Daredevil Season 3 [SPOILERS - Page 3 and beyond]

[Mladen]

Not the news I wanted to read this morning... I am very sorry because DD was really a great show and I have thoroughly enjoyed every episode of all three seasons. I hope there is some future for Cox and co. 

[Ran]

Given that Netflix is touting the fact that it'll hold rights to air the seasons already completed, if DD shows up on Disney+ or whatever it's called, it'll be a rebooted version, I expect. 

What a shame, especially for the showrunner Erick Oleson who managed to pull together such a strong third season. At least it went out on a high note.

ETA: Per Alan Sepinwall, who is pretty wired into things, the shows Marvel is producing for Disney+ are being handled by the company's film studio side rather than Marvel TV. Marvel Studios pretty much hate Marvel TV, and are not going to be interested in picking up the shows as they currently are, and in any case the contracts with Netflix make it pretty much impossible. Sepinwall says that there might one day be a new Luke Cage show (as an example, I'm sure he says this applies to all the shows)... but it's going to be a few years down the line, and be a total reboot from top to bottom.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Given that Netflix is touting the fact that it'll hold rights to air the seasons already completed, if DD shows up on Disney+ or whatever it's called, it'll be a rebooted version, I expect. 

What a shame, especially for the showrunner Erick Oleson who managed to pull together such a strong third season. At least it went out on a high note.

It'll be rebooted for disney tv or ideally films.

There's no way these cancellations aren't down to a strained Disney/Netflix relationship. Although now im thinking its as much netflix as disney being awkward.

Also lets wave goodbye to season 4/3 of JJ/Punisher. The shitty thing is i think both the shows new seasons are filming/filmed so they can't even resolve storylines to wrap things up. Daredevil deserved at least a miniseries to finish things off. All viewers are being left with are a series of cliffhangers. They could have at least thrown viewers a bone with a storyline that resolved things eg a defenders sequel. This all looks like the result of two headstrong companies refusing to compromise and neither coming off well.

It will teach me to be much more wary of Netflix's licensed deals (although that can be hard to parse). As for Disney, it's nothing new for them. They cancelled a bunch of animated marvel/star wars animated shows upon gaining control. From a logical point i can see why they do it and while it generates bad will they know most of us will come crawling back when they make a "defenders" movie or tv show with all new cast.

Its a shame netflix bought millarworld comics as they have the right idea going forward but dubious source material. I think they might also have bought some liefeld comics but they are so nebulous/bad they can probably do what they want with them - liefeld has a knack of creating characters that others make a success out of eg cable, Deadpool and prophet.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

It'll be rebooted for disney tv or ideally films.

There's no way these cancellations aren't down to a strained Disney/Netflix relationship. Although now im thinking its as much netflix as disney being awkward.

Also lets wave goodbye to season 4/3 of JJ/Punisher. The shitty thing is i think both the shows new seasons are filming/filmed so they can't even resolve storylines to wrap things up. Daredevil deserved at least a miniseries to finish things off. All viewers are being left with are a series of cliffhangers. They could have at least thrown viewers a bone with a storyline that resolved things eg a defenders sequel. This all looks like the result of two headstrong companies refusing to compromise and neither coming off well.

It will teach me to be much more wary of Netflix's licensed deals (although that can be hard to parse). As for Disney, it's nothing new for them. They cancelled a bunch of animated marvel/star wars animated shows upon gaining control. From a logical point i can see why they do it and while it generates bad will they know most of us will come crawling back when they make a "defenders" movie or tv show with all new cast.

Its a shame netflix bought millarworld comics as they have the right idea going forward but dubious source material. I think they might also have bought some liefeld comics but they are so nebulous/bad they can probably do what they want with them - liefeld has a knack of creating characters that others make a success out of eg cable, Deadpool and prophet.

The only cliffhanger was Bullseye's status. Matt, Foggy, and Karen getting the band back together has a feel good ending. Fisk is in jail, which if the show had continued something could have been written that he will try again to destroy DD. In this case, it can simply be assumed he'll be watched more closely, and he has lost all credibility.

[DaveSumm]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

if DD shows up on Disney+ or whatever it's called, it'll be a rebooted version, I expect. 

