Football: 3rd Season Meltdown

[Raja]

*looks at Mina Raiola's twitter feed* 

*Grabs popcorn* 

Mourinho implosion soon, please. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

And let's face it, the only things Pogba is better at than Scholes are haircuts and reaching the top shelf in supermarkets, as far as United is concerned he's barely fit to polish Scholes's boots.

Well, Pogba's also better at winning World Cups, obviously. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just let me have some fun once in a while, will you.

Anyway, Pogba has won more World Cups than Scholes, so he is objectively better at it. Yes, it's a team achievement, but so are basically all of Scholes'es United titles. And it's not like the English teams of 1998-2002 were without talent (exception in goal), but they won nothing.

As for Scholes and Pogba and United in general. Scholes is a United homegrown talent, who's spent his entire playing career at the club, while Pogba (the supposed face of the club now) apparently wants to get the hell out of Dodge and lacks Scholes'es level of commitment to the club. So you can see how Scholes might feel aggrieved by that. Whether Pogba is leadership material or not is not for me to judge, but it's probably difficult to lead a group, when you're on your way out of the door. On the other hand, that begs the question, why would you appoint a player in that situation as your captain?

[Consigliere]

3 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

On the other hand, that begs the question, why would you appoint a player in that situation as your captain?

It was a desperation move by Mourinho. I think he has come to realise that the board value Pogba more than him. I think the change in the board's perception of Mourinho came after that embarrassing and frankly disrespectful rant after the defeat to Sevilla. 

[Consigliere]

I don't think Pogba sees out his contract either. Raiola is going to give us whole heaps of shit when the time comes to renew Pogba's contract. If we can get Milinkovic-Savic then I'm not opposed to giving Pogba his move at the end of this season - the circus is just not worth it. I doubt Woodward would see it that way though unless he is relieved of his responsibilities on the football side of things and a Sporting Director is appointed - there have been reports that we are looking at candidates.

It's also an opportunity to start cutting ties with Raiola as well. With Zlatan and Mkhi gone, that leaves Pogba, Lukaku and Romero as his clients. Romero is the backup keeper who will likely be replaced by Joel Pereira anyway which would just leave Lukaku if we sell Pogba.

Sir Alex and Florentino Perez have both been very critical of the way Raiola conducts business. I don't think Perez has ever signed a Raiola client either. An agent like Jorge Mendes is far better to work with. By all accounts, he makes an effort at cultivating good working relationships with the Chairman, President, CEO, Sporting Director and manager of clubs whereas Raiola sees clubs as the enemy. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Well, Raiola has a earned a certain reputation, and it is known how he goes about his business. I thought we touched on that back when United signed Mkhitaryan? I am too lazy to skim thru old threads anyway. But the bottom line is, clubs who sign his player know who they're dealing with. What the player does, that is not on him. After Mkhitaryan left the Dortmund officials also said something along the lines, they'd work with Radiola again, but that Mkhitaryan is less welcome at the club. If Pogba was happy at United Radiola wouldn't go to those lenghts (unless it's contract extension time) - I mean Zlatan or Lukaku didn't provide you with that much drama. Personally, I'd probably try to stay clear of Raiola's players, however if I were a DoF at a top club, then things would look somewhat different. I mean, from the United players, I'd probably pick up Lukaku and Pogba, if I had the chance, Raiola or not. Afterall the club comes first, if that means Raiola, then it can't be helped. 

[Iskaral Pust]

I watched the full Liverpool game last night.  I can see why Palace went unbeaten for so long, but also why they struggle to score without Zaha.  They have a very disciplined 4-4-2 defensive shell, with no more than ten yards between each line, anchored on their own 18 yard line and ready to compress like an accordion.  Sakho and Tomkins are a very good CB pair and they have plenty of pace at FB.  Two battling CM/DMs protect the defense further and they have more pace out wide for counters.  Townsend is perhaps the weakest defender across their MF but makes up for it with a goal threat and he has the excellent Wan-Bissaka behind him (and TAA should be concerned for his England spot based on their relative showing last night).  Overall very tough to break down and even as a home team they are willing to sit in their low block for long periods.  Zaha’s dribbling gives them an effective outball but if they cannot get it to his feet then the opposition are probably coming straight back at them.  I can’t tell if Benteke is ineffective as a target man or if VVD just made it so. 

For Liverpool, that was a very good example of game management.  One long-range Townsend shot off the bar, after a brainfart by Keita, was the only moment of danger.  Becker, VVD and Gomez were comfortably in command of everything else.  If anything the Liverpool CB pair was better than Tomkins and Sakho despite less opportunity to show it.  The forwards weren’t quite sharp enough with chances — and Hennessy did quite well — and the midfield got slightly bogged down at times when they should have been breaking lines, but with such comfort in possession and occasional defending, there were more than enough chances to eventually take one or two.  Henderson did well when he came on and made our MF possession sharper.  TAA’s crossing improved from terrible last game but still needs to get back to last year’s level.  Mane was the best of our front three, but he and Salah both missed presentable chances.  

