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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Does GRRM hate heroism or avoid it? (Jon and Quentyn comparison)

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10 minutes ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death? Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

George Martin is writing a story that appeals to him.  He likes the baddies.  A good villain is hard to replace.  The people who do the most harm are not the ones who are the most hateful but the ones who are conflicted.  Humans acting out on their emotions do a lot of harm.  I don't know, but Mr. Martin seems like a fatalists to me.  Like he's saying humanity is doomed because of human nature.  

Quentyn died because he chose to play with fire.  "Heart's desire, heart's desire.  Never, never play with fire."  And Jon.  I hope he stays dead.  The story would be better in my opinion; otherwise, it's just another Gandalf moment when he gets up from his stab wounds.  

-quote from Legal Eagles

 

 

Edited by Aline de Gavrillac

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27 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

George Martin is writing a story that appeals to him.  He likes the baddies.  A good villain is hard to replace.  The people who do the most harm are not the ones who are the most hateful but the ones who are conflicted.  Humans acting out on their emotions do a lot of harm.  I don't know, but Mr. Martin seems like a fatalists to me.  Like he's saying humanity is doomed because of human nature.  

Quentyn died because he chose to play with fire.  "Heart's desire, heart's desire.  Never, never play with fire."  And Jon.  I hope he stays dead.  The story would be better in my opinion; otherwise, it's just another Gandalf moment when he gets up from his stab wounds.  

-quote from Legal Eagles

 

 

Good heroes are hard to replace too. 

Martin goads us to care about characters then have them subjected to horrible pain and death. Just look at Robb’s plotline. 

To me, Ramsay Snow/Bolton is rather out of place, considering how much he is able to avoid the consequences of his actions time and time again without so much of a slap on the wrist.

Martin says that he doesn’t want the good guys to win all the time. Funny thing is, they haven’t won at all. 

Gandalf is different; he’s a Maia, an angel given human form, which means that his soul follows different rules than ordinary people. He returned to life yes, but he was different, more powerful, less worldly. Also, it took him three weeks to return to life.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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I think GRRM is just a big believer in there being consequences to people's actions. Quentyn tried to steal a dragon and got burnt alive for it, Jon Snow tried to lead an army of wildlings to attack the Warden of the North, and got stabbed by his Nights Watch brothers for being a traitor. I wouldn't say Jon got any special treatment or anything, he is just lucky that he's a warg who could put his consciousness in Ghost before dying. 

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ASOIAF isn't Hollywood. We can't assume that The Good Prosper, the Evil get their Just Reward, and "Heroism" like "Twue Wuv", conquers all. Nor do the good guys wear white hats -- er, armor and cloaks.

Quentyn may have been heroic, in the true sense, but he was also not that smart, and went for the big romantic gesture, hoping it would turn out and he'd befriend at least one dragon. The logistics and everything else worked against him, and he lost. I will miss him, and Doran Martell will more than anyone.

What events, in particular, with Jon's arc do you have a problem with? And we haven't seen any "magic" in his Targaryen bloodline, outside of his aunt being able to hatch dragon eggs and bond with the dragons.

George RR, as I noted, doesn't do the simpleminded, rinky-dink "Hero" thing in his stories. Accept and embrace it!

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7 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death? Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

I think some people go a little overboard with the idea that George does not write good and bad stories. From what I have read about him he does like good and bad and that is heroes too. Like comic books. It is obvious that Dany is the hero of the story and that she will marry Jon as the power couple when Arya later joins in the trio. That sounds like a hero situation to me. 

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30 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

I think some people go a little overboard with the idea that George does not write good and bad stories. From what I have read about him he does like good and bad and that is heroes too. Like comic books. It is obvious that Dany is the hero of the story and that she will marry Jon as the power couple when Arya later joins in the trio. That sounds like a hero situation to me. 

The Jon and Dany love interest aspect is only obvious in the clichéd fairy tale way. Although I admit that the story could go that way I don't think that it will. 

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2 hours ago, Makk said:

The Jon and Dany love interest aspect

... is only apparent in That Which Must Not Be Named

Spoiler

(the teevie show).

In the books, Jon appears to be dead. Dany is way out on the arse-end of Essos, trudging back on (bare)foot. (Although that khalasar and Drogon could change things.) Nobody knows, and few suspect, Jon's parentage.

Besides, Young Griff/Aegon VI is being set up as Dany's latest hubbie.

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Heroes through history have frequently been assholes and George as a historian knows it.  They win out through impossible odds by being blessed by the gods in myth or with a great deal of luck or their histories are written by the victors on their side.

George does believe in heroes, though, it's just that their acts of heroism are usually setting aside prejudices and doing the right thing even against impossible odds. Jon is a hero for his fight for the Wildlings whether he is killed for it or not.  Jaime is a hero when he goes back to Harrenhal for Brienne in the face of almost certain death. Arya is a heroine when she fights for her friend despite his class.  Dany is definitely a heroine when she frees slaves though how that will be remembered and if she can sustain it is open to question.

Was Quentyn a hero? I can barely remember him and have never re-read that section because it bored me.  If he had a heroism that touched me, that wouldn't be the case: I would remember him.

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11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Was Quentyn a hero? I can barely remember him and have never re-read that section because it bored me.  If he had a heroism that touched me, that wouldn't be the case: I would remember him.

