Why no stark spies

[History]

I find it hard to accept that eddard stark had no spy system to keep an eye of his nobles and specialy the boltons since most lord paramaunts would have some kind of system to keep an eye on his vassals specially ones they have a history aka boltons or in the line of sucesion like karstarks or royce.

[hodorisfaclessman]

9 minutes ago, History said:

I find it hard to accept that eddard stark had no spy system to keep an eye of his nobles and specialy the boltons since most lord paramaunts would have some kind of system to keep an eye on his vassals specially ones they have a history aka boltons or in the line of sucesion like karstarks or royce.

Most things will be spread by word of mouth rather  than spy networks 

If a bannerman is commiting crimes word will leak  hence why roose is so firm thatbramsay should keep his activities on the down low (note he never says stop)

[John Suburbs]

Because Ned was never meant to be lord, so he likely would not have had any kind of training at this sort of stuff. Also, the north is not as tightly bound as the south, so there isn't reason to expect there to be as much skullduggery in Winterfell as in, say, Highgarden or Sunspear.

But I believe Martin has said that it was an error on his part that there weren't more vassal children in Winterfell, either as pages or serving maids. If there were, there probably would have been a lot more intrigue between the Starks and their bannermen, and between rival bannermen as well.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But I believe Martin has said that it was an error on his part that there weren't more vassal children in Winterfell, either as pages or serving maids. If there were, there probably would have been a lot more intrigue between the Starks and their bannermen, and between rival bannermen as well.

This has always annoyed me a little. He is so detailed and thorough in some aspects of castle/feudal life, like paragraph after paragraph about food and heraldry, but at the same time manages to boil down the incredibly convoluted social structure from about nine levels in the commons and seven levels in the nobility/royalty to two in the commons and three in the nobility/royalty.

[Big P]

Planting your people into the house of another lord is not easy.  The servants are known.  Their families have been with their lord for many generations.  A stranger coming into service will stand out.  A newbie servant with a long face will stick out more than his chin in the Dreadfort.  It won't be long before he becomes Ramsay's arrow catcher.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

This is simply another manifestation of the issue I have raised previously, broadly titled “The Amazing Maester Luwin”.

This deals with the supernatural phenomenon that is Maester Luwin of Winterfell, who is simultaneously the Minister of Finance and Taxation, Foreign Affairs, Science and Technology, Infrastructure, Communications, Health, Trade and Industry, Law, and yes, Intelligence gathering too, and a few other departments I probably missed out.

In fact, not only is he the minister of all of these affairs, the REALLY extraordinairy part is that he also appears to be the entire beaurocracy and staff of all of these portfolios too. For a kingdom covering around a million square miles (about 20 times the size of England) and with millions of citizens.

And all of the above appears to be done on his spare time, with his main daytime job being personal tutor to the 6 Stark children, inbetween writing letters and keeping a few hundred Ravens fed and in proper condition.

Fascinating man, this Maester Luwin. His powers of temporal transendence and resultant multi tasking make any magical figures of legend such as Azor Ahai pale in comparison.

[MostlyMoody]

11 hours ago, Trefayne said:

This has always annoyed me a little. He is so detailed and thorough in some aspects of castle/feudal life, like paragraph after paragraph about food and heraldry, but at the same time manages to boil down the incredibly convoluted social structure from about nine levels in the commons and seven levels in the nobility/royalty to two in the commons and three in the nobility/royalty.

If this were the case it would take him 30 years between the books. Be happy its simplified as it is.

[direpupy]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This is simply another manifestation of the issue I have raised previously, broadly titled “The Amazing Maester Luwin”.

This deals with the supernatural phenomenon that is Maester Luwin of Winterfell, who is simultaneously the Minister of Finance and Taxation, Foreign Affairs, Science and Technology, Infrastructure, Communications, Health, Trade and Industry, Law, and yes, Intelligence gathering too, and a few other departments I probably missed out.

In fact, not only is he the minister of all of these affairs, the REALLY extraordinairy part is that he also appears to be the entire beaurocracy and staff of all of these portfolios too. For a kingdom covering around a million square miles (about 20 times the size of England) and with millions of citizens.

And all of the above appears to be done on his spare time, with his main daytime job being personal tutor to the 6 Stark children, inbetween writing letters and keeping a few hundred Ravens fed and in proper condition.

