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Simon Steele

Gamergate? Toxic masculinity? Ready Player One?

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40 minutes ago, mormont said:

Sticking your head in the sand is not praiseworthy. If you exist in a nerd space, or anywhere else, it is a bad thing if you're not aware of the toxic people who share your space and are doing their best to exclude people who are not like them - or you. Particularly as it's only because you are a straight white male that you have the luxury of being able to ignore them, because you are not their target.

But that's kind of the point - many do not exist in said nerd space.  You'd be hard-pressed to find a 32 y/o white male more against gaming in general than me.  Accordingly, I also don't know wtf goes on in those circles.  Is it praiseworthy I don't?  No.  But I'm also not going to apologize for not knowing.  And I strongly suspect that Spielberg, or even Cline/Penn, are cognizant of this social responsibility that has been thrust upon them by internet outrage post hoc because they made a dumb movie in an attempt to make money.

49 minutes ago, mormont said:

And in my understanding, this is what lies behind a lot of the criticism of RPO. In the '80s, all nerds were to some extent looked down on. I was there, I know. But within that culture, some of us - straight white men - had privilege that others did not. And we failed to recognise that. We saw ourselves as the unjustly oppressed. And (not having read the book), my understanding of RPO is that it panders to that sense that straight white male nerds are the heroic underdogs in life. A sense shared, in a very toxic way, by Gamergaters. I agree that the linkage is something of a stretch, but at the same time it doesn't come from nothing. 

Ok, even if allowing that faulty correlation I don't really buy.  What about all the other movies that pander to white male nerds?  Hell, what about Black Panther?  Doesn't that implicitly promote agnatic primogeniture?  What about Lady Bird?  It took place in Sacramento, but had a notable lack of minorities.  Can't we just take filmmakers' intent at face value and not ascribe ignoble motives - or perhaps lack of noble motives - towards their output?  I think those behind RPO were simply trying to entertain people.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It's not their job to change gaming culture, or anything beyond entertaining you for an hour and a half.

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Posted (edited)

GRRM enjoyed Armada:

https://grrm.livejournal.com/434047.html

Quote

I read an ARC of the long-awaited new novel from Ernie Cline of READY PLAYER ONE fame. ARMADA, like READY PLAYER ONE, is a paean to the videogames of a bygone era, and like READY PLAYER ONE it is a tremendous amount of fun for anyone who remembers that time and played those games. (Those who did not may find it incomprehensible, admittedly). Those of you who liked the old movie THE LAST STARFIGHTER will really like this one. Hugely entertaining... though it does make me wonder if we'll ever see Ernie write something that isn't about videogames. He's a talented guy, and I am sure that anything he writes would be terrific.

Edited by Jussi

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19 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

But that's kind of the point - many do not exist in said nerd space.  You'd be hard-pressed to find a 32 y/o white male more against gaming in general than me.  Accordingly, I also don't know wtf goes on in those circles.  Is it praiseworthy I don't?  No.  But I'm also not going to apologize for not knowing.  And I strongly suspect that Spielberg, or even Cline/Penn, are cognizant of this social responsibility that has been thrust upon them by internet outrage post hoc because they made a dumb movie in an attempt to make money.

That's why I say 'nerd space' not 'gamer space'. Gamergate is not a thing that is hermetically isolated in gaming circles. It's already been noted that GG has spread to comics fandom, and of course the Sad Puppy thing was largely the same people in SF book spaces. 

And with respect, that you are unaware of it does not mean that it does not exist in the spaces you inhabit. It may instead mean you are oblivious to it. That you are able to be oblivious to it, because you're not the target. (Neither am I.) 

I'm certainly not asking anyone to apologise for not knowing, but at the same time, you clearly do know about it now. 

19 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Ok, even if allowing that faulty correlation I don't really buy.  What about all the other movies that pander to white male nerds?

Yeah, many of them are problematic too. That doesn't mean I don't love them. But they centre the white male nerd and are oblivious to other nerds. But they are examples of that culture, whereas RPO is a celebration of it, at least as I understand things. That makes a difference, I think.

