Illyrio dragon eggs. a plot hole?

[Tagganaro]

20 hours ago, IceRaven said:

I never understood why Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to dany if his master plan was to support Aegon. It seems a waste of money to me, they are really expensive, the better thing to do were to get rid of Viserys in some way, marry dany to Aegon or get rid of her to and just sell the eggs for pay more mercenary, he even knew the  dothraki are scared of the salt water. Is this a plot hole? Because I can't see him doing a master plan to put mirri maz dhur in a random city, hope she will not die and hatch the dragon egg.

I don't think GRRM conceived of the "Aegon" plotline until after writing AGOT.  So at that point in time, you can just sub in Dany/Viserys for Aegon.  Then when he conceived of "Aegon" he basically substituted Dany for Aegon.  Illyrio has money and even though he makes off handsomely when he sells Dany to Drogo, I don't think Illyrio would put up with hiding Viserys and Dany and housing and feeding them if he wasn't truly loyal to the Targs.  

Having said that, I'm still unsure of what Illyrio's plans were with respect to Viserys.  It's clear that Illyrio has no respect for Vis and between Illyrio and Jorah I can't imagine they could ever think he'd be capable of any kind of rule.  Maybe he always thought Vis would die and Dany was the true leader?  I have trouble believing that as well but who knows?

[Moiraine Sedai]

5 hours ago, bent branch said:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. ASOS - Chapter 25.

Illyrio gave the petrified (stone) eggs to Dany, because he believed she was the prophesized to wake dragons from stone. Illyrio and Varys are working to help bring the prophecy to reality.

Maybe so.  And if Aegon is a blackfyre and Illyrio knew, he would seriously doubt whether the boy would be able to bond with a dragon.  Yes, they share the same bloodline but the Blackfyre line is probably too watered down by now.  

[jthurman14]

I think the eggs were payment to get rid of the pain in the arse Viserys. Viserys was old enough to start showing the Targ-nutz. If Viserys was of sound mind it may have gone differently. FAegon was the fall back plan if Viserys turned out to be targ-nutz. Dany was also "not expected to return".

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I don't think GRRM conceived of the "Aegon" plotline until after writing AGOT.  So at that point in time, you can just sub in Dany/Viserys for Aegon.  Then when he conceived of "Aegon" he basically substituted Dany for Aegon.  Illyrio has money and even though he makes off handsomely when he sells Dany to Drogo, I don't think Illyrio would put up with hiding Viserys and Dany and housing and feeding them if he wasn't truly loyal to the Targs.  

Having said that, I'm still unsure of what Illyrio's plans were with respect to Viserys.  It's clear that Illyrio has no respect for Vis and between Illyrio and Jorah I can't imagine they could ever think he'd be capable of any kind of rule.  Maybe he always thought Vis would die and Dany was the true leader?  I have trouble believing that as well but who knows?

@Ran has suggested that the George only developed the Blackfyre subplot  (assuming there is a Blackfyre subplot) before Storm, and apparently after, but maybe during the completion of Clash. Before Clash, though, which was completed within two years of Game, he had already conceived of the mummer's dragon, a villain for the heroine to fight. And although the Blackfyre was not mentioned until Storm, the Dance of the Dragons was mentioned in Game. Since Rhaegar's son Aegon's body was unrecognizable, I think it's safe for any reader to assume that Aegon or an imposter would return to challenge Daenerys. And since we are given every reason to suspect the true motives of Varys and Illyrio from the very beginning,  I think we can assume that the return of Aegon was planned when Game was written. From there, the George apparently developed the Blackfyre subplot. Of course I am assuming that Aegon is the descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. 

[Azarial]

32 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Ran has suggested that the George only developed the Blackfyre subplot  (assuming there is a Blackfyre subplot) before Storm, and apparently after, but maybe during the completion of Clash. Before Clash, though, which was completed within two years of Game, he had already conceived of the mummer's dragon, a villain for the heroine to fight. And although the Blackfyre was not mentioned until Storm, the Dance of the Dragons was mentioned in Game. Since Rhaegar's son Aegon's body was unrecognizable, I think it's safe for any reader to assume that Aegon or an imposter would return to challenge Daenerys. And since we are given every reason to suspect the true motives of Varys and Illyrio from the very beginning,  I think we can assume that the return of Aegon was planned when Game was written. From there, the George apparently developed the Blackfyre subplot. Of course I am assuming that Aegon is the descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. 

