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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] The Dance (unabridged version) including the reign of Viserys I

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Not sure where is the best place for this question, but since it relates to characters that figure heavily in The Dance, I vote for here.  My question is:  Is the entirety of the story The Rogue Prince in this edition of F&B?  I have read The Princess and The Queen (that seems to be fully covered by chapter titles and such), but I never have read TRP.  So, is it in here?  Thanks in advance for answers.  It seems to be the only story I cannot find confirmation on being in the Fire and Blood series. 

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Just now, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Not sure where is the best place for this question, but since it relates to characters that figure heavily in The Dance, I vote for here.  My question is:  Is the entirety of the story The Rogue Prince in this edition of F&B?  I have read The Princess and The Queen (that seems to be fully covered by chapter titles and such), but I never have read TRP.  So, is it in here?  Thanks in advance for answers.  It seems to be the only story I cannot find confirmation on being in the Fire and Blood series. 

Yes, it's essentially here. TRP was basically a bastardized version of "The Heirs of the Dragon", edited to try and focus it more on Daemon, but all the content is essentially there besides minor tweaks.

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Just now, Ran said:

Yes, it's essentially here. TRP was basically a bastardized version of "The Heirs of the Dragon", edited to try and focus it more on Daemon, but all the content is essentially there besides minor tweaks.

Ok, thanks a lot.  I've just hit Viserys sitting the throne and have been wondering on what I may or may not wind up missing the whole time.  I'd always meant to read Rogue, it was on my 'one of these days' list.  Thanks again. 

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6 hours ago, Maia said:

And yet, isn't it odd that sources don't consider it to be a clear proof of romantic relationship? I mean, it isn't like they shy away from writing about Daemon's infidelities towards Rhaenyra with Mysaria - so why this odd tentativeness with Nettles? You'd think that they would jump on the affair interpretation with an older man and a younger woman associating so closely - certainly even Jahaerys I wasn't spared in the m,atter of Alicent taking care of him - even though him often mistaking her for Saera when his wits began to eander would be an argument against it, for me. 

Aside from the bathtub scene - which can hint at a sexual or romantic relationship but doesn't have to - all the other hints at intimacy are much more reminiscent for a father-daughter or mentor-pupil relationship, and George really goes out of his way to give us no direct insights in the nature of their relationship. No insight into their last night, no insight into what they talked about when Norren visited them, etc.

And the bathtub part of the story is the least confirmed part of it, not going back to things Norren actually witnessed himself but it is based on gossip of the maidservants.

Also the talk when the Mootons assess the options implies that the two sleeping rooms are not connected, considering that they are sure the prince sleeps beside her (i.e. in the other room) not with her - which would be the case if they were young couple. Such people rarely sleep apart if they have the opportunity to sleep in one bed...

6 hours ago, Maia said:

That would make for the stuff of legends given all the many prior unsuccessful and lethal attempts to claim Cannibal - too much so, IMHO, for it not to turn into a popular legend, the subject of songs, etc. Therefore I very much doubt it. In fact, I doubt that Aemond's alleged son lives to adulthood, unless he is captured and given to the Night's Watch.

I don't think we should pretend to know what's happened during the reign of Aegon III. We do not. TWoIaF gave us no new information on the reign of the Dragonbane at all aside from the year the last dragon died (the fake Daerons were drawn from the footnote in FaB) and that the Nine Mages showed up in his day. That's it.

What is also very telling is that George didn't give Ran and Linda anything what happened to Harrenhal between the end of the Dance and it being awarded to Lucas Lothston. That makes it very likely that the interregnum there might be as interesting as that between the last Towers and the first Strong. Aemond's son can grow to manhood in the years between 131-153 AC. And if the boy and Alys Rivers were supposed to disappear with a whimper the regents could have dealt with them. Instead they fail to do anything about them.

How it can make sense that Aegon III cannot deal with this problem until it becomes a pretty big thing has to be addressed, of course, but he may face other challenges before - those fake Daerons, other rebellions, conspiracies and assassinations at court, the problem of Larra Rogare not properly fitting in (and subsequent problems with Viserys), etc.

Not to mention that Harrenhal - if manned properly and defended by devoted followers - should be impossible to starve out or take by storm. And what we learn in FaB implies that Alys actually has such men.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

The only source that doesn't take her to have been his lover is Eustace, though, who simply bases it on her being too ill-favored for Daemon's tastes. Mysaria claimed they were sleeping together, Mushroom claimed it, Gyldayn reads Norren's account as supporting it. We don't really know who else looked at Norren's work, but that said, the best chronicler of the era -- Munkun -- appears to be silent on the subject other than having noted that Nettles was a skinny brown girl.

Chroniclers cannot really help us to resolve this issue if they can only speculate and cannot cite any eyewitnesses. The only proper source on Nettles/Daemon at Harrenhal is Norren, and he never saw them sharing a bathtub - or kiss, or sleep together, etc.

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On 11/21/2018 at 7:56 AM, Lord Varys said:

Daemon certainly would have been, one assumes. And considering they were touchingly close and the man seems to have been desperately trying to make up for being a non-existent, shitty father it seems to me that he may have also told Nettles about that. There must be a reason why she is as distraught as he was when they parted ways.

Nettles is more or less confirmed to have the fatherless daughter of a dockside whore on Driftmark. Her age fits with the time Daemon would have spent time there for his Stepstones campaign. And whatever details we got on their intimacy - them sharing a bathtub (like Dunk & Egg), Daemon trying to teach Nettles courtly manners, him giving her a costly comb for her hair, etc. - does not imply they were lovers.