Why do you think Black Panther was such a huge phenomenon, by the way? It wasn't the agnatic primogeniture driving those huge box office numbers. Same with Wonder Woman. 

19 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Can't we just take filmmakers' intent at face value and not ascribe ignoble motives - or perhaps lack of noble motives - towards their output?  I think those behind RPO were simply trying to entertain people.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

I'm not impugning anyone's motives, but it's not good enough in any walk of life to say 'they meant well' and just end the discussion there. 

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3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I'd wager quite a bit if you asked Spielberg about the movie's "Gamergate baggage," he'd have no fucking idea what you were talking about.  Frankly, neither do I, and I don't think that's a bad thing.  I don't see why anybody has to be "woke" about a subculture that's apparently misogynistic.  Really, why would I want to be knowledgeable about this subculture?  Shouldn't I continue to avoid it (which I was already doing in the first place)?  The whole thing seems ass-backwards to me.  I also strongly agree with your point in the 4th graph - angry white males are everywhere - certainly not just nerd culture, and when I teach I have to combat them in everyday life.  So that's a big part why I really don't want to know what the hell they're doing on the internet.

I don't think you have to be 'knowledgeable' about it. But do I think people should generally be aware that it happened? Yes, I do.

Avoiding/ignoring bad people in the hope that they stop being mean or go away is often suggested as a remedy when someone is being bothered/harassed/bullied (usually by people who are not affected by it).

What Kair already said, basically.

Also, 'apparently misogynistic' lol.

 

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26 minutes ago, mormont said:

And with respect, that you are unaware of it does not mean that it does not exist in the spaces you inhabit. It may instead mean you are oblivious to it. That you are able to be oblivious to it, because you're not the target. (Neither am I.) 

I'm certainly not asking anyone to apologise for not knowing, but at the same time, you clearly do know about it now. 

Well, yes, I am aware of it because I occupy this very space right here.  The main argument is that I doubt those that produced RPO thought their movie was promoting anything of the sort when putting the film together.  For instance, @karaddin mentioned that all women on social media deal with these type of dickheads all the time.  That's undoubtedly true, and it sucks.  However, I know of very few people - male or female - that would recognize even the term gamergate if I mentioned it to them.  The point is, men are going to behave badly.  Is gaming culture perpetuating this?  Maybe.  Or maybe these type of men would find another way to be horrible people if videogames didn't exist.  I suspect the latter, and anecdotally, I see a lot more dangerous men that I want to kick the shit out of of in the real world than I've ever had asking my brother about his douchy gaming friends.

40 minutes ago, mormont said:

But they are examples of that culture, whereas RPO is a celebration of it, at least as I understand things. That makes a difference, I think.

First, wait, this seems to imply Black Panther wasn't a celebration of black culture, when in fact it was an awesome celebration of black culture.  Second, I don't really see how RPO being a "celebration" is a difference.  In fact it sounds a lot like a distinction without a difference.  Ultimately, Grease is a celebration of a dangerous era.  And Sideways is a celebration of a dangerous subculture, when you think about it.  Like I said, I neither identify with the culture nor the era of RPO, but I'm not about to criticize anybody's basic right to celebrate that shit.  And for that matter, I'd be open to go see any movie if it's good no matter what culture it's celebrating, or "exemplifying."  What culture was Godfather or Citizen Kane celebrating - or were they just "examples"?  You can go down the list from there.

53 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm not impugning anyone's motives, but it's not good enough in any walk of life to say 'they meant well' and just end the discussion there.

I'm not saying "they meant well."  I'm saying they probably didn't know, and even if they did, it was irrelevant to their interest in making a profitable and (hopefully) good movie.

51 minutes ago, Isis said:

Also, 'apparently misogynistic' lol.

I said apparently because I honestly do not know for a fact, nor care to.  As for the rest, see above.

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9 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Hell, you don't even want to get me started on Scott Pilgram.

 

You know my first instince was to defend and say gamers aren't actually that bad and the gamergate problem isn't that big...but yeah we are and yeah it is :/ It's just not a gamer only problem. Shit, see Star Wars fans lately. (Not knocking you people who don;t like Episode whatever, thinking of the people who don't like Rose cause she's fat and wanted to see a film about her sister cause she was hotter).