I think this is key. He didn't have the details, but had a fake in mind. What has always made the most sense to me is that fAegon had them first. (or that one was kept in his cradle, or they were in the home where he was raised.) But, he never bonded to them, they never hatched so Illyrio assumed they were dead and gave them Dany, believing they were now just pretty rocks and whenever having Illyrio be backing the fake is when how she got the eggs switched to him gifting them, as apposed to her finding them.

 

20 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And finally the odd one of the group, the Greyjoys... 

I know they had their own rebellion... but do they really belong on the list?

I recognize that it may just be an archaic remnant of the early tale before it was developed, still...

Euron Greyjoy returns at an oddly opportune time... with help from a Faceless Man... and claims to have once had a dragon’s egg...

What if Illyrio gave Dany the old stone eggs for her Wedding because he had acquired a living dragon egg from Euron Greyjoy and in return hired or arranged a Faceless Man kill Balon?

(Note: all wild speculation!)

I love this, especially when paired with him saying he had a sorcerer or wizard say he could hatch the egg if given a year (and that is what Illyrio calls Vary's in the red keep dungeons) and then he says after 9m he threw it into the sea. No one thinks of the Dothraki sea when he says this, but it makes perfect sense. It also explains why he hung on to Dragon binder, he kept it to claim the dragon from the egg that originally belonged to him. No idea if your tinfoil is solid or not, but I like it.

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Ran has suggested that the George only developed the Blackfyre subplot  (assuming there is a Blackfyre subplot) before Storm, and apparently after, but maybe during the completion of Clash. Before Clash, though, which was completed within two years of Game, he had already conceived of the mummer's dragon, a villain for the heroine to fight. And although the Blackfyre was not mentioned until Storm, the Dance of the Dragons was mentioned in Game. Since Rhaegar's son Aegon's body was unrecognizable, I think it's safe for any reader to assume that Aegon or an imposter would return to challenge Daenerys. And since we are given every reason to suspect the true motives of Varys and Illyrio from the very beginning,  I think we can assume that the return of Aegon was planned when Game was written. From there, the George apparently developed the Blackfyre subplot. Of course I am assuming that Aegon is the descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. 

Interesting.  I continue to be so intrigued (and incredibly confused) by Varys and Illyrio's plotting and machinations throughout the novels, particularly in AGOT.  Varys seems to fluctuate so wildly between "serving the realm" and plotting wars that will destroy it.  One thing that I've latched onto is Varys's convo with Illyrio that Arya overhears in AGOT.  It seems at the very least he is heavily counting on Dany and the Dothraki to get to Westeros...are the dragon eggs just an expensive wedding gift or is there some "magical" knowledge that Illyrio has that he's counting on Dany to hatch them?  

ETA:  Also, the more I think about it I guess having the backup "Aegon" in mind from the beginning makes sense, given that there is no way Varys and Illyrio would think Viserys ruling would "serve the realm" nor would they think that he's even capable of ruling.

[867-5309]

4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I don't think GRRM conceived of the "Aegon" plotline until after writing AGOT.  So at that point in time, you can just sub in Dany/Viserys for Aegon.  Then when he conceived of "Aegon" he basically substituted Dany for Aegon.  Illyrio has money and even though he makes off handsomely when he sells Dany to Drogo, I don't think Illyrio would put up with hiding Viserys and Dany and housing and feeding them if he wasn't truly loyal to the Targs.  

Having said that, I'm still unsure of what Illyrio's plans were with respect to Viserys.  It's clear that Illyrio has no respect for Vis and between Illyrio and Jorah I can't imagine they could ever think he'd be capable of any kind of rule.  Maybe he always thought Vis would die and Dany was the true leader?  I have trouble believing that as well but who knows?