And, in fact, the most hideous twist there is that the whole line of 'A queen's words, a whore's work'. The former is a reference to Rhaenyra, but the latter to Mysaria who - despite the fact that she became Daemon's paramour again after he and Rhaenyra had taken the city - told Rhaenyra that Nettles had already betrayed Daemon by seducing her consort and carrying his child. She is the one who wields the knife there (and a very small echo of that can be find in TWoIaF where it says that the Daemon/Nettles drove a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra - it is not so much the thing it is Mysaria who makes it so).

Now, Mysaria's motives are very strange here. She has Daemon's affection (or at least she has sex with him) so what's her issue here? Here I think we have to get back to Daemon and Mysaria's early story, back when Viserys I had just taken the throne. Back then Mysaria was Daemon's official paramour, they spent some time together on Dragonstone where Daemon impregnated her, bestowing a dragon egg on Mysaria. That went to far for Viserys I, he commanded Daemon to take the egg back, and return to his lawful wife in the Vale. And Daemon acted as a complete shit-head, putting his pregnant paramour on a ship back to Lys and during the journey she lost her unborn child.

Now, what does this mean? If we assume that Nettles is Daemon's daughter, then she is the child Mysaria would have gladly given Daemon. A child she lost because of Daemon himself. And now, in old age, he cares more about the child of some whore than her - or the child they could have had. That may have been too much for a woman as twisted as Mysaria.

She cannot have a proper political reason, considering she was a great asset on Daemon and Rhaenyra's way to power - and Rhaenyra actually rewarded her for that, never mind that she continued to share her consort's bed (Eustace's ugly comment that Rhaenyra's slakes her appetites on food rather than the way Daemon does really shows how much of tragic character Rhaenyra is) - unless ...

There is a very curious thing going on when Mysaria is summoned into the throne room to advise Rhaenyra on Nettles. George actually takes his time to describe Mysaria's wardrobe (which he doesn't usually do in FaB):

Those are the Targaryen colors. Why is it that Mysaria of Lys presumes to wear the colors of the royal family? Is it because she is Daemon's paramour? Perhaps. But there is another thing - this is how things are phrased when Mysaria first shows up:

That doesn't mean this has to be her real name, the name she was born with.

Considering that we know who went to Lys in 85 AC starting a profession there that can lead to many a pregnancy, there is a chance that Mysaria is actually the daughter and eldest child of Princess Saera. Mysaria is a dancing girl when Daemon first meets her around 105 AC, which would if she were Saera's daughter and if she was born shortly after Saera's arrival there (perhaps fathered by one of the sailors or the captain who took her aboard the ship to Lys in exchange for warming his bed throughout the journey) then she would be 19-20 at the time we first meet her.

It would fit.

The question is: Am I reading too much into a hooded robe of black velvet lined with blood-red silk ;-)?

The scene with Mysaria also made note of her extremely pale skin and how she peered from beneath the black-and-red hood. This reminded me more of Bloodraven than anyone else. 

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Hey Lord Varys is there any information on what happens to Aegon the first crown, in the world book and princess and the queen its mention that Aemond wore his brother's crown during his brief regency. Did it wash up shore with prince Aemond's corpse along with Dark Sister and was it taken by Alys Rivers to be worn by her infant son by Aemond.

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Daeron I is the last Targaryen king to wear the Conqueror's crown. Aemond was certainly not wearing it at his death, as he was wearing a helm.

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Daeron I is the last Targaryen king to wear the Conqueror's crown. Aemond was certainly not wearing it at his death, as he was wearing a helm.

Thinking about those artifacts - did you guys ever ask George where the hell Blackfyre was during the Dance? We learn in the beginning that Aegon II had it, but was there ever talk about whether he took it with him when he went to Dragonstone? Or whether Aemond actually took it with him to Harrenhal on his campaign?

The crown may have stayed with Aegon II in KL - and he may have then taken it with him to Dragonstone later on, considering that Rhaenyra stuck to the Conciliator's crown.

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The text mentions some petty lords and landed knights from the Blackwater joining the blacks at Tumbleton, among them Moslander of Yore, Ser Garrick Hall of Middleton, Ser Merrell the Bold, and Lord Owain Bourney. This Moslander confuses me a bit. Is it meant to be a given name (like Mollander) or a family name (like Wyl of Wyl)? @Ran What do you think about it?

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After reading Fire and Blood, I think that if there was a maester's conspiracy (I doubt it would have been mentioned in AFFC and ADWD if there wasn't), it probably started after the Dance, not before. Morning seems to be doing fine as of now, so I'm guessing there was some manipulation that resulted in her death.

Perhaps there was a prophecy that the dragons would return, leading the maesters to attempt to supplant the Targaryens. (Granted, they left the Velaryons well enough alone).

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On 12/13/2018 at 6:06 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Morning seems to be doing fine as of now, so I'm guessing there was some manipulation that resulted in her death.

I have a headcanon that Morning eventually died in battle. Alys Rivers has a dragon and a son in Harrenhal after all, who might grow up to be a pretender late in the reign of Aegon III.

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I'm reasonably confident that Silverwing, the Cannibal, and Morning are all going to get violent deaths. The poisoned dragons - if there are any such - will be crippled and twisted hatchlings. At this point we have no idea how many eggs are going to hatch during the reign of Aegon III. The Unworthy and the Dragonknight and Naerys and Aegon III's children might all get dragons of some sort. But they are not likely to ride any of them.

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