Repeating myself from the other thread I think, but I still don’t see it as likely at all that they’ll reboot these characters. I don’t understand why they would. They’ve proven they can launch unknown heroes, and they have about a billion more still to mine from the back catalogue of Marvel comics. It’d be the first example of an official ‘de-canonisation’ of something, which then casts doubt over everything else. I’d wager they’ll either leave them alone, or just have this iteration of Daredevil show up in an MCU film or tv show. They did it perfectly well with Spider-Man in Civil War where they just skipped his origin, I don’t see why they couldn’t do the same here. If you wanna find out more, then great, watch these three seasons on Netflix. It’d be a real reward through all these years of MCU - AoSMCU - NetflixMCU, to see them really embrace the whole thing and tie it all together. I’d be much more inclined to watch all the TV output with a gesture like that.

That said, I still think the most likely eventuality is that they just just ignore them. 

[john]

It’s definitely Netflix to blame. They overpaid for the shows in the first place and deliberately entered into what they knew would be a fraught relationship because they were desperate for big brand content at the time. Disney’s just a media behemoth acting as you would expect a behemoth to act.

[red snow]

29 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Repeating myself from the other thread I think, but I still don’t see it as likely at all that they’ll reboot these characters. I don’t understand why they would. They’ve proven they can launch unknown heroes, and they have about a billion more still to mine from the back catalogue of Marvel comics. It’d be the first example of an official ‘de-canonisation’ of something, which then casts doubt over everything else. I’d wager they’ll either leave them alone, or just have this iteration of Daredevil show up in an MCU film or tv show. They did it perfectly well with Spider-Man in Civil War where they just skipped his origin, I don’t see why they couldn’t do the same here. If you wanna find out more, then great, watch these three seasons on Netflix. It’d be a real reward through all these years of MCU - AoSMCU - NetflixMCU, to see them really embrace the whole thing and tie it all together. I’d be much more inclined to watch all the TV output with a gesture like that.

That said, I still think the most likely eventuality is that they just just ignore them. 

They recast Spider-Man before introducing him into the MCU so that counts against us seeing the Netflix actors reprise their roles. The TV and Film division are run by different people to the point its almost like the arrowverse and dceu. The main difference being CW/WB never lied/told people they were connected.

The new shows for the Disney channel are being handled by the movie side so there's further reason for them to differentiate. People will be upset about things being non canon but much like star wars people will adapt. They could even use it as a marketing draw to the disney service by saying "if we don't show it, it's not canon"

[Nictarion]

Fuck Netflix 

[red snow]

35 minutes ago, john said:

It’s definitely Netflix to blame. They overpaid for the shows in the first place and deliberately entered into what they knew would be a fraught relationship because they were desperate for big brand content at the time. Disney’s just a media behemoth acting as you would expect a behemoth to act.

Yeah, i may not like it but it makes sense what Disney are doing. It sort of makes sense for Netflix too. They bought the shows to win subscribers over. I know i only wound up with netflix on a full time basis because of daredevil but i stay for all the other shows they now have. So in that sense the marvel shows have probably served their purpose they were a draw when they had far fewer high calibre shows. 

Im still thinking there was some contractually shit going on because they were flying through sequel seasons this year as if they had a deadline to meet eg "you need to pay us a lot more per season in 2019". Otherwise I'm a bit confused as to why they bothered with making more shows as their purpose had already been served. I guess tbey might have been hoping for better ratings across the line.

I just feel bad for JJ and Punisher as everyone knows those shows are dead on arrival which may give many pause to bother watching them at all.

[Ran]

The underlying fact appears to be that Disney dug in its heels for 13 episode seasons, despite the obvious fact that they rarely worked, and basically threw up all the contractual roadblocks it could to actually providing Netflix the best possible content.

I guess it's Netflix's fault for making a bad deal with the devil, but end of the day, the devil's still the devil, man.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

They recast Spider-Man before introducing him into the MCU so that counts against us seeing the Netflix actors reprise their roles. The TV and Film division are run by different people to the point its almost like the arrowverse and dceu. The main difference being CW/WB never lied/told people they were connected.