The Palace crowd is very vocal and were baying at the referee for large portions of the game (long before the penalty), monumentally aggrieved at what were perfectly accurate decisions.  Sometimes that can intimidate the referee and spur the players on, sometimes it spurs them into rash/revenge tackles because they feel aggrieved too. 

It was a penalty.  Sakho had arms on him as be backed in, took a first nibble at his ankle as he turned, took a second decisive nibble as he nudged the ball to shoot and made clear contact with his foot and caused the stumble.   I can understand why Palace are frustrated after battling hard but all of their protestations look like rank denial of video evidence.  

The red card is tricky.  He definitely fouled Salah, in fact he fouled him twice to be sure, and did so from well behind and just outside the box to make sure it wouldn’t be another penalty.  He was nowhere near going for the ball, just tripping the back leg each time.  But had Salah lost control of the scoring opportunity?  It looked like it, although that loss of control happened after the first trip that knocked him off balance but didn’t make him fall.  So clearly W-B got what he wanted: he tripped from behind to make the player fall or lose control (in this case tripped once to make him lose control and then more emphatically tripped a second time to make him fall) and prevent him from shooting.  Maybe he could have got away with only a yellow card if the ref didn’t see  the first trip and only counted the second, but that seems optimistic because his impact on Salah is obvious and unmistakable. 

[Dolorous Gabe]

Regarding the Palace fans pressuring Oliver, that all started when he didn't judge that Milner challenge a foul and a yellow card only to do so to a near-identical one by one of their own players. I can see why that annoyed them and I can see how that would have made them suspicious of every decision Oliver made after that, even though he was mostly spot on thereafter.

[Iskaral Pust]

20 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Regarding the Palace fans pressuring Oliver, that all started when he didn't judge that Milner challenge a foul and a yellow card only to do so to a near-identical one by one of their own players. I can see why that annoyed them and I can see how that would have made them suspicious of every decision Oliver made after that, even though he was mostly spot on thereafter.

I remember that moment.  NBC Sports showed a replay that didn’t look like a foul, but they didn’t show it from multiple angles.  Zaha fronted up to Milner during open play (there was weird friction there), then pushed him off and tried a back heel pass to an overlapping teammate, but Milner anticipated the pass and dived to intercept/clear.  It looked like Milner made clean contact with the ball while upending Zaha at the same time.  But the fans definitely got riled and then hooted and bayed at every single tackle for the remainder of the half, culminating in the penalty.  

There was some similar baying later just after half time when Gomez made a 100% clean tackle on Schlupp (?) in the box.  It was very obviously a clean tackle but the home fans went berserk.  I know fans at a game cannot see these incidents like television viewers, but the Palace crowd seemed to be frothing throughout.  

Perhaps that’s just their way to create a hostile atmosphere, although sometimes evening games have more alcohol fueling the crowd. 

I was proud of how the Liverpool fans outsang the home fans throughout the second half.  Allez, Allez, Allez was ringing out for ten minutes before Fields Of Anfield Road took over. 

[MercenaryChef]

so I have seen the Rooney in the flesh twice now.  once the crew and i drove the 12 hours to montreal for a 1-1 draw. the legend looked solid. he really does make dcu a better side.

Sunday was home in the new stadium. he looked great, created a goal,  should have had another. he led the team in a celebration of our supporters end. though he still looks like a potato; that potato smiled ear to ear as we packed the end banging our drums and singing to the victors. 

[Raja]

17 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

 

And let's face it, the only things Pogba is better at than Scholes are haircuts and reaching the top shelf in supermarkets, as far as United is concerned he's barely fit to polish Scholes's boots.

I *kinda* understand reservations with Pogba, but he would easily walk into the first 11 of the rest of the PL. There's no way Mourinho outlasts Pogba. As polish said, ZZ would be quite something. Mourinho is not getting the best out of this squad of players, it's really as simple as that.  

[Iskaral Pust]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

I *kinda* understand reservations with Pogba, but he would easily walk into the first 11 of the rest of the PL. There's no way Mourinho outlasts Pogba. As polish said, ZZ would be quite something. Mourinho is not getting the best out of this squad of players, it's really as simple as that.  

Pogba looked better at Juventus (in my limited viewings) than his average over two seasons at United.  Which made me think it was the luxury of a dominant team and MF in a slow-paced league that made it easy for him.  But then he did well again in the WC, albeit in a very solid team, showing more discipline and game intelligence than he ever does at United.  And that wasn’t down to special coaching or tactics from Deschamp.

