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Curled Finger

The Prophecy Glitch

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"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."  AFFC Samwell V

Martin himself tells a story about a king who avoided a castle due to prophecy only to die at an inn with an image of the castle as its sign.  How much importance should actually be placed upon prophecy in a tale rife with symbolism and foreshadowing?   Admittedly, I didn't catch most of any of it on my 1st and even 2nd read.   What kept me coming back is knowing that there were mysteries I hadn't discovered and of course, magic swords.   I'm good with the swords and their fascinating potential in ASOIAF.   I don't need foreshadowing, because, well, the story unfolds and it doesn't matter if I catch a hint about this in the first place.   Symbolism is another thing I'm just not good with.   I'm a literal reader and this story has more than enough blood and guts and mystery to satisfy my criteria.   So X character is a throw back to some long forgotten Norse god or Aztec king?   Although very interesting and educational, I'm not invested in these sorts of parallels.  They don't matter in my understanding of the story or its unraveling.   It's far more satisfying when I can identify an historical ASOIAF character or event in the current tale.   For my time and effort, Brienne is far more interesting than Lyanna.   Brienne is alive and kicking and I can pick up on real intel regarding her adventures far better than whatever Lyanna had going.   Doesn't mean Lyanna isn't interesting, she just resides in a place I can't really put the effort in for.   Her story will be told if Martin deems it so.   He has given me Brienne and she is fascinating on a level Lyanna just can't be to me.   

Martin has cautioned his readers about the nature of prophecy, as noted in the text above and paraphrase of a story he's told more than once in interviews.    As a literal reader who really just doesn't get all the cool behind the world stuff so many of my fellow fans are so very good at, I don't understand why so much importance is placed upon prophecy.   Dany's experience in the House of the Undying seemed like a drug trip to me.   I would have never in a million years have put the vision of the ravaged woman together with the WOT5K.    Dany was tripping and that's sort of where all that is in my estimation.   Maybe all that stuff really means something as many have put together very nicely.   Maybe it was all just the dope.    Quaithe and Mel?   Good grief, all that beware of and born of--what's the point?   It was clear to me on the 1st read that Dany has some greater destiny than being her bother's victim.    She's a queen and she's got dragons.   Some wicked bad destruction is in the little queen's hands.  I don't know why we need Quaithe to pop in for a visit to tell her the dragons know what they are and make Dany question her own identity.  Even I know who Dany is and I never doubted Dany knows who she is.   Mirri Maz Dur liked to spout off at Dany, too.  She also had an axe to grind.   Jon?   Yah, Jon could use a friend like Quaithe to help him sort things out.    Poor guy only had a Red Priestess to give her confusing warnings that she may not even understand.   It's like reading most of Patchface--WTH?    Jon isn't a particularly psychic sensitive.    How is he supposed to make sense of Mel's confusing predictions?  More importantly, how am I?   Does anyone trust anything that comes out of Moqorro's mouth?   Why would he be more reliable than Melisandre?   The dragon must have 3 heads--duh, Dany's got 3 dragons.   Do I really need more than that?  

 ASOIAF makes a great deal of sense to me without knowing or understanding all the literary devices some folks find so important.   The story is full to the brim with subtlety and overt declarations.   I don't think and never have thought that Quaithe was Dany's friend, where maybe Mel actually will have a chance to be Jon's friend.   The great prophecies of both Patchface and the Ghost of High Heart are nice, but gads, a little clarity would have gone much further in my book.  I don't feel particularly stupid for not picking up on all the predictions of the Red Wedding.   Even if I had, it still would have been an awful thing to read, and is.   It's not hard to form ideas about the progression of ASOIAF without the finer nuances of symbolism, foreshadowing and this prophecy GRRM warns everyone not to trust any way.   Why is prophecy such a big deal among readers?   