Ohh I'm going to go off on a tangent, so I'll stop.

I feel like this is something @Kalbear would have a lot to say about.

I loved Rose as a new addition--though episode 8 was great. Just a tangent :) 

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9 hours ago, drawkcabi said:

Gamergaters sabotaged any legit arguments they had (and they had some) with the tantrums, attacks, bigotry, misogyny, and prejudice the worst of them perpetrated and the best of them didn't condemn near good enough.

Now there's a comicsgate thing going on too. :rolleyes: 

Again with some legitimate grievances all around, and this time there's some really bad and inexcusable mud being slung by both sides (and this isn't Charlottesville, there really are good people and bad people on both sides here).

With Ready Player One, I'm not going to be ashamed of loving what I love, the nostalgia of the 80's, pop culture, and whatever. Anyone who wants to join me, glad to have you, those who weren't there or didn't have a happy time back then, I get it, and I respect that, but don't shame me because I was and I did. Also, I'm not going to dislike it because it's missing this point, is seen as sexist or not diverse enough. Maybe another book or movie or TV show will come along and do it better but, for me, what's good about this one is good enough that what's bad about it either didn't bother me or I didn't notice it.

It's fine to criticize Ready Player One, maybe make people like me see your point in what's wrong with it, but it's really not OK to criticize the people who like Ready Player One just because they like it.

And the people who like it don't need to get their hackles up for people only criticizing the book or movie.

This is what was bugging me too. You said it much better than I did. Thank you. 

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3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Well, yes, I am aware of it because I occupy this very space right here.  The main argument is that I doubt those that produced RPO thought their movie was promoting anything of the sort when putting the film together.  For instance, @karaddin mentioned that all women on social media deal with these type of dickheads all the time.  That's undoubtedly true, and it sucks.  However, I know of very few people - male or female - that would recognize even the term gamergate if I mentioned it to them. 

Mmm. But I don't think you would dispute that RPO is a story about gamer and nerd culture, and that if you're making such a story in 2018 you should be aware of major issues in said culture, and that gamergate is such an issue. Whether you reflect it in the story is perhaps another issue, but it would not be a good defence to say that Spielberg couldn't be expected to be aware of it. That would just be saying that Spielberg didn't do his research. 

3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

The point is, men are going to behave badly.  Is gaming culture perpetuating this?  Maybe.  Or maybe these type of men would find another way to be horrible people if videogames didn't exist. 

It's not an either/or. They may be horrible anyway, but that doesn't mean that gamer culture (or a specific type of gamer culture) doesn't foster that horribleness and encourage its expression in harmful ways, or that it doesn't project a justification for that horrible behaviour. 

3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

First, wait, this seems to imply Black Panther wasn't a celebration of black culture, when in fact it was an awesome celebration of black culture. 

No, I'm saying exactly the opposite. Black Panther was an awesome celebration of black culture in a nerdy context. It showed that not all nerds are RPO-type nerds, white guys with white cultural touchstones. It showed the untapped audience that exists for this type of film. By contrast RPO, it seems to me, caters for an audience that both historically and currently is already well provided for. 

3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Second, I don't really see how RPO being a "celebration" is a difference.  In fact it sounds a lot like a distinction without a difference. 

To pick a concrete example: The Iron Giant is a story about a giant robot. RPO is a story about how, among other things, The Iron Giant is awesome and people who like it are cool. (I love The Iron Giant myself.) 

That's a very different thing, it seems to me, and the latter communicates a very different message. YMMV. 