He’ll probably look better at PSG or Barca than anywhere in the PL but I’m starting to think that he is better than he has shown at United (even if Matic is a gift of a co-MF for him) and could succeed in other PL teams IF he plays the role the team needs and not just like a David Luiz in MF. 

I doubt Utd will sell Pogba so the next manager will need to build around him.  Which means you need a DoF now whose style/philosophy fits Pogba too. 

Did you all notice that the announcement about United getting a DoF now came only a week or so after my post in this thread saying that’s what they need to do now to get ahead of Mourinho’s exit?  Ed Woodward is lurking in our threads. Must be.

[Mark Antony]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

but he would easily walk into the first 11 of the rest of the PL. 

De Bruyne and David Silva are both better so not City imo. 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

De Bruyne and David Silva are both better so not City imo. 

It's debatable, but the former doesn't even always play in the midfield for city. Maybe they're the one team he doesn't, but my point was that it's still pretty close. 
 

3 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

, showing more discipline and game intelligence than he ever does at United.  And that wasn’t down to special coaching or tactics from Deschamp.

He’ll probably look better at PSG or Barca than anywhere in the PL but I’m starting to think that he is better than he has shown at United (even if Matic is a gift of a co-MF for him) and could succeed in other PL teams IF he plays the role the team needs and not just like a David Luiz in MF. 

 

The united fans can correct me here, but he's shown more than enough at Untied last season to suggest that he can be the main man in their midfield. Coaxing those performances out of him doesn't seem to be something Mourinho can do, I'm kinda astounded to see people question if he has the quality. I guess I'm just a big fan of Pogba, he's everything you want in a midfielder. 

[Jeor]

Re continental and international football, Pogba is always bound to look better due to the slower pace of the game. So I think there is a bit of a built-in disadvantage when comparing it to United (that isn't just down to Mourinho). Still, he could be a heck of an effective PL midfielder some of it is still definitely Mourinho's fault, especially considering it's been obvious for a while now the team ought to be built around him.

[Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Raja said:

It's debatable, but the former doesn't even always play in the midfield for city. Maybe they're the one team he doesn't, but my point was that it's still pretty close. 
 

The united fans can correct me here, but he's shown more than enough at Untied last season to suggest that he can be the main man in their midfield. Coaxing those performances out of him doesn't seem to be something Mourinho can do, I'm kinda astounded to see people question if he has the quality. I guess I'm just a big fan of Pogba, he's everything you want in a midfielder. 

Yeah, he has. He walks into any midfield in the league bar City (KdB and D.Silva are a magnificent pairing but Pogba would definitely be ahead of B. Silva and Gundogan). Mourinho certainly has failed to get the most out of the players at his disposal. It would be one thing if it were just Pogba struggling with consistency but it's nearly every single player that is not performing to the standards they were at previous clubs or national teams. Even Lukaku whose general play has improved, had a better scoring rate at Everton. 

 

Quote

I'm kinda astounded to see people question if he has the quality.

You and me both. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

10 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

De Bruyne and David Silva are both better so not City imo. 

KdB is a different kind of beast, his qualities are a bit further up the pitch. So he'd rather compete with Gündogan over the spots who play a bit behind him. But yes, the City midfield is stacked.

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Pogba would definitely be ahead of B. Silva and Gundogan).

Probably. Depends on what Guardiola wants. Gündogan on his game plays a lot of those low profile passes, which are important, just not spectacular, and those tend to get overlooked. That's not exactly Pogba's game, either. Overall, I think he has the higher quality compared to Gündogan, but I wouldn't expect him to walk right into that team.

[Mark Antony]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

KdB is a different kind of beast, his qualities are a bit further up the pitch. So he'd rather compete with Gündogan over the spots who play a bit behind him. But yes, the City midfield is stacked..

For me City’s strongest midfield three is Fernadinho behind Silva and De Bruyne. Pogba would be competing with KDB and Silva not Gundogan for a spot in that midfield and he wouldn’t get in over those two. And I think Pogba is best furthest up the pitch in a midfield three as well. 

[Raja]

This has nothing to do with anything but watching Vincent Kompany describe who Nelson Mandela is to a bunch of 8 year olds is the funniest thing I've ever seen. 

[Calibandar]

On 8/21/2018 at 10:16 AM, Soylent Brown said:



And let's face it, the only things Pogba is better at than Scholes are haircuts and reaching the top shelf in supermarkets, as far as United is concerned he's barely fit to polish Scholes's boots.

Hahaha. Love it.

The main thing is to get Mourinho out. It will not get better before that is done. He needs to be rooted out and then we can start mending.