 

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The only thing Quaithe and Mel have in common are being Shadowbinders from Asshai.  I would not assume Mel is a friend to Snowhead.  A deeply religious person is only loyal to her god and never to a man.   The same can be said for Moqorro.  Mo is not loyal to Captain Victarion.  He serves R'hllor.  Mel serves R'hllor.  She's not loyal to Stannis and she is not going to be loyal to Snowflake.  

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25 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The only thing Quaithe and Mel have in common are being Shadowbinders from Asshai.  I would not assume Mel is a friend to Snowhead.  A deeply religious person is only loyal to her god and never to a man.   The same can be said for Moqorro.  Mo is not loyal to Captain Victarion.  He serves R'hllor.  Mel serves R'hllor.  She's not loyal to Stannis and she is not going to be loyal to Snowflake.  

Not assuming anything really, Ser.   The only things I really see any of these woowoo characters have in common is their propensity for prediction.    However, you bring up a really good point about Mel & Mo--they are fanatics for R'hllor.  Insofar as loyalty to Jon goes...who knows?   Maybe if Mel gets an epiphany about the wrongness of her interpretations she might be able to reign it all in and actually help Jon where she obviously can't help Stannis?    If there is a pact it may be written somewhere and perhaps that is the misconception all the prognosticators are under.   The retelling of past events doesn't predict the future.   But they want it to.   

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Well, I think grrm is one of the best writers dealing with profecies that I know of.

And while you argue about how his profecies are unlear or confusing I think that it is what makes them actually work.

I mean, can you imagine how boring it is to read several hundred pages about an event that you already know how will happen? For me that is one of the major problems about including profecies in a story. And it does happen in several books that use profecies...

On the other hand grrm's profecies are so well done that we generally don t know about which character they are refering and sometines even after the event happens we are unsure if the profecy was refering to that. 

 

And what all these profecies bring to the story is providing the readers the ability to creat theories about what will happen next based on the actual text. Because while foreshadowing is interesting I don t think that foreshadowing is very useful in asoiaf becase grrm rarelly goes through with the events he foreshadows while his profecies happen all the time...

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Oh I forgot.

While I find the simbolism within the story interesting when people start making references like

Quote

 So X character is a throw back to some long forgotten Norse god or Aztec king? 

I kind of turn off.

I mean, I am Reading a fantasy story… Not studing some literary masterpiece for school where I am trying to find relations to other masterpieces that show some language skill the author wanted to use… 

Honestly, I think those kind of paralelisms are kind of fantasies and while they have their own insteresting aspects they are rather useless

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I don’t get the fascination either. It only becomes interesting for me when viewed as a character device: why do they think it’s important or not, how do they interpret it one way as opposed to another and why, what choices will they make or not make to ensure or prevent it and to what extent will they go?

I think some are invested in using prophesy as a way of constructing a sense of where the story will go after so long a wait. As such, I think prophesy might be used as a way to lead the reader down one road in order to keep them off another. Perhaps an educational red herring not unlike what we were given when we were led to make a judgement on Jaime only to shown later why we were wrong. Also, I don’t think GRRM is going to be lazy and rewrite what’s already been written and I don’t think such important future plot events were given away so easily as some seem to think.

 

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Prophecy is interesting to readers for the same reason it is interesting to characters, it makes readers think they can guess future events before they happen. Knowing that prophecy will bite your dick off just means you include that possibility in your predictions (i.e. you consider the various ways the prophecy may be misleading, yet true, in your predictions.)

 

Obviously not all readers are the same though, some topics that are interesting to some are boring to others. Some things that seem subtle to some seem obvious to others. Some things that seem true to some seem false to others...

 

For instance, for me thinking of King Robert as a callback to the Laughing Storm is interesting... but thinking of him as any of like 5 different characters in the "real life" War of the Roses that people have argued... is a snorefest since it seems totally irrelevant to me.