The new shows for the Disney channel are being handled by the movie side so there's further reason for them to differentiate. People will be upset about things being non canon but much like star wars people will adapt. They could even use it as a marketing draw to the disney service by saying "if we don't show it, it's not canon"

They recast because The Amazing Spider-Man never purported to be in the MCU, and was fundamentally incompatable with it. The current status of Daredevil is that it is in the MCU, and has referenced events from the movies. 

Let’s say in Spider-Man 3, Daredevil shows up briefly ... nothing much, maybe to the same extent that Falcon was in Ant-Man. An intro similar to Spider-Man’s in Civil War: there’s an upcoming fight, and Peter ‘knows somebody’. Which of these is the bigger draw - Charlie Cox showing up as the Netflix Daredevil, or some new guy? Is there a single advantage to a new guy? You either pull in the existing Daredevil fans as potential ticket sales, galvanising the idea that TV shows are canon (I know the new ones will be run by Marvel Studios, but generally conveying that MCU shows are canon and will pay off can’t hurt can it?) ... or you recast, piss off existing fans, confuse the canon, set the precedent that anything might get declared non-canon? Why? I can’t think of a single benefit. Surely there can’t be anyone who would see a movie with Daredevil in it that they wouldn’t otherwise, but who didn’t watch the Netflix series?

I’m not exactly sure how it works, but who is making the statement that the character will appear again? Marvel TV or Marvel Studios? I don’t imagine the Studios would handle cancellation announcements, but then I don’t picture Marvel TV to have the authority to say what’s happening in the movies either.

[mormont]

27 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

They recast because The Amazing Spider-Man never purported to be in the MCU, and was fundamentally incompatable with it. The current status of Daredevil is that it is in the MCU, and has referenced events from the movies. 

Let’s say in Spider-Man 3, Daredevil shows up briefly ... nothing much, maybe to the same extent that Falcon was in Ant-Man.

Right off the bat, this is an unlikely scenario, because... why would he? If recasting is such a problem as you suggest, the easiest answer is just not to use the character.

27 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

An intro similar to Spider-Man’s in Civil War: there’s an upcoming fight, and Peter ‘knows somebody’. Which of these is the bigger draw - Charlie Cox showing up as the Netflix Daredevil, or some new guy?

Depends on who the new guy is, really.

27 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Is there a single advantage to a new guy?

Yes. No legal complications.

You're suggesting a Marvel film uses the Netflix version of Daredevil, and that means Netflix surely have some case for recompense. There's no way of casting Cox and avoiding that complication. A recast DD, though, should be easy - it's a whole different version of a character Marvel own the rights to.

27 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

You either pull in the existing Daredevil fans as potential ticket sales, galvanising the idea that TV shows are canon (I know the new ones will be run by Marvel Studios, but generally conveying that MCU shows are canon and will pay off can’t hurt can it?) ... or you recast, piss off existing fans, confuse the canon, set the precedent that anything might get declared non-canon? Why? I can’t think of a single benefit.

The number of existing Netflix DD fans starts off as significantly smaller than the number of Marvel film fans. If you then reduce that to the number who would go see a film because it has DD in it but wouldn't go otherwise, well, that number is not anywhere near an amount that would 'galvanise' ticket sales, realistically. Same goes for the number who wouldn't go if the role was recast.

I can't realistically see much damage that recasting would do.

 

[Ran]

Sepinwall points out that the whole recasting of Spider-man wasn't an MCU issue, per se -- it was that Marvel was going to produce it, and wanted a complete creative overhaul, top to bottom.

This is the same thing they'll do if they ever reintroduce the Netflix TV series characters to the MCU -- top-to-bottom creative overhaul, including new casting. None of the Marvel Film execs wants a hand-me-down production.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Right off the bat, this is an unlikely scenario, because... why would he? If recasting is such a problem as you suggest, the easiest answer is just not to use the character.

Well yes, to be clear, I think that’s the most likely scenario. I was just arguing that between the two options of recast or not, I think using Cox makes more sense. 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Yes. No legal complications.