Perhaps Viserys was meant to be a puppet ruler, like a figure head.  Appeal to his vanity and he can be easy to manipulate.  At least that could have been Illyrio's assessment.  Besides, choosing a king is not so much about the individual but about putting the Targaryen dynasty back in power.  So if V&I are Targaryen loyalists they will be looking at the bigger picture and the longer term.  It may even be that they had a female in mind for the prince.  A female from the Blackfyre line.  Putting the two together could bridge the chasm that exists between the Targaryens and the Blackfyres.  Aegon + Blackfyre female would not heal that wound, if we assume Aegon is a Blackfyre.  They needed a Targaryen married to a Blackfyre.  

A plan like this will have a lot of risks but the rewards can be wonderful.  Let us assume the case above.  King Viserys, the third of his name marries a Blackfyre girl.  Yes, blondie would protests but eventually he will see the need for it.  That puts Westeros under Targaryen-Blackfyre rule.  Should the marriage between Princess Daenerys and Khal Drogo prove successful, that builds a very strong bond between East and West.  If the Stallion were to prove himself strong enough, he could fulfill Drogo's wish of uniting all of the khalasars.  That is a future where Essos and Westeros are under Targaryen control.

[Leo of House Cartel]

On 6/5/2018 at 1:34 AM, Seams said:

I like the idea of additional hidden eggs and that a prophecy is involved. We know that Maester Aemon and Rhaegar were communicating about a prophecy, because Aemon admits that they had overlooked the reality that dragons can be both male and female (or something like that). There is apparently a confusing prophecy known to Targaryen insiders and we know that various Targaryens tried various extreme things over the years to hatch dragons.

If the prophecy had to do with the dying out of dragons and their eventual rebirth, Illyrio and Varys may have planned to get eggs to each of the young Targs at various points, hoping one of them would hit on the right technique for hatching the eggs. Dany just happened to hit the jackpot before any of the boys received their eggs.

We know that Jon Connington has Tyrion write down everything he knows about dragons. Arya hears Illyrio and Varys in the depths of the Red Keep say, "he has the bastard and the book," and the reader assumes they mean that Ned has discovered Gendry and the information about Baratheon hair color. But what if they actually mean that the bastard Jon Snow is at Winterfell and the Winterfell library has a book that contains the prophecy or information about hatching dragons? They might be worried that a Targ bastard will hatch dragons without being under their control.

I'm all for the scenario you laid out - gifting Dany, Aegon and Viserys with eggs (and seeing who's hatches first) might very well have been in Illyrio's plans. Might as well maximise the chances of succeeding in an endeavour that many others have failed to do. 

If we go by this, I assume Viserys would have displayed to much arrogance for a shrewd businessman like Mopatis to gift him an egg of his own, although I guess he could have attempted to claim one of his sister's, anyway.

This leaves Aegon. While we have not seen the perfect prince with an egg of his own, their is still a strong chance he already has one/several. Illyrio could also make a gift of a few eggs upon Aegon's coronation, or some other big event.

Young Griff might have had eggs stashed in his cabin on the Shy Maid all along - although to be fair, such a risk seems a bit too much for the likes of Illyrio and Varys.

I like that term Targaryen Insiders - makes me think of how much TPTWP fable differs from that kooky Azor Ahai tale. I wouldn't be surprised if The Prince That Was Promised story is perhaps more focused on dragons.

Tagaryen Insiders over the years would probably include the likes of Aegon V, Maester Aemon and Brynden Rivers - men with Access to old prophecies and multiple works of historical and mythological literature. If Varys and Illyrio do have a few drops of dragon blood, they might have access to the same documents and scrolls as their previously mentioned ancestors. Even if they have no relation to the Targaryens, researching the likes of Aegon V couldn't hurt - they are backing a "Dragon", why not research as much as one can about the people who actually had fire breathing companions, as well as those who tried to bring them back?