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25 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don’t get the fascination either. It only becomes interesting for me when viewed as a character device: why do they think it’s important or not, how do they interpret it one way as opposed to another and why, what choices will they make or not make to ensure or prevent it and to what extent will they go?

 

I think some are invested in using prophesy as a way of constructing a sense of where the story will go after so long a wait. As such, I think prophesy might be used as a way to lead the reader down one road in order to keep them off another. Perhaps an educational red herring not unlike what we were given when we were led to make a judgement on Jaime only to shown later why we were wrong. Also, I don’t think GRRM is going to be lazy and rewrite what’s already been written and I don’t think such important future plot events were given away so easily as some seem to think.

 

 

 

What a great vote of confidence.   Thanks for your thoughts on this.   All my real world ASOIAF friends are really big on prophecy.  I will say something and invariably I get something about the prophecies back.    It's not bad, but like you, I think there is maybe far less to the prophecies than most of us think.    Thanks a lot for that, Lollygag.   

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23 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Prophecy is interesting to readers for the same reason it is interesting to characters, it makes readers think they can guess future events before they happen. Knowing that prophecy will bite your dick off just means you include that possibility in your predictions (i.e. you consider the various ways the prophecy may be misleading, yet true, in your predictions.)

 

Obviously not all readers are the same though, some topics that are interesting to some are boring to others. Some things that seem subtle to some seem obvious to others. Some things that seem true to some seem false to others...

 

For instance, for me thinking of King Robert as a callback to the Laughing Storm is interesting... but thinking of him as any of like 5 different characters in the "real life" War of the Roses that people have argued... is a snorefest since it seems totally irrelevant to me.

Good points and though I find the real world historical characters interesting as spring board characters, I've yet to find a really good match.   In world historical characters are fascinating taken in with the current story.   Based upon is good enough for me.   I don't think prophecy is boring.   I think it's more likely misdirection.   When I look at Mel as misdirected she becomes a whole lot more interesting than the religious fanatic who can't really read her fires.   

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Prophecies are definitely interesting and they add a different dimension. But yes, readers like the characters should take them with a grain of salt. 

My personal favorite thing about the prophecies is watching the characters try to make them work or make sense of them. We see it with Mel's ritual on Dragonstone, the burning of the Seven, the sword in the Mother's breast, salt and smoke, using glamours and whatever she sees in the fires that fit her interpretations and then her ignoring what the flames insist on showing her. 

And we have Cersei who by trying to thwart what Maggy the Frog told her all those years ago has created a giant mess for herself. Her hatred of Tyrion, her paranoia that he will some day kill her, everything she did to bring down Margaery that resulted in her being imprisoned and her walk of atonement. 

Prophecies have such an ugly side. The people who make them know a thing or two about magic. They are the real deal or play at pretend or let their opinions cloud their better judgement. It's a mess.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."  AFFC Samwell V

Martin himself tells a story about a king who avoided a castle due to prophecy only to die at an inn with an image of the castle as its sign.  How much importance should actually be placed upon prophecy in a tale rife with symbolism and foreshadowing?   Admittedly, I didn't catch most of any of it on my 1st and even 2nd read. What kept me coming back is knowing that there were mysteries I hadn't discovered

Hey CF! Well said, as usual. :)

Will get back to this further down. 

Quote

and of course, magic swords.   I'm good with the swords and their fascinating potential in ASOIAF.   

Yeah! Where is that thread of yours? Let’s bring it back, that was an interesting convo, like @The Fattest Leech‘s one on the NW vows. 

Quote

I don't need foreshadowing, because, well, the story unfolds and it doesn't matter if I catch a hint about this in the first place.   Symbolism is another thing I'm just not good with.   I'm a literal reader and this story has more than enough blood and guts and mystery to satisfy my criteria.   So X character is a throw back to some long forgotten Norse god or Aztec king?   Although very interesting and educational, I'm not invested in these sorts of parallels.  They don't matter in my understanding of the story or its unraveling.   It's far more satisfying when I can identify an historical ASOIAF character or event in the current tale.   For my time and effort, Brienne is far more interesting than Lyanna.   Brienne is alive and kicking and I can pick up on real intel regarding her adventures far better than whatever Lyanna had going.   Doesn't mean Lyanna isn't interesting, she just resides in a place I can't really put the effort in for.   Her story will be told if Martin deems it so.   He has given me Brienne and she is fascinating on a level Lyanna just can't be to me.   

