes that I loved in this film:

1) Luke and Leia reaching out across the stars telepathically. A genuine goosebump moment.

2) The throneroom scene, in combination with the interplay between Kylo and Ren upto that point, is a classic setpiece. Loved it.

3) Following from that, the scene with Kylo and Rey both reaching for the lightsabre at full strength and neither attaining an advantage was excellent.

4) The opening battle sequence with the awesome looking resistance bombers did it for me.

5) The scene on the icy moon where the AT's and the massive canon show up is truly stunning imagery. 

Did that cannon actually fire at some point or did it only need to warm up and that was sufficient? Don't recall, was too busy being annoyed at the girl who ruined Finn's suicide mission.

[A True Kaniggit]

2 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

 

5) The scene on the icy moon where the AT's and the massive canon show up is truly stunning imagery. 

Did that cannon actually fire at some point or did it only need to warm up and that was sufficient? Don't recall, was too busy being annoyed at the girl who ruined Finn's suicide mission.

5) salty. 

And the cannon did fire. It blew open the door to the base. 

[Fiddler]

5 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Even though I really liked the film except for the copout ending, I agree with this. 

When I watched Snoke in TFA I had a sneaky suspicion that ultimately he would be a letdown, not a real Sith etc. It could have gone the other way of course, but in the same way they don't have Luke train Rey, they also don't have Snoke train Ben Solo. He's just disappointed with him, there's no master-teacher relationship at all, just initial obedience from Kylo. But in the end it turns out that Snoke does not matter one bit, cannon fodder. Rey's parents is a disappointment but I've come to realize that subverting expectations is where it's all at. Fans want her to be a Skywalker, so we're going to go with the "anyone, even from the poorest background, can become the greatest" story. Luke's final stand? A hoax. I never cared for Phasma, a bit character in these films and I think some people just expected too much from her because it's Gwendoline Christie.

Having said all that, fivescenes that I loved in this film:

1) Luke and Leia reaching out across the stars telepathically. A genuine goosebump moment.

2) The throneroom scene, in combination with the interplay between Kylo and Ren upto that point, is a classic setpiece. Loved it.

3) Following from that, the scene with Kylo and Rey both reaching for the lightsabre at full strength and neither attaining an advantage was excellent.

4) The opening battle sequence with the awesome looking resistance bombers did it for me.

5) The scene on the icy moon where the AT's and the massive canon show up is truly stunning imagery. 

Did that cannon actually fire at some point or did it only need to warm up and that was sufficient? Don't recall, was too busy being annoyed at the girl who ruined Finn's suicide mission.

Great scenes. 

The cannon did fire, but not like one blast.  It was a steady beam I believe.  Basically melted a hole through the door.

[Slurktan]

3 minutes ago, Fiddler said:

Great scenes. 

The cannon did fire, but not like one blast.  It was a steady beam I believe.  Basically melted a hole through the door.

Also melted finns speeder thingy.  Well the bits where he conveniently wasn't even though being in the middle of the beam.

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, Fiddler said:

I can see that.

I also didn't see Holdo not telling Poe crap as a plot hole.  I mean he has proven to be reckless, was just demoted and is demanding to know what the plan is?  Then proves that her opinion was right about him by going behind her back.

My problem is that there's no reason given for why this plan was a secret from anyone at all. It's left to supporters of this plot point to contrive explanations for why it was something Holdo kept close to her chest, because Johnson and co. didn't care too. Or, perhaps, realizing that the obvious explanation was a traitor or spy in the Resistance meaning information security was at a premium, the natural result would be to leave people wondering why they were going off to Canto Blight when a spy-hunt can make for great cinema.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Anyone else think Yoda setting fire to the Jedi texts and his amusement at Luke’s horror is allegorical to Disney declaring the EU non-canon?

 

”But there’s so many stories in there!”

“Bit shit though, aren’t they?”

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

Anyone else think Yoda setting fire to the Jedi texts and his amusement at Luke’s horror is allegorical to Disney declaring the EU non-canon?

 

”But there’s so many stories in there!”

“Bit shit though, aren’t they?”

Well, except for the fact that the books weren't in there, and Yoda knew it when he set the tree on fire. 

[Werthead]

5 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

Anyone else think Yoda setting fire to the Jedi texts and his amusement at Luke’s horror is allegorical to Disney declaring the EU non-canon?

”But there’s so many stories in there!”

“Bit shit though, aren’t they?”

Since the texts survived, no, not really.

I feel this may have come up before.

Quote

 

I need to go back and check online to see which two Stormtroopers were played by Princes William and Harry. 

 

It's the scene where Rose and Finn are about to be executed by Phasma with those weird energy cheese wire pole things. I think the princes are prominent in the stormtroopers standing around (they're the two tallest ones). Tom Hardy is also in that scene, but I've no idea what stormtrooper he is.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Well, except for the fact that the books weren't in there, and Yoda knew it when he set the tree on fire. 

Ahh I remember a shot of some books in the Falcon now you mention it. Rey must have taken them.

Still funny though, and the allegory still holds water if some of the EU was subsequently made canon again, as I believe it was.