Westworld VIII: Forging On

[Spring Bass]

Given that the test in the post-credit scenes was real, maybe it's some of the hosts trying to recreate accurate humans from their stored memories with humanity long extinct. Like a fleshy version of Dolores' 11,000+ versions of Bernard to get the one she liked. 

9 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

This was definitely the most interesting take in the "library."  Dunno how I feel about the suggestion human behavior can be simplified in comparison. 

Not sure I agree with it either, although it's an interesting take. It fits with a long-running idea about AI - namely, that AI could rapidly surpass humanity because it could re-program its own code for self-improvement, whereas humans are stuck as we are without difficult genetic engineering or uploading simulations of us into computers. 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Summer Bass said:

It fits with a long-running idea about AI - namely, that AI could rapidly surpass humanity because it could re-program its own code for self-improvement, whereas humans are stuck as we are without difficult genetic engineering or uploading simulations of us into computers. 

Yup.  Totally agreed.  Looks like that's directly where they're going to.  Which is another reason why this finale was a big win for me - even if I wasn't a big fan of the season as a whole.

[Spring Bass]

The Wrap had a good interview as well. Joy all but straight-up says that Stubbs was a host - Ford kept an additional hidden host in QA. 

EDIT: I can't believe it took me that long to realize that Lisa Joy might be making a Culture reference calling the AI paradise digital world the "Sublime". 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, Summer Bass said:

The Wrap had a good interview as well. Joy all but straight-up says that Stubbs was a host - Ford kept an additional hidden host in QA. 

The bit about MiB is interesting.

Spoiler

So at what point in the season does his story go from the current timeline to Far-Future Host MiB? After he starts digging in his arm? After the elevator doors close? Does he make it to the Forge in the current timeline or does he get collected after he kills his daughter? Does he make it to the Forge and gets collected later?  

My brain is hurting.

[DMC]

25 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

So at what point in the season does his story go from the current timeline to Far-Future Host MiB? After he starts digging in his arm? After the elevator doors close? Does he make it to the Forge in the current timeline or does he get collected after he kills his daughter? Does he make it to the Forge and gets collected later?  

I don't think this needs to be in spoiler tags in this thread.  Or, if it does, we've already ruined a whole shitload.  Anywho, I think what happens to William once he goes down that elevator is one of the few mysteries they got left.  Let alone the fact he's (relatively) fine when "Halelores," or whatever Joy wants to call her, takes her boat trip to the great beyond.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 minute ago, DMBouazizi said:

I don't think this needs to be in spoiler tags in this thread.  Or, if it does, we've already ruined a whole shitload.  Anywho, I think what happens to William once he goes down that elevator is one of the few mysteries they got left.  Let alone the fact he's (relatively) fine when "Halelores," or whatever Joy wants to call her, takes her boat trip to the great beyond.

That's how confused I am.  By all the confusion.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

That's how confused I am.  By all the confusion.

Fair enough - @Casablanca Birdie - you need to put spoilers on the topic.  But anyway, wouldn't worry about it in the meantime dude.

[Spring Bass]

In addition to what's already been posted, there's also Nolan's interview with EW that mostly retreads some of the same ground. It does have a pretty good bit at the ending where he talks about the cynical tone in the series towards humanity. 

47 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

So at what point in the season does his story go from the current timeline to Far-Future Host MiB? After he starts digging in his arm? After the elevator doors close? Does he make it to the Forge in the current timeline or does he get collected after he kills his daughter? Does he make it to the Forge and gets collected later?  

Judging by the episode and interviews, it sounds like the real William never went down the elevator - he was recovered by security outside of the entrance, and brought to the extraction point. The William that went down the elevator is . . . something, being tested over and over again for fidelity by a host in the form of Emily in the "far, far future". It's not a simulation like the Cradle or Forge, either, since host-Emily outright says it's real, it's in a run-down shape, and it's apparently not in the aspect ratio that all the Forge and Cradle scenes have used. Still, apparently everything that happened with him this season is something that future-William went through as well as the original. 

I'm leaning towards either "humanity went extinct and the world was wrecked, and now the hosts are trying to recreate a biological replication of a critical human" or "William somehow set this in motion himself, seeing as how he tells host-Emily that he wanted to see if he 'had a choice'". 

 

 

[A True Kaniggit]

Poor Elsie. Murdered by a Halebeast. 

Maybe Bernard will make a new Elsie to help him stop DoloresX2. They did point out Delos collected information on the employees as well as the guests. 

[DMC]

55 minutes ago, Summer Bass said:

In addition to what's already been posted, there's also Nolan's interview with EW that mostly retreads some of the same ground.

Agreed it's pretty damn cynical in general.  What I found interesting is this:

Quote

The second season structure is a fairly familiar one, it’s a flashforward/flashback structure, not that different than classic film noir like DOA or Double Indemnity or any movie you point to where you have an amnesiac protagonist who can’t quite remember what happened. 

Double Indemnity is a classic noir in which the hero ends up getting the chair.  Don't care to cite, but there were debates upon even showing that ending.  This should inform where Jonah and Joy want to go.  It's not a good place.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

S2E10

Mixed bag of feelings here, but for the most part it's frustration. I feel like Nolan&Joy are aiming to discuss some great philosophical questions--What makes us "human"? Is there a soul? What is reality? Is immortality achievable, and if so, do we lose out humanity in attaining it? However, the answers presented and even the execution of the questions themselves are uneven, to put it kindly.