Martin has cautioned his readers about the nature of prophecy, as noted in the text above and paraphrase of a story he's told more than once in interviews.    As a literal reader who really just doesn't get all the cool behind the world stuff so many of my fellow fans are so very good at, I don't understand why so much importance is placed upon prophecy.   Dany's experience in the House of the Undying seemed like a drug trip to me.   I would have never in a million years have put the vision of the ravaged woman together with the WOT5K.    Dany was tripping and that's sort of where all that is in my estimation.   Maybe all that stuff really means something as many have put together very nicely.   Maybe it was all just the dope.    Quaithe and Mel?   Good grief, all that beware of and born of--what's the point?   It was clear to me on the 1st read that Dany has some greater destiny than being her bother's victim.    She's a queen and she's got dragons.   Some wicked bad destruction is in the little queen's hands.  I don't know why we need Quaithe to pop in for a visit to tell her the dragons know what they are and make Dany question her own identity.  Even I know who Dany is and I never doubted Dany knows who she is.   Mirri Maz Dur liked to spout off at Dany, too.  She also had an axe to grind.   Jon?   Yah, Jon could use a friend like Quaithe to help him sort things out.    Poor guy only had a Red Priestess to give her confusing warnings that she may not even understand.   It's like reading most of Patchface--WTH?    Jon isn't a particularly psychic sensitive.    How is he supposed to make sense of Mel's confusing predictions?  More importantly, how am I?   Does anyone trust anything that comes out of Moqorro's mouth?   Why would he be more reliable than Melisandre?   The dragon must have 3 heads--duh, Dany's got 3 dragons.   Do I really need more than that?  

 ASOIAF makes a great deal of sense to me without knowing or understanding all the literary devices some folks find so important.   The story is full to the brim with subtlety and overt declarations.   I don't think and never have thought that Quaithe was Dany's friend, where maybe Mel actually will have a chance to be Jon's friend.   The great prophecies of both Patchface and the Ghost of High Heart are nice, but gads, a little clarity would have gone much further in my book.  I don't feel particularly stupid for not picking up on all the predictions of the Red Wedding.   Even if I had, it still would have been an awful thing to read, and is.   It's not hard to form ideas about the progression of ASOIAF without the finer nuances of symbolism, foreshadowing and this prophecy GRRM warns everyone not to trust any way.   Why is prophecy such a big deal among readers?   

 

:agree:

I mean, I’m not complaining, nor am I dissing anything. The symbolism and foreshadowing and clues-hidden-in-plain-sight are awesome, and a treat, and mostly helpful. I see those as “bonus clues”. They won’t lead  you astray, and very often they provide [much needed] extra info. That said, I don’t believe for a second that they’re absolutely necessary for the reader to solve “mystery X (where X = everything and anything under the sun). 

ps: I never thought Quaithe was anything but a true friend to Dany. In fact, as of the end of ADwD, she may be Dany’s sole true friend (apart from Missandei). Then again, I’m on the (small?) camp that believes Quaithe is Ashara Dayne. :dunno:

GoHH & Patches

I love the GoHH, I don’t much care for Patchface. I thought her predictions were. spot on (lots of this comes from 2nd and third reads), but Patchface? Fuck knows. And I never really felt that invested in the character to read and reread and listen again and again and again. I have read some good ideas/theories. And kinda spooky that Mel basically fears him. 

I had more but sort of brain dead so all gone. 