Fascinating man, this Maester Luwin. His powers of temporal transendence and resultant multi tasking make any magical figures of legend such as Azor Ahai pale in comparison.

I agree, it would have been more believe-worthy if maester Luwin had been they overseer of the Stark bureaucracy with him being assisted by a number of scribes.

Similarly Vayon Poole the steward should have had some under-stewards to help him run the household.

And this is not just an issue of the house Stark but of every house we see, although GRRM has been trying to create more layers as for example when he showed that the Red Keep has under-gaolers.

[rotting sea cow]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This is simply another manifestation of the issue I have raised previously, broadly titled “The Amazing Maester Luwin”.

This deals with the supernatural phenomenon that is Maester Luwin of Winterfell, who is simultaneously the Minister of Finance and Taxation, Foreign Affairs, Science and Technology, Infrastructure, Communications, Health, Trade and Industry, Law, and yes, Intelligence gathering too, and a few other departments I probably missed out.

In fact, not only is he the minister of all of these affairs, the REALLY extraordinairy part is that he also appears to be the entire beaurocracy and staff of all of these portfolios too. For a kingdom covering around a million square miles (about 20 times the size of England) and with millions of citizens.

And all of the above appears to be done on his spare time, with his main daytime job being personal tutor to the 6 Stark children, inbetween writing letters and keeping a few hundred Ravens fed and in proper condition.

Fascinating man, this Maester Luwin. His powers of temporal transendence and resultant multi tasking make any magical figures of legend such as Azor Ahai pale in comparison.

LOL

and yet he fails miserably at the first crisis whilst he is in charge...

Nah, simple explanation is GRRM is more interested in certain aspects of the history than others and forgets many details. It would just add clutter to an already complex story.

 

[Ran]

I think there's no reason to suppose there are not under-stewards and scribes and so on at Winterfell.

What Luwin could be read to be, given the evidence, is not literally the minister of things, but rather a liaison between the bureaucratic apparatus of the North and the Starks. High level reports of significant matters end up crossing his desk and he helps the Starks out in making their executive decisions, much as presidential aides have been known to do this for American presidents. I'm sure PM's in the UK and elsewhere also have high-level councillors who are involved in helping with a broad portfolio without necessarily being in charge of these subjects.

[direpupy]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think there's no reason to suppose there are not under-stewards and scribes and so on at Winterfell.

What Luwin could be read to be, given the evidence, is not literally the minister of things, but rather a liaison between the bureaucratic apparatus of the North and the Starks. High level reports of significant matters end up crossing his desk and he helps the Starks out in making their executive decisions, much as presidential aides have been known to do this for American presidents. I'm sure PM's in the UK and elsewhere also have high-level councillors who are involved in helping with a broad portfolio without necessarily being in charge of these subjects.

I am sure you are right, but the problem is perception, the way things are described in the books makes it look like he is doing it alone.

What i am missing is a simple one sentence description of a scribe handing maester Luwin something or Vayon Poole mentioning a report by one of his under-stewards. That is all it would take to establish they exist and the readers imagination can take it from there. 

[Jaak]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I believe Martin has said that it was an error on his part that there weren't more vassal children in Winterfell, either as pages or serving maids.

That one might plausibly have been error on Eddard's part rather than George's. Though George confesses to it.

The bigger part is the stewards. In peacetime, Winterfell needs to house 200 soldiers, and unspecified numbers of noncombatant servants and family members.

Yet when Eddard leaves with 50 soldiers, leaving behind 150 soldiers and unspecified number of servants, it is specified how Eddard and Catelyn both neglecting to appoint replacement to departing Vayon Poole creates a deadlock. Vayon's department is not large enough and does not have an obvious second or third in charge.

 

How big would be steward's department for a real life medieval garrison of 200 men?

[BigBoss1]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Because Ned was never meant to be lord, so he likely would not have had any kind of training at this sort of stuff. Also, the north is not as tightly bound as the south, so there isn't reason to expect there to be as much skullduggery in Winterfell as in, say, Highgarden or Sunspear.

But I believe Martin has said that it was an error on his part that there weren't more vassal children in Winterfell, either as pages or serving maids. If there were, there probably would have been a lot more intrigue between the Starks and their bannermen, and between rival bannermen as well.