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8 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Ah, a Vox article, explained.  I'm pretty sure if the Grand Unified Theory is ever achieved, they would find a way to boringly explain it using a LaTeX format.  Count me as one who is wholly out of the loop on Gamergate or any version of Ready Player One.  I'm also not a fan of Steven Spielberg, the 80s, or gaming in general in spite of my age.  But the Vox piece doesn't even seem to indict Spielberg or RPO in toto, but rather seems obsessed with gamergate as an inflection point the film must address:

I'd wager quite a bit if you asked Spielberg about the movie's "Gamergate baggage," he'd have no fucking idea what you were talking about.  Frankly, neither do I, and I don't think that's a bad thing.  I don't see why anybody has to be "woke" about a subculture that's apparently misogynistic.  Really, why would I want to be knowledgeable about this subculture?  Shouldn't I continue to avoid it (which I was already doing in the first place)?  The whole thing seems ass-backwards to me.  I also strongly agree with your point in the 4th graph - angry white males are everywhere - certainly not just nerd culture, and when I teach I have to combat them in everyday life.  So that's a big part why I really don't want to know what the hell they're doing on the internet.

If mythologizing 80s pop culture and making a bad movie out of an old book now means you're "part of the problem," then yeah, the internet has lowered the bar once again.

I'm a teacher too. They are everywhere. I work really hard to try and help them reflect on long held beliefs they've likely never evaluated before (I teach argument, after all). I think it worked...once. The saddest/scariest thing is how well some of them hide it.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, mormont said:

But it undoubtedly is. 

Ignorance is never a good thing. A lack of knowledge is what allows shit like Gamergate to flourish. The 'it's about ethics in games journalism' line? That doesn't stand up to a second's scrutiny, but it exists because most people don't give it a second's scrutiny. That's why it's useful. 

Sticking your head in the sand is not praiseworthy. If you exist in a nerd space, or anywhere else, it is a bad thing if you're not aware of the toxic people who share your space and are doing their best to exclude people who are not like them - or you. Particularly as it's only because you are a straight white male that you have the luxury of being able to ignore them, because you are not their target. 

And in my understanding, this is what lies behind a lot of the criticism of RPO. In the '80s, all nerds were to some extent looked down on. I was there, I know. But within that culture, some of us - straight white men - had privilege that others did not. And we failed to recognise that. We saw ourselves as the unjustly oppressed. And (not having read the book), my understanding of RPO is that it panders to that sense that straight white male nerds are the heroic underdogs in life. A sense shared, in a very toxic way, by Gamergaters. I agree that the linkage is something of a stretch, but at the same time it doesn't come from nothing. 

Hm, I keep replying, and I won't do this again (instead of multiquoting, you guys all make so many good points), but that's interesting Mormont. I was a nerdy white male in the 80s, and I know what it feels like too, but my parents made good money, and I suppose I did go through life a long time (privileged) but thinking I understood a certain level of oppression. I didn't. I didn't realize that until I deployed and really had to put myself in other's shoes. That changed me. And to be clear: it made me realize that I do not understand oppression at all, and I never did. 

I hadn't thought of it this way--thanks for helping with some clarification. I don't think it's wrong to love your past and enjoy it, but I had completely missed how this so easily bleeds over into the toxicity.

Edited by Simon Steele

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I used to be in game development. Oh my Lord, the shitty "fans" are so toxic. There are plenty of nice people, but even twenty years ago, when the battleground was message boards and IRC and not Facebook and Twitter, the toxic entitlement and whiny, ignorant rage was a lot to take.

One of my good friends at the time actually posted on a message board, "Your ten bucks a month does not entitle you to talk about my mother." They have gotten worse and more pervasive since then. I don't think I'd encourage my son to go into games as a career unless something changes. Nowadays, I can't think of the game industry without thinking of Hunter S. Thompson's quote on writing: "I've always thought of writing as the most hateful kind of work. I suppose it's a bit like fucking, which is only fun for amateurs."

80s nerd culture has a lot to cringe over. Like the "romance" plotline in "Revenge of the Nerds" has the cheerleader fall in love with the nerd protagonist because he had sex with her while disguised as her boyfriend -- at a carnival where his frat had been selling illicitly acquired nude photos of her. But the logic of the movie says she deserved to be revenge-porned and raped because she was mean and rejected the nerd's advances instead of giving him the sexual gratification that was his due. I think you'll find that far too much of the culture that RPO celebrates treats women as sexual trophies. Of course, that's the problem with a WHOLE LOT of popular culture, but it's particularly noticeable with the Gamergate crowd.