ETA: where is @Faera? She might like this thread... :)

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Another thing which makes me suspect of prophesies is that it reinforces the Game of Thrones.

The books are written showing the Games of Thrones, us vs them, that one person/house is somehow more special than others is a bad thing. The chapters are the names of the characters and only their first names. The POVs are mostly high-born, but they’re somehow disenfranchised. We’re supposed to read them as individuals, not as a part of a tribe. That we’ve been so immersed into these deep, tribalistic conflicts of Westeros only make sense if we’re to see the characters—as individuals—attempt to overcome them or reinforce them for selfish reasons when times become the most critical.

That there’s some messiah, a savior, who will magically swoop in and fix everything for everyone, that undermines all of this. It means one person or one family is more special than the others which reinforces tribalism and justifies the Game of Thrones. It makes the other characters just lesser. An easy fix absolves too many people of their responsibility for the condition of their world. Why bother trying to do the right thing if there's a magic fix which will come in the nick of time?

 

Edited by Lollygag

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Prophecy is going to guide Dany and create expectations in the reader.

Prophecy will lead Dany to think the three heads of the dragon are those who second life Drogon. Drogo is one, Euron will be the second, and Euron's impact on Drogon having second lifed him will be to turn him into the Stone Beast. The Stone Beast will be a foul monster and useless as a weapon.

Dany will need her dragon back, seemingly as the only way to save the world against the Others, and so will need a new person to second life the dragon, a third head, so that she may wake her dragon from stone. To second life a dragon a person will need to sacrifice their child, a child of dragon blood (Rhaego for Drogo, Euron will sacrifice a child with Arianne).

So prophecy will guide Dany, thinking she has to get pregnant to a man with as much dragon blood as possible so that they can sacrifice the child and the father can die and second life the dragon and wake it from stone. And the readers knowing what we know will expect Jon is going to have to be the eventually father. And so it will happen.

And then comes the horrible dilemma, prophecy and reality all seems to agree that the child must be sacrificed to save the world. Prince that was promised to wake dragons from stone, the dragon must have three heads, three mounts you must ride - Drogo, Euron, Jon.

This dilemma is going to be in the back of the reader's mind probably soon after Euron second lifes Drogon and the Stone Beast comes into being. Readers will realise/fear/theorise what happened as Dany will, and the implication will begin to form, that the story is headed to a place where Jon and Dany are going to have to sacrifice their child to save the world.

That's what GRRM wants, that's the purpose of including prophecy, to make something all but inevitable in the minds of the reader so that he can then surprise by subverting it. Almost all the prophecies are for this point, AA, TPTWP, Dragon has three heads, MMD's not a prophesy that is a prophecy and most the HOTU's visions.

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4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Prophecies are definitely interesting and they add a different dimension. But yes, readers like the characters should take them with a grain of salt. 

My personal favorite thing about the prophecies is watching the characters try to make them work or make sense of them. We see it with Mel's ritual on Dragonstone, the burning of the Seven, the sword in the Mother's breast, salt and smoke, using glamours and whatever she sees in the fires that fit her interpretations and then her ignoring what the flames insist on showing her. 

And we have Cersei who by trying to thwart what Maggy the Frog told her all those years ago has created a giant mess for herself. Her hatred of Tyrion, her paranoia that he will some day kill her, everything she did to bring down Margaery that resulted in her being imprisoned and her walk of atonement. 

Prophecies have such an ugly side. The people who make them know a thing or two about magic. They are the real deal or play at pretend or let their opinions cloud their better judgement. It's a mess.

I agree the prophecies have certainly created more than 1 mess for more than 1 character.   Off the top of my head, we've at the very least lost the best hope for the Baratheon future in the loss of Edric Storm.   Dammit.   Cersei's almost causing her prophecy to come true.   But step away from Maggy's words -- ignore it's prophecy, like I did.   I saw an old woman grown weary of this brat and her friends.  The prophecy was supposed to scare Cersei.   And it did.   Just ask down the well.  Are Maggy's words less powerful or interesting if they aren't prophecy?   