Saying he didn't have any training is nonsense, he was the spare if the heir died and with the high rate of mortality of Westeros training just the heir is stupid, hell, even a bastard like Jon snow was trained to be lord.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This is simply another manifestation of the issue I have raised previously, broadly titled “The Amazing Maester Luwin”.

This deals with the supernatural phenomenon that is Maester Luwin of Winterfell, who is simultaneously the Minister of Finance and Taxation, Foreign Affairs, Science and Technology, Infrastructure, Communications, Health, Trade and Industry, Law, and yes, Intelligence gathering too, and a few other departments I probably missed out.

In fact, not only is he the minister of all of these affairs, the REALLY extraordinairy part is that he also appears to be the entire beaurocracy and staff of all of these portfolios too. For a kingdom covering around a million square miles (about 20 times the size of England) and with millions of citizens.

And all of the above appears to be done on his spare time, with his main daytime job being personal tutor to the 6 Stark children, inbetween writing letters and keeping a few hundred Ravens fed and in proper condition.

Fascinating man, this Maester Luwin. His powers of temporal transendence and resultant multi tasking make any magical figures of legend such as Azor Ahai pale in comparison.

To be fair, the bureaucracy of most medieval kingdoms in history wasn't exactly that large or well developed. The whole point of feudalism was that each lord handled his own fife, and in turn each knight governed his part of it, and so forth. Ned/Luwin don't have to administer the whole kingdom, the Northern lords do it for them.

We see this when Bran is the Stark in Winterfell. The Starks' job is to intervene when necessary or when asked, not to micromanage the whole North

[direpupy]

35 minutes ago, Jaak said:

That one might plausibly have been error on Eddard's part rather than George's. Though George confesses to it.

The bigger part is the stewards. In peacetime, Winterfell needs to house 200 soldiers, and unspecified numbers of noncombatant servants and family members.

Yet when Eddard leaves with 50 soldiers, leaving behind 150 soldiers and unspecified number of servants, it is specified how Eddard and Catelyn both neglecting to appoint replacement to departing Vayon Poole creates a deadlock. Vayon's department is not large enough and does not have an obvious second or third in charge.

 

How big would be steward's department for a real life medieval garrison of 200 men?

Vayon has nothing to do with the garrison, that is the department of the master-at-arms and the captain of the guard. So he would only deal with the servants, visiting guests and the merchants and smallfolk who supplie directly to Winterfell.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

To directly answer the OP - Ned addresses your question in GOT. I forget the exact quote (no book handy), but when King Robert hands over a report from Jorah via Varys he says "So the slaver has become a spy. I'd rather become a corpse."

Throughout GOT, his disdain for Varys is clear as well.

Ned thinks spying is cowardly and dishonourable. People are obviously free to think that attitude is wrong or naiive, but that's his attitude nonetheless.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

I am sure you are right, but the problem is perception, the way things are described in the books makes it look like he is doing it alone.

What i am missing is a simple one sentence description of a scribe handing maester Luwin something or Vayon Poole mentioning a report by one of his under-stewards. That is all it would take to establish they exist and the readers imagination can take it from there. 

Oh no, you wouldn't want to do that! Just recently I was taken to task for assuming that the heraldic rules in Westeros, something rather well elaborated on, were the same as the ones in our history because it wasn't specifically noted in the text.

That being said, I agree. Never underestimate the power of the throw away line.

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ned thinks spying is cowardly and dishonourable. People are obviously free to think that attitude is wrong or naiive, but that's his attitude nonetheless.

 

I think the Starks are so wedded to 'honour' that they really actually believe that if they need to find out something, they only need ask someone, who will, of course, always tell the truth

[direpupy]

17 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Oh no, you wouldn't want to do that! Just recently I was taken to task for assuming that the heraldic rules in Westeros, something rather well elaborated on, were the same as the ones in our history because it wasn't specifically noted in the text.

That being said, I agree. Never underestimate the power of the throw away line.

Sure there is a danger of imagination running wild, plenty examples of that on this very forum. But in this case i think the risk is small. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

16 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I think the Starks are so wedded to 'honour' that they really actually believe that if they need to find out something, they only need ask someone, who will, of course, always tell the truth

To be fair, I wouldn't go that far. I think Ned knows perfectly well that people will lie and cheat, he just refuses to sink to their level.