As far as what we know about Varys and his knowledge of magic, he has that famous story about "getting cut" - in my estimations, the Varys we know (or think we know) is an incredibly studious plotter, and would want to find out as much as he could about this power which had bested him, lest someone tries something similar in his later life. I guess such a sentiment would extend to many other forms of magic, including dragons.

I really like that idea about Varys and Illyrio refering to Jon whilst talking beneath the Red Keep  I guess the question would then be who exactly were they referring to when they said "he has the boy and the book"? Aemon? Bloodraven?

 

[Azarial]

17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I'm all for the scenario you laid out - gifting Dany, Aegon and Viserys with eggs (and seeing who's hatches first) might very well have been in Illyrio's plans. Might as well maximise the chances of succeeding in an endeavour that many others have failed to do. 

If we go by this, I assume Viserys would have displayed to much arrogance for a shrewd businessman like Mopatis to gift him an egg of his own, although I guess he could have attempted to claim one of his sister's, anyway.

This leaves Aegon. While we have not seen the perfect prince with an egg of his own, their is still a strong chance he already has one/several. Illyrio could also make a gift of a few eggs upon Aegon's coronation, or some other big event.

Young Griff might have had eggs stashed in his cabin on the Shy Maid all along - although to be fair, such a risk seems a bit too much for the likes of Illyrio and Varys.

Perhaps in the chest sent at the same time a Tyrion? I still suspect he had one when he was living at the Manse, but that doesn't rule out them giving it back now that he's older and Dany has hatched hers.

17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I like that term Targaryen Insiders - makes me think of how much TPTWP fable differs from that kooky Azor Ahai tale. I wouldn't be surprised if The Prince That Was Promised story is perhaps more focused on dragons.

Tagaryen Insiders over the years would probably include the likes of Aegon V, Maester Aemon and Brynden Rivers - men with Access to old prophecies and multiple works of historical and mythological literature. If Varys and Illyrio do have a few drops of dragon blood, they might have access to the same documents and scrolls as their previously mentioned ancestors. Even if they have no relation to the Targaryens, researching the likes of Aegon V couldn't hurt - they are backing a "Dragon", why not research as much as one can about the people who actually had fire breathing companions, as well as those who tried to bring them back?

As far as what we know about Varys and his knowledge of magic, he has that famous story about "getting cut" - in my estimations, the Varys we know (or think we know) is an incredibly studious plotter, and would want to find out as much as he could about this power which had bested him, lest someone tries something similar in his later life. I guess such a sentiment would extend to many other forms of magic, including dragons.

I really like that idea about Varys and Illyrio refering to Jon whilst talking beneath the Red Keep  I guess the question would then be who exactly were they referring to when they said "he has the boy and the book"? Aemon? Bloodraven?

 

Aemon had Jon and the Jade compendium. Mormont also seemed to know who Jon was, given the Targ history dump that came with the sword, and Tyrion brought a book about dragon lore to the wall. (Just throwing random ideas out based on your question)

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Azarial

I like the idea of the Jade Compendium being the book that Varys and Illyrio were referring to. Let's not forget that Aemon does leave a copy of the tome for Jon, with a specific passage marked as important - did we ever get another mention of this?

Mormont or Aemon would probably be the most likely candidates for a Wall based "He".

[Azarial]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Azarial

I like the idea of the Jade Compendium being the book that Varys and Illyrio were referring to. Let's not forget that Aemon does leave a copy of the tome for Jon, with a specific passage marked as important - did we ever get another mention of this?

Mormont or Aemon would probably be the most likely candidates for a Wall based "He".

I found three mentions of it, well four if you count the fact that one of these was shown in Sam and Jon's POV.

 

He had to get down on his knees to gather up the books he'd dropped. I should not have brought so many, he told himself as he brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks. Sam cursed himself for a clumsy oaf as he smoothed the pages down and brushed them off.

 

Lord Snow," Maester Aemon called out, "I left a book for you in my chambers. The Jade Compendium. It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest. I've told Clydas to mark it for you."

"I'll be sure to read it."