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3 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

I used to be in game development. Oh my Lord, the shitty "fans" are so toxic. There are plenty of nice people, but even twenty years ago, when the battleground was message boards and IRC and not Facebook and Twitter, the toxic entitlement and whiny, ignorant rage was a lot to take.

One of my good friends at the time actually posted on a message board, "Your ten bucks a month does not entitle you to talk about my mother." They have gotten worse and more pervasive since then. I don't think I'd encourage my son to go into games as a career unless something changes. Nowadays, I can't think of the game industry without thinking of Hunter S. Thompson's quote on writing: "I've always thought of writing as the most hateful kind of work. I suppose it's a bit like fucking, which is only fun for amateurs."

80s nerd culture has a lot to cringe over. Like the "romance" plotline in "Revenge of the Nerds" has the cheerleader fall in love with the nerd protagonist because he had sex with her while disguised as her boyfriend -- at a carnival where his frat had been selling illicitly acquired nude photos of her. But the logic of the movie says she deserved to be revenge-porned and raped because she was mean and rejected the nerd's advances instead of giving him the sexual gratification that was his due. I think you'll find that far too much of the culture that RPO celebrates treats women as sexual trophies. Of course, that's the problem with a WHOLE LOT of popular culture, but it's particularly noticeable with the Gamergate crowd.

Agreed. If you celebrate the 80s, I think you can also acknowledge the terrible aspects too and use those moments to see how issues like rape culture are still so prevalent and hand-waved away as if non-existent. I never saw Revenge of the Nerds, but I know the scene you're talking about from how often it's referenced, and that's awful. Some of my favorite comedies have severe issues with them when looking back through the current lens the Me Too movement has provided some of us slower to the take. 40 Year Old Virgin for example, or when I was in college, American Pie was a huge movie, and while I liked it then (not at all now), a movie like that is full of issues that couldn't (and shouldn't) be celebrated now.

I suppose I need to read RPO to truly understand the fundamental criticism in this way, though the article above seemed to rip apart for being poorly written and thought out. I felt like the book was more like, "hey I'm jumping around like Mario," based on the description. It'll be interesting to see how that looks.

Some of the culture you can celebrate. I wonder if I wear my Castlevania II Simon's Quest shirt, will I be lumped into angry, misogynist though? Sometimes I fear that we don't want to parse the areas where harmless lies and where toxic creeps toward the line. In the music of the 80s, you can listen to Motley Crue, but you have to know it's promoting a really misogynistic attitude about women. You can jump back in time earlier than 80s and say, "I love Gary Puckett" but listening to his song "Young Girl" really doesn't feel okay. I think it helps to point out problematic areas, but not to shut people out of what they love.

The toxic culture, though, I really think permeates much more than gaming. It's like saying because school shooters were gamers, that's what caused them to be killers. I think we're just finding places where these groups of nasty people are concentrating, but one is not the other. 

Though, to be fair, since my son (now 13) has played more online games on his PS4, he has picked up some real shitty turns of phrase that I have to work diligently to coach him out away from: such as "your mom."

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

The toxic culture, though, I really think permeates much more than gaming. It's like saying because school shooters were gamers, that's what caused them to be killers. I think we're just finding places where these groups of nasty people are concentrating, but one is not the other. 

I think the issue with toxicity in gaming is the same with toxicity everywhere online.  It gives people a platform to be assholes anonymously, and people love to be assholes when they know there are no consequences for it.  I do think the issue is somewhat overstated, though.  As someone who regularly plays games online, I find you run into far more people who either don't talk or are decent people than you do assholes.  The difference is that it's typically the toxic ones who stand out, because you're far more likely to remember a particularly bad gaming session than a normal one.

The whole GamerGate movement seems to be a minority group of racist, sexist pricks who are only noticed because they are loud and obnoxious.  I don't think they are representative of gaming as a whole, and unlike, say, the alt-right movement in this country (of which I'm sure many GamerGaters are members), they don't really have a platform of power in the games industry.  Hell, the developers at MachineGames openly mocked those type of people in the ad campaign leading up to the release of the newest Wolfenstein, which I found notable because you rarely see a company unafraid of alienating some potential customers.  