It's debatable. You could argue he was taking a great personal risk to safeguard Dorne, all of which was depending on him. Or you could argue he was a petty boy who not only risked himself but also his friends lives doing something stupid to make up for his own insecurities. I thought he was an interesting character, I wouldn't call him a hero though.

Edited by Makk

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57 minutes ago, Makk said:

It's debatable. You could argue he was taking a great personal risk to safeguard Dorne, all of which was depending on him. Or you could argue he was a petty boy who not only risked himself but also his friends lives doing something stupid to make up for his own insecurities. I thought he was an interesting character, I wouldn't call him a hero though.

He had a duty to his house and his father. He tried to tame a dragon because he didn’t want to come back with his friends lives being for nothing and disappointing his father. 

12 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Heroes through history have frequently been assholes and George as a historian knows it.  They win out through impossible odds by being blessed by the gods in myth or with a great deal of luck or their histories are written by the victors on their side.

George does believe in heroes, though, it's just that their acts of heroism are usually setting aside prejudices and doing the right thing even against impossible odds. Jon is a hero for his fight for the Wildlings whether he is killed for it or not.  Jaime is a hero when he goes back to Harrenhal for Brienne in the face of almost certain death. Arya is a heroine when she fights for her friend despite his class.  Dany is definitely a heroine when she frees slaves though how that will be remembered and if she can sustain it is open to question.

Was Quentyn a hero? I can barely remember him and have never re-read that section because it bored me.  If he had a heroism that touched me, that wouldn't be the case: I would remember him.

Do you need to be an asshole to be a hero? I don’t think so.

On 9/30/2018 at 1:41 PM, EloImFizzy said:

I think GRRM is just a big believer in there being consequences to people's actions. Quentyn tried to steal a dragon and got burnt alive for it, Jon Snow tried to lead an army of wildlings to attack the Warden of the North, and got stabbed by his Nights Watch brothers for being a traitor. I wouldn't say Jon got any special treatment or anything, he is just lucky that he's a warg who could put his consciousness in Ghost before dying. 

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who’s able to get through the worst of scrums unscathed and even stronger than he was before.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Do you need to be an asshole to be a hero? I don’t think so.

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who’s like the Joker in his ability to get through the worst of scrums unscathed and even stronger than he was before.

I wasn't saying you had to be one, only that the definition of hero is arbitrary and ephemeral depending on culture, history and who wins.

No one would call Ramsay a hero, but I absolutely take your point and agree that George takes a more realistic view and villains and heroes are definitely not awarded or punished just for their actions.  Otherwise the series could have ended in the first few books with Ned on the throne, the Lannisters obliterated and Ramsay little more than a malignant blip on our radar.

Ramsay does get through unscathed at an almost uncomfortable level; it's time for his come-uppance!

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13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who’s able to get through the worst of scrums unscathed and even stronger than he was before.

He's not really, as he's hardly been tested. Lady Hornwood did not have enough men while Rodrk Cassel's army was mostly poorly trained novices. 

 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who’s able to get through the worst of scrums unscathed and even stronger than he was before.

He hasn't yet. He will more then likely die in TWoW, and I doubt it will be a merciful death. 

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On 9/30/2018 at 9:22 AM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Does GRRM hate heroism or avoid it?

Neither?  He just presents a somewhat realistic portrayal of a grand epic adventure story.  There are heroic acts of valor on many fronts in this war.  Jamie is both a hero and a villain.  Brienne has a very heroic story so far.  Tyrion saved King's Landing from Stannis.  Jon has had quite the adventure, and he's likely to get a messanic ressurection (although I'm curious if he'll see it as a conversion event).  Personally, I think Jon really is the chosen one, and will be the song of ice and fire.  Thats going to be the big payoff of the story, and we'll all see that Rhaegar was right in the end, even if he got some of the details wrong.  Or maybe it'll be another goose egg and it'll be someone else, or even nobody.

As for Quentin, he simply wasn't the hero of the story as he thought he was. 

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48 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

He hasn't yet. He will more then likely die in TWoW, and I doubt it will be a merciful death. 

That’s if GRRM ever gets the other books off the ground. 

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Just read medieval history and tell me how "heroes" were ending. Or, not medieval, but only 20th century, when people, being heroes or being just ordinary people, suffered way, way, way worse deaths than ASOIAF heroes or smallfolk. Or today, when people who try to fight corruption and injustice are tapped on the shoulder or being laughed at, IF they are lucky. If they're not, they get blown up while driving on a bridge, found in pieces in a car, or assassinated on a daylight. 

So no, I don't think that George Martin hates heroism. He is merely advising the heroes to use their brains. Naivete, stupidity, egoism, all can undone any hero.  

On Ramsay: He gets away with as much as many serial killers/criminals managed to get away with, even in this era of fingerprints, DNA, cameras, wiretaps, law enforcement, courts of law, police dogs, and what not. 

 

 

 

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On 9/30/2018 at 6:22 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death? Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

Imo the answer to your topic is neither. GRRM is playing around with our conception of heroism.

Edited by Sigella

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On 9/30/2018 at 12:22 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death? Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

Somebody sabotaged Quentyn's plan.  Jon sabotaged himself.  Both got killed for it.  Quentyn chose to steal dragons.  They are not his to take.  It served him right to get baked.  

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