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Kandrax

Lady Stoneheart excelent character or bad addition that lessened effect of Red wedding

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2 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

One too many dead coming back to life.  She's the personification of Stark hate against the people who won the war of the five kings.  

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the thread title. She's the one too many, and there are other characters who I would have liked to see come back, but she's taken their spot now. It' a finite thing, this list of undead that I am able to tolerate in this story.

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I don't really know how to feel about her character right now. I feel like I need to see what she does next book to really form an opinion of her. I just appreciate GRRM's philosophy of there being consequences to resurrection, I'd much rather her be how she is now instead of being revived as the same old Catelyn from before the Red Wedding. 

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There are lots of people in the Riverlands who have lost their belongings, families and livelihoods, the peace of the conqueror means nothing to them because they have nothing left but the fight. Stoneheart's is a part of that and the fact that she is a revenant works on so many levels. 

As for the Red Wedding, I think it exacerbates the impact. It was so bad that she is returned from the dead to haunt them as a curse. It is inspired really. 

3 hours ago, Aetta said:

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the thread title. She's the one too many, and there are other characters who I would have liked to see come back, but she's taken their spot now. It' a finite thing, this list of undead that I am able to tolerate in this story.

Are the armies of wights included? 

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LS gives us another viewpoint into the whole resurrection/walking dead thing. So far she's the only PoV character to have died and been revived, so we get to see something of the changes involved.

Apart from her and Beric, we have the wights up North, and the Drowned Men of the Ironborn - those who have been 'drowned' are revived by a form of CPR rather than 'magic', so they are a slightly different case, yet even so they a little disturbed - whereas Patchface, who also seems to have drowned, is a far stranger creature, possibly because he has been revived by 'magical' means.

I think George's general point is to 'let sleeping dogs lie, but dead dogs should be well and truly buried'. There's another echo of this in Braavos where someone says the Sailor's Wife should stop praying for his return because he'll come back as a corpse, and she wouldn't like that (which is why I tend towards the Sailor being Gerion and the Sailor's Wife NOT being Tysha, but that's a different thread, sorry...)

Edited by Rufus Snow

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

LS gives us another viewpoint into the whole resurrection/walking dead thing. So far she's the only PoV character to have died and been revived, so we get to see something of the changes involved.

Apart from her and Beric, we have the wights up North, and the Drowned Men of the Ironborn - those who have been 'drowned' are revived by a form of CPR rather than 'magic', so they are a slightly different case, yet even so they a little disturbed - whereas Patchface, who also seems to have drowned, is a far stranger creature, possibly because he has been revived by 'magical' means.

I think George's general point is to 'let sleeping dogs lie, but dead dogs should be well and truly buried'. There's another echo of this in Braavos where someone says the Sailor's Wife should stop praying for his return because he'll come back as a corpse, and she wouldn't like that (which is why I tend towards the Sailor being Gerion and the Sailor's Wife NOT being Tysha, but that's a different thread, sorry...)

Do we know Stoneheart will be POV though? Not giving any insight of the resurrectees seems to be a great grip - makes is that much darker and scarier. 

On that note I'm wondering if we will get any more Jon POV if he is resurrected? 

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15 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Do we know Stoneheart will be POV though? Not giving any insight of the resurrectees seems to be a great grip - makes is that much darker and scarier. 

On that note I'm wondering if we will get any more Jon POV if he is resurrected? 

Maybe she’ll be the prologue POV.

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16 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Do we know Stoneheart will be POV though?

Catelyn was the PoV character who died.... and we see both Catelyn and LS from other perspectives - that's where we can see the differences, by triangulation. Not suggesting we have a LS PoV at all.

Is Jon dead or just in intensive care? :dunno:

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I think she is a great addition to the RW. The Freys broke all guest rights and murderer hundreds of Northman. At then end of her life Cat went mad because she thought she lost all her children. Now she has returned wanting nothing but vengeance for her family.

It truly shows how destructive war and vengeance is and how it changes the people affected by it. Not only Cat but also the BWB and the rest of the smallfolk. They all want vengeance. They Freys broke all rights by betraying the Starks and these are the consequences. No one has any principles anymore. There are no fair trails, justice and mercy under Lady Stoneheart's rule.  For example ,she hangs all the Freys who betrayed Robb yet she also hangs Brienne, Pod and Hyle- people who have nothing to do with the RW.

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56 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Catelyn was the PoV character who died.... and we see both Catelyn and LS from other perspectives - that's where we can see the differences, by triangulation. Not suggesting we have a LS PoV at all.

Is Jon dead or just in intensive care? :dunno:

Sorry, thought you knew something about Winds that I've missed :D

 

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Sorry, thought you knew something about Winds that I've missed :D

 

No fear, I wouldn't do that to you, I'm one of those who refuses to engage with Winds material until the whole book is published :thumbsup:

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12 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I don't really know how to feel about her character right now. I feel like I need to see what she does next book to really form an opinion of her. I just appreciate GRRM's philosophy of there being consequences to resurrection, I'd much rather her be how she is now instead of being revived as the same old Catelyn from before the Red Wedding. 

The same old Catelyn - no. I'd guess though that she still has a fair amount of intelligence, otherwise she could not lead the BwB. I also think the mania for killing could be removed - her breakdown at Bran's bedside is a precedent for that.

So, still a monster, but a monster on the side of humanity,  most likely.

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The Stoneheart character is one of many examples in the books of the destructiveness and the futility of revenge.  There is a need for justice.  But the pursuit of justice taken too far led to the murders of Petyr and Merret Frey as well as the execution of Janos Slynt.  None of these killings served the greater good.  

Edited by Silver Bullet 1985

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Any time a character narrowly escapes death or is revived, the stakes dropped massively. Having it happen to one guy nobody cares about (Beric) doesn't drop the stakes too much, but having it happen to a character we DO care about (Cat) does significantly drop the stakes, even with the consequences of resurrection.

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6 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Any time a character narrowly escapes death or is revived, the stakes dropped massively. Having it happen to one guy nobody cares about (Beric) doesn't drop the stakes too much, but having it happen to a character we DO care about (Cat) does significantly drop the stakes, even with the consequences of resurrection.

True. 

Maybe this is GRRM's way of punishing Catelyn for her role in the WOTFKS and the murder of Aegon Frey.

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No its an excellent bit of writing 

We have gone from the gut punch of red wedding to actualy fearing for a lannister (jamie)  being killed for it! Its almost as big a switch from the hatred we initaly feel.for arrogant callow theon then the pity we later feel for reek!

Its also critical to briennes arc....shes gonna be forced to break oaths to do the right thing! Or maybe jamie will die a hero and only brienne will be alive to know the real kingslayer

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