Edited by briantw

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3 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

I used to be in game development. Oh my Lord, the shitty "fans" are so toxic. There are plenty of nice people, but even twenty years ago, when the battleground was message boards and IRC and not Facebook and Twitter, the toxic entitlement and whiny, ignorant rage was a lot to take.

One of my good friends at the time actually posted on a message board, "Your ten bucks a month does not entitle you to talk about my mother." They have gotten worse and more pervasive since then. I don't think I'd encourage my son to go into games as a career unless something changes. Nowadays, I can't think of the game industry without thinking of Hunter S. Thompson's quote on writing: "I've always thought of writing as the most hateful kind of work. I suppose it's a bit like fucking, which is only fun for amateurs."

80s nerd culture has a lot to cringe over. Like the "romance" plotline in "Revenge of the Nerds" has the cheerleader fall in love with the nerd protagonist because he had sex with her while disguised as her boyfriend -- at a carnival where his frat had been selling illicitly acquired nude photos of her. But the logic of the movie says she deserved to be revenge-porned and raped because she was mean and rejected the nerd's advances instead of giving him the sexual gratification that was his due. I think you'll find that far too much of the culture that RPO celebrates treats women as sexual trophies. Of course, that's the problem with a WHOLE LOT of popular culture, but it's particularly noticeable with the Gamergate crowd.

Absolutely.

College humor did a great piece on this funny but at the same time eye opening.

 

I think it's fine to still embrace the nostalgia of the times and movies like Revenge of the Nerds as long as you're open and aware to the problems they have, like they say about old Looney Tunes cartoons "It wasn't right then, and it's not right now". But if someone enjoyed Revenge of the Nerds back in the day, you can't take that away from them, not just saying you shouldn't, but you can't, it happened and that's that. If someone feels enjoying that movie was a positive thing in their past but they also respect those that have problems with it and why, then it's fine to keep enjoying it, especially if there's still perceived value in a work, whether it's Looney Tunes or Revenge of the Nerds, or whatever, despite its sexism, racism, etc. While the work itself can and should be considered fair game for criticism, a person respectfully enjoying it shouldn't.

 

 

4 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

This is what was bugging me too. You said it much better than I did. Thank you. 

Thank you. I have a tendency to ramble and mish-mash my thoughts while trying to get them out (see above) I appreciate it when someone gets me :) 

I also think the flip side of the coin is really important too though, when I said:

"And the people who like it don't need to get their hackles up for people only criticizing the book or movie."

because this is a true "both sides" thing with people acting respectful and shameful on both sides.

 

Quote

I suppose I need to read RPO to truly understand the fundamental criticism in this way, though the article above seemed to rip apart for being poorly written and thought out. I felt like the book was more like, "hey I'm jumping around like Mario," based on the description. It'll be interesting to see how that looks.

I consider myself lucky I read it when it first came out. I think if I waited until now I couldn't help by hyper aware of issues I was blissfully ignorant of when first reading the work. I feel it's a good things the problems people have with the book have been brought to my attention, but I'm very glad I got the experience of enjoying it first without all that in my head. And as you've seen, some people who embrace the 80's nostalgia still dislike the book, while others like me loved it for what it was, which to me was just the equivalent of a popcorn movie, one that's really fun and well done for only what it's trying to be.

Quote

Some of the culture you can celebrate. I wonder if I wear my Castlevania II Simon's Quest shirt, will I be lumped into angry, misogynist though? Sometimes I fear that we don't want to parse the areas where harmless lies and where toxic creeps toward the line. In the music of the 80s, you can listen to Motley Crue, but you have to know it's promoting a really misogynistic attitude about women. You can jump back in time earlier than 80s and say, "I love Gary Puckett" but listening to his song "Young Girl" really doesn't feel okay. I think it helps to point out problematic areas, but not to shut people out of what they love.

Totally agree.