Entirely possible, I have no idea. I would’ve thought Marvel were sensible enough to leave the door open for the Netflix characters to tie in down the line, I’d be surprised if they weren’t allowed to use him. But yes, possibly it’d involve giving a slice to Netflix.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The number of existing Netflix DD fans starts off as significantly smaller than the number of Marvel film fans. If you then reduce that to the number who would go see a film because it has DD in it but wouldn't go otherwise, well, that number is not anywhere near an amount that would 'galvanise' ticket sales, realistically. Same goes for the number who wouldn't go if the role was recast.

I can't realistically see much damage that recasting would do.

Even if you’re right and it doesn’t do any damage, I just don’t see what is on the other side of the scales. Probably won’t do any damage vs ..... what? As you say, there isn’t really a box office pull there. So why bother?

[red snow]

Quoting gets messy here but in response to Davesumm. Amazing Spider-Man was deliberately fone in such a way that it could easily be incorporated into MCU. They wanted a fresh start and it to be their product so reboot and recast was necessary. 

In the same way if feige's branch of MCU want to use these characters they will recast/reboot because they want it to be their project and not be beholden to the previous attempt. The netflix shows became less popular with time, most of the MCU films do the opposite. Why would they want to burden themselves with a flagging version? Which is a shame because besides iron fist the casting for the netflix shows was impeccable.

Why would marvel want to use these characters again? Because people are now aware of the characters and if marvel ever want to do a "dark knight" style film daredevil is their best option. They could try moon knight but his personality makes that trickier.

[mormont]

19 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Even if you’re right and it doesn’t do any damage, I just don’t see what is on the other side of the scales. Probably won’t do any damage vs ..... what? As you say, there isn’t really a box office pull there. So why bother?

The question isn't 'why bother recasting?', though. It's 'why not recast?'

Keeping Cox brings little to the table and ties you to one specific actor who might not be available, will be in a strong position to negotiate and (as noted) is tied to another company's production. In return you get what?

Recasting isn't a bother. Quite the opposite. It does no damage and allows greater freedom to Disney. They can cast anyone, they're not tied to the past continuity, they can do whatever they want.

So yeah, this version of DD, along with Colter's Luke Cage, Jones' Iron Fist, and soon the rest of them, are done. You can watch them in the existing series, but don't look for them again.

[Relic]

4 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Fuck Netflix 

Lol. They gave you three seasons of a show you love, and you're pissed because you can't have more? How many hours of Netflix do you consume a month? 

[DaveSumm]

50 minutes ago, mormont said:

The question isn't 'why bother recasting?', though. It's 'why not recast?'

Keeping Cox brings little to the table and ties you to one specific actor who might not be available, will be in a strong position to negotiate and (as noted) is tied to another company's production. In return you get what?

Recasting isn't a bother. Quite the opposite. It does no damage and allows greater freedom to Disney. They can cast anyone, they're not tied to the past continuity, they can do whatever they want.

So yeah, this version of DD, along with Colter's Luke Cage, Jones' Iron Fist, and soon the rest of them, are done. You can watch them in the existing series, but don't look for them again.

I guess the question is: would a Daredevil movie perform better than any other movie they could potentially put out? I don’t think so. They have such a great record of launching new characters that they don’t need Daredevil. It’s the same reason I don’t think they’re gonna jump on the Fantastic Four like others here seem to; they’ve got baggage with a recent bad movie, so why bother? However insignificant you may perceive the baggage to be with Daredevil, the question is still ‘why bother’? Or to answer your question specifically of ‘why not recast’: because there’s no more money in it for them compared to any other movie.

[Mladen]

52 minutes ago, mormont said:

So yeah, this version of DD, along with Colter's Luke Cage, Jones' Iron Fist, and soon the rest of them, are done. You can watch them in the existing series, but don't look for them again.

At the end of the day, this is what hurts the most. I have truly enjoyed Cox as Daredevil and I believe he has done amazing work, certainly not deserving this kind of exit (but then again, that can be said about entire production of DD TV show)

I am truly sad because I have truly loved this Daredevil and thought it was among the finest superhero stories ever told. 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I guess the question is: would a Daredevil movie perform better than any other movie they could potentially put out? I don’t think so.

Nor do I. We were talking about a hypothetical guest appearance in the MCU, which I noted was pretty unlikely in the first place. But if it hypothetically were to happen, it would almost certainly not be the return of Charlie Cox.