Now that you shine the light on it, it is fun to watch the characters try to work prophecy out.   

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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hey CF! Well said, as usual. :)

Will get back to this further down. 

Yeah! Where is that thread of yours? Let’s bring it back, that was an interesting convo, like @The Fattest Leech‘s one on the NW vows. 

:agree:

I mean, I’m not complaining, nor am I dissing anything. The symbolism and foreshadowing and clues-hidden-in-plain-sight are awesome, and a treat, and mostly helpful. I see those as “bonus clues”. They won’t lead  you astray, and very often they provide [much needed] extra info. That said, I don’t believe for a second that they’re absolutely necessary for the reader to solve “mystery X (where X = everything and anything under the sun). 

ps: I never thought Quaithe was anything but a true friend to Dany. In fact, as of the end of ADwD, she may be Dany’s sole true friend (apart from Missandei). Then again, I’m on the (small?) camp that believes Quaithe is Ashara Dayne. :dunno:

GoHH & Patches

I love the GoHH, I don’t much care for Patchface. I thought her predictions were. spot on (lots of this comes from 2nd and third reads), but Patchface? Fuck knows. And I never really felt that invested in the character to read and reread and listen again and again and again. I have read some good ideas/theories. And kinda spooky that Mel basically fears him. 

I had more but sort of brain dead so all gone. 

ETA: where is @Faera? She might like this thread... :)

 

It's so good to see you @kissdbyfire...thanks for your understanding of the equanimity I really was trying to bring in.    I'm not attempting to slight the importance of symbolism, foreshadowing or prophecy.   I just think we can put most of the story together without it.  We are instructed in the story and externally by the author not to embrace prophecy wholeheartedly.    I don't understand why so many do and I seem to get by without buying into any of it.   I think I'm trying to examine what I'm really missing, if anything at all.   Always eager for your resurrected brain matter should you recall the rest of your thoughts.   

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Another thing which makes me suspect of prophesies is that it reinforces the Game of Thrones.

The books are written showing the Games of Thrones, us vs them, that one person/house is somehow more special than others is a bad thing. The chapters are the names of the characters and only their first names. The POVs are mostly high-born, but they’re somehow disenfranchised. We’re supposed to read them as individuals, not as a part of a tribe. That we’ve been so immersed into these deep, tribalistic conflicts of Westeros only make sense if we’re to see the characters—as individuals—attempt to overcome them or reinforce them for selfish reasons when times become the most critical.

That there’s some messiah, a savior, who will magically swoop in and fix everything for everyone, that undermines all of this. It means one person or one family is more special than the others which reinforces tribalism and justifies the Game of Thrones. It makes the other characters just lesser. An easy fix absolves too many people of their responsibility for the condition of their world. Why bother trying to do the right thing if there's a magic fix which will come in the nick of time?

 

Yah, that whole "blessed" among the common screws things up in our own world, too.   

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Prophecy is going to guide Dany and create expectations in the reader.

Prophecy will lead Dany to think the three heads of the dragon are those who second life Drogon. Drogo is one, Euron will be the second, and Euron's impact on Drogon having second lifed him will be to turn him into the Stone Beast. The Stone Beast will be a foul monster and useless as a weapon.

Dany will need her dragon back, seemingly as the only way to save the world against the Others, and so will need a new person to second life the dragon, a third head, so that she may wake her dragon from stone. To second life a dragon a person will need to sacrifice their child, a child of dragon blood (Rhaego for Drogo, Euron will sacrifice a child with Arianne).

So prophecy will guide Dany, thinking she has to get pregnant to a man with as much dragon blood as possible so that they can sacrifice the child and the father can die and second life the dragon and wake it from stone. And the readers knowing what we know will expect Jon is going to have to be the eventually father. And so it will happen.