 

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2 hours ago, briantw said:

I think the issue with toxicity in gaming is the same with toxicity everywhere online.  It gives people a platform to be assholes anonymously, and people love to be assholes when they know there are no consequences for it.  I do think the issue is somewhat overstated, though.  As someone who regularly plays games online, I find you run into far more people who either don't talk or are decent people than you do assholes.  The difference is that it's typically the toxic ones who stand out, because you're far more likely to remember a particularly bad gaming session than a normal one.

The whole GamerGate movement seems to be a minority group of racist, sexist pricks who are only noticed because they are loud and obnoxious.  I don't think they are representative of gaming as a whole, and unlike, say, the alt-right movement in this country (of which I'm sure many GamerGaters are members), they don't really have a platform of power in the games industry.  Hell, the developers at MachineGames openly mocked those type of people in the ad campaign leading up to the release of the newest Wolfenstein, which I found notable because you rarely see a company unafraid of alienating some potential customers.  

If i am remembering correctly though, were not sales of the new Wolfenstein fairly low?

 

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20 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

If i am remembering correctly though, were not sales of the new Wolfenstein fairly low?

From what I've been able to dig up in a few minutes of googling, it seems like it sold all right.  But you have to consider that it's a single-player only game of limited length, so sales are just not going to be as high as they would be for games that are multi-player focused.  

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

From what I've been able to dig up in a few minutes of googling, it seems like it sold all right.  But you have to consider that it's a single-player only game of limited length, so sales are just not going to be as high as they would be for games that are multi-player focused.  

I'd read somewhere sakes were way below expectations, but that's a tangent.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

If i am remembering correctly though, were not sales of the new Wolfenstein fairly low?

 

I also think it came out at a time with heavy competition. Games that came out that fall: Divinity 2, new Middle Earth, Evil Within 2, South Park 2, Destiny 2 (!) the week before Wolfenstein 2, Assassin's Creed Origins the same week, Call of Duty World War the following week--I mean, I'm not saying those are great games, but attention stealers for sure. 

 

It's funny I said "that fall" as if 2017 was so long ago, haha. Damn, from that short time at the end of October when Wolfenstein came out, you also had Horizon Zero Dawn and Battlefront 2 (which had huge issues, but by the time that came out, I'd completely forgotten about games from October).

Edited by Simon Steele

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8 hours ago, mormont said:

Mmm. But I don't think you would dispute that RPO is a story about gamer and nerd culture, and that if you're making such a story in 2018 you should be aware of major issues in said culture, and that gamergate is such an issue. Whether you reflect it in the story is perhaps another issue, but it would not be a good defence to say that Spielberg couldn't be expected to be aware of it. That would just be saying that Spielberg didn't do his research. 

Fair enough on Spielberg and/or the writers being aware of gamergate, but the bolded is what I find problematic.  I'm not even entirely clear how one would reflect it in the story, but even if that could be done, I think assigning such responsibility to people that are just trying to produce an entertaining film is off-base.  And admonishing them for not doing so, or not doing so sufficiently enough based on what can often be impossible standards, is especially unfair. 

As for the rest of your response, I don't find anything stated objectionable and/or worth arguing - although unfortunately the Iron Giant example escapes me as I know nothing about it. :(

8 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I'm a teacher too. They are everywhere. I work really hard to try and help them reflect on long held beliefs they've likely never evaluated before (I teach argument, after all). I think it worked...once. The saddest/scariest thing is how well some of them hide it.

Ha!  That's all you can hope for, right?  And yeah, it is scary how well so many hide it.

8 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Like the "romance" plotline in "Revenge of the Nerds" has the cheerleader fall in love with the nerd protagonist because he had sex with her while disguised as her boyfriend -- at a carnival where his frat had been selling illicitly acquired nude photos of her. But the logic of the movie says she deserved to be revenge-porned and raped because she was mean and rejected the nerd's advances instead of giving him the sexual gratification that was his due.

Oh damn!  Nice call, made me remember that now.  Yikes.

15 hours ago, Ran said:

Hah. Well played.

What a scene. Writing, performance, score, editing, all coming together.

BTW, watching that scene motivated me to start a rewatch of Mad Men.  Thanks for that.

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