I know from interviews Nolan & Joy did back for S1 that they were interested in a show where humans weren't the protagonists--but it feels like they spent most of S2 trying to get me to not root for Dolores. And they did a pretty good job of it because I was hoping through the whole third act that she was really gone. I'm just not really all about rooting for a character that wants to destroy humanity. And that speech she gave "Bernardold" at the end was just further examples of the kind of plot hole filled writing S2 has been about. 

1 hour ago, Summer Bass said:

There's a pretty interesting bit about the post-credit scene in one of the making-of videos now released on youtube. 

Okay, that video helped A LOT with explaining some things I was questioning about that post-credit ending. I wonder why it wasn't included in the "extras" section on HBO GO, though? All I saw was a one minute bts on the director of the episode. :/

1 hour ago, DMBouazizi said:

This was definitely the most interesting take in the "library."  Dunno how I feel about the suggestion human behavior can be simplified in comparison. . .

I know how I feel--like it's dime store philosophizing. A human being is 10k lines of code? Meh. The WestWorld writers must be a bunch of misanthropes.

Did anyone else think the code in the books looked like the sheet music for those automated pianos, or was it just me?

[Corvinus85]

So can season 3 even be called Westworld?

[dbunting]

Still trying to understand all that happened or didn't happen or will happen in the future. I went to bed as the credits rolled so imagine my surprise reading here that there was a post credit scene, dammmmmmmmit.

Nice to see that William/MiB was a host in the show, at least some of him was, sort of.

And Delores did change her mind, she originally was saying that the sublime was just another fake world created by Ford and she planned to destroy it too, but then changed after Bernard brought her back and she even set Teddy free there.

Was it just me or did they mess up some continuity this episode? Delores gets shot like 5 times by William but then the wounds are gone when she is at the cradle and "in" it. They seem to reappear later before Bernard kills her.

So what data was beamed out to the satellites? We see Hale 2.0 carry out 4 orbs, I assumed that was 4 hosts minds, (her team next season?) so what was beamed out? Was it the rest of the data that on humans that wasn't deleted that Delores can use on the outside world to get her revenge?

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, dbunting said:

So what data was beamed out to the satellites? We see Hale 2.0 carry out 4 orbs, I assumed that was 4 hosts minds, (her team next season?) so what was beamed out? Was it the rest of the data that on humans that wasn't deleted that Delores can use on the outside world to get her revenge?

I think it was the "Sublime", the paradise world for the hosts that got beamed out. Bernard orchestrated so that that data, and not the guest data was to be beamed out, and thus save the hosts. Dolores then changed the coordinates to insure the humans couldn't get to it, the questions is where that is. 

[Cas Stark]

After sleeping on it, I am pretty much where I have been all season...much about the show is fantastic, but it has ended up, less than the sum of its parts.  I wasn't too crazy about "Ford" being in Bernard's imagination all season, loved AI Logan and his riffing on humanity, not sure about the Charlotte Hale/Dolores stuff or how that is going to resolve going forward, surely we wont' see Tess T. playing 'Dolores' next season in the real world and ERW playing virtual Dolores in the VR simulation.  

[Corvinus85]

Dolores got her body back. A different host was in Hale's body. 

Also, I'm hoping Maeve was one of the cores Dolores/Hale had in her bag. 

[Relic]

24 minutes ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

 

Also, I'm hoping Maeve was one of the cores brain balls Dolores/Hale had in her bag. 

fixed 

[HexMachina]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

After sleeping on it, I am pretty much where I have been all season...much about the show is fantastic, but it has ended up, less than the sum of its parts.  I wasn't too crazy about "Ford" being in Bernard's imagination all season, loved AI Logan and his riffing on humanity, not sure about the Charlotte Hale/Dolores stuff or how that is going to resolve going forward, surely we wont' see Tess T. playing 'Dolores' next season in the real world and ERW playing virtual Dolores in the VR simulation.  

Ford wasn’t always imagination, only his scenes with Bernard this episode. Bernard didn’t ‘purge’ him until the scene last episode with Elsie

16 minutes ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

Dolores got her body back. A different host was in Hale's body. 

Also, I'm hoping Maeve was one of the cores Dolores/Hale had in her bag. 

I think Maeve is almost certainly not one of those cores, but will come back into it via Felix and Sylvester. Why else include that scene? (“Think you two genius’ can handle it? *cut to Maeve* *nods*)

i Really enjoyed the finale. Going to rewatch before I add anything to the discussion but couple of highlights;

Sizemore delivering his speech and going down like a champ. Not entirely sure he had to die for Maeve and co, to escape but whatever it was a great moment.

The shot of Clementine, horsewoman of the apocalypse, riding through the hosts and leaving death and destruction in her wake. Brutal but brilliant shot.

Maeve (and her fellows) sacrificing themselves to let the other hosts escape.

Charlotte Hale gunning down Elsie. I mean I loved Elsie but that scene played out so well.

Stubbs’ word games with Halores where he all but confesses he is a host. Great scene. And, as a commentary, makes sense that there would be a host on the security placed by Ford. If you truly wanted someone to look after you’re children, makes sense that at least part of the security would be hosts

[Relic]

32 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 I wasn't too crazy about "Ford" being in Bernard's imagination all season

He wasn't imaginary until Bernard deleted him in episode 9.

[Relic]

58 minutes ago, dbunting said:

 

Was it just me or did they mess up some continuity this episode? Delores gets shot like 5 times by William but then the wounds are gone when she is at the cradle and "in" it. They seem to reappear later before Bernard kills her.

 

Isn't William actually in a different timeline by that point?