 

"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"

[Wolf's Bane]

Aemon had access to the Jade Compendium and yet it never occurred to him that Snowflake could be Azor Ahai.  Because Jon is not Azor Ahai.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Samwell, if he reads those books, could end up in Slaver's Bay and prove himself useful to Daenerys.  

[Wolf's Bane]

On 6/4/2018 at 6:41 PM, LindsayLohan said:

A simple way to view the eggs is their value.  Viserys attempts to steal them, knowing he could hire a mercenary company to invade Westeros through their sale.  Ilyrio is notably rich, and Viserys is a king (even as a Beggar King).  Ilyrio is presenting gifts to the sister of King Viserys, marrying the greatest living Khal.  Ilyrio's gift must not simply be lavish and/or expensive (like Mace Tyrell's stupid chalice for Joffrey), but also rare and incomparable.  Ilyrio is attempting to be a king-maker, it takes more than just gold to secure a throne (ask Tywin).

Take Jorah's gift at the same wedding:  Books with Westeros history and lore.  They are not of insignificant value, nor lavishly expensive.  They are a tasteful gift, and surprisingly so from an exiled Westerosi knight.  The gift tells a good deal about Jorah, the exiled lord: He's not just a brute, he's educated, mindful of history, and culturally  aware. 

The eggs were an appropriate (as a giver) and expected (to please Viserys) sort of gift to give the young Khaleesi.  Ilyrio knows what he's doing.

He knew what he was doing or he had good manners?  It doesn't matter.  Daenerys brought dragons back from extinction and that is all that matters.  Her Targaryen lineage could never be doubted by anyone and that secured her right to inherit Westeros from Viserys, who inherited it from Aerys.  The dragons are the decisive factor that makes her claim superior to any other.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Aemon had access to the Jade Compendium and yet it never occurred to him that Snowflake could be Azor Ahai.  Because Jon is not Azor Ahai.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Samwell, if he reads those books, could end up in Slaver's Bay and prove himself useful to Daenerys.  

He had no reason to suspect that Jon is a prince. 

[Targaryen Restoration]

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Aemon had access to the Jade Compendium and yet it never occurred to him that Snowflake could be Azor Ahai.  Because Jon is not Azor Ahai.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Samwell, if he reads those books, could end up in Slaver's Bay and prove himself useful to Daenerys.  

This.  Samwell doesn't get accepted at the citadel and he goes to Slaver's Bay instead to serve Dany.

[Van Gogh]

21 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Aemon had access to the Jade Compendium and yet it never occurred to him that Snowflake could be Azor Ahai.  Because Jon is not Azor Ahai.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Samwell, if he reads those books, could end up in Slaver's Bay and prove himself useful to Daenerys.  

You're right.  

[Annalee]

It's not a plot hole at all.  Illyrio was acting as the Targaryen's adoptive father.  He was basically Dany's guardian.  He needed to give her gifts worthy of her status as the loveliest woman in the world and the only Targaryen princess.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think the eggs were the petrified eggs Aerys II found on Dragonstone. Varys could have stolen them during the confusion of the sack. And I think he gave them to Dany fully expecting Viserys to die whilst with the Dothraki assuming his enormous generosity would buy her loyalty to him once her brother dies and he reveals fAegon to her. With Dany's support fAegon's path is smoothed into Westeros. Her credentials are unquestionable, and with Jon Connington alongside he would seem to be what he says he is. Dany's marriage buys a Dothraki army too to assist in taking Westeros but when Dany's husband dies Illyrio expects that she will die too. But of course she does not and she hatches the eggs. At which point his plans change and he see's her as a bride for fAegon instead of just a supportive relative.  

[Barbrey Dustin]

Magister Illyrio is a man with many mistresses.  He was playing a lot of hands hoping one of them would play out. That's what an investor does when they speculate.  He took a chance when he gave Princess Daenerys the eggs and it paid off.  Just not the way he hoped because she didn't follow his script and instead chose to use her powers to help the slaves.

[ChuckPunch]

She was meant to sell them to buy an army for her brother, I would assume. She sort-of does this when she initially buys the Unsullied, however unfortunately for the Masters that didn't work out so well for them due to the dragons being hatched and loyal.