And then comes the horrible dilemma, prophecy and reality all seems to agree that the child must be sacrificed to save the world. Prince that was promised to wake dragons from stone, the dragon must have three heads, three mounts you must ride - Drogo, Euron, Jon.

This dilemma is going to be in the back of the reader's mind probably soon after Euron second lifes Drogon and the Stone Beast comes into being. Readers will realise/fear/theorise what happened as Dany will, and the implication will begin to form, that the story is headed to a place where Jon and Dany are going to have to sacrifice their child to save the world.

That's what GRRM wants, that's the purpose of including prophecy, to make something all but inevitable in the minds of the reader so that he can then surprise by subverting it. Almost all the prophecies are for this point, AA, TPTWP, Dragon has three heads, MMD's not a prophesy that is a prophecy and most the HOTU's visions.

Ah, thanks, @chrisdaw.  I know you are an avid student of the prophecies.  Your examples are appreciated, if not understood.   I know most of the big "prophecies" around Dany.   Where did you get babies out of any of it?   I'm not being sarcastic, Ser.   I've already got 3 dragons with heads.   Why do we need 3 more heads?   Could any "human" be more important than dragons?   

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5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think we can dismiss that some amount of the prophecies will be fulfilled, but we can be reasonably sure that those that are will be fulfilled in ways that are unexpected, and not necessarily straight forward.

OK, but I don't think I even understood that some of the prophecies were actually prophecy.   I thought Mirri was just really ticked off at the entire world and took it all out on Dany.   I thought Maggy the Frog was just trying to scare Cersei.  For a long time I thought Mel was playing her own game of thrones, but now I understand that she doesn't really understand what she's doing.   I thought the visions with the warlocks were hallucinations.  Ghost of High Heart?   Rhaegar & Aemon?  Patchface?  Quaithe?  I mean Dany is obviously critical to the unfolding of pretty much everything.   Do we need to understand all this stuff to get that? 

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45 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I agree the prophecies have certainly created more than 1 mess for more than 1 character.   Off the top of my head, we've at the very least lost the best hope for the Baratheon future in the loss of Edric Storm.   Dammit.   Cersei's almost causing her prophecy to come true.   But step away from Maggy's words -- ignore it's prophecy, like I did.   I saw an old woman grown weary of this brat and her friends.  The prophecy was supposed to scare Cersei.   And it did.   Just ask down the well.  Are Maggy's words less powerful or interesting if they aren't prophecy?   

Now that you shine the light on it, it is fun to watch the characters try to work prophecy out.   

Edric will return at some point, I'm sure. Although, I wouldn't shed a tear if the Baratheon line went bye bye. 

To your question, the thing with the prophecies is that we seem to find out about them when the prophecy has been fulfilled or being fulfilled. Dany hatches the dragons, we find out about Azor Ahai the following book. Cersei has her fortune told when she was ten, we find out about it only after Tyrion has escaped King's Landing. There's the GoHH with her super accurate visions/dreams. We have Maester Aemon telling Sam about his brother's dream that he must have had some 80 years prior but that seems very much relevant to what's going on now in Westeros. 

I think Maggy's words would still be interesting even if she was messing with Cersei because of the way Cersei is handling all of that. Which is very badly. Girl twisted herself in knots for everything to blow up in her face. 

I know you've read F&B, because I saw a couple of your posts. There's a prophecy in there that took me completely by surprise. 

"When the hammer shall fall upon the dragon, a new king shall rise, and none shall stand before him."

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I read it right. This prophecy was spoken in 130 AC and came to pass in 283 AC, it would seem. 

Honestly, most of the prophecies, I don't think we are meant to understand them or know what they mean, just like the characters. No one has the same answer for what happened in the HotU or Quaithe's warnings to Dany.

I tend to put more stock in people's dreams in the series than say what Mel sees in her flames and chooses to interpret in a way that suits her purpose.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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