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Platypus Rex

Poll: Did Jojen Die Off-Page in DANCE?

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Jojen is alive and well and depressed.

All the same, someone should market Jojenpaste as a real-world toothpaste.  Box reads: "Made from real crannogmen."

Would the toothpaste be green? I'm not sure that would sell...:ack:

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:33 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Bran is confirmed for at least one more POV

I would not say this.  At least, GRRM himself has not "confirmed" it.  Some people have played detectives, and "confirmed" it to their own satisfaction, by examining a placeholder page in a GRRM manuscript for DANCE.  But if WINDS is released, and it does not contain a Bran chapter, they will be unable to say that GRRM has lied to them.  This page, after all, was never addressed to them, or to us.

Possibly GRRM wrote the Bran chapter, decided to move it earlier into the book, and then forgot to revise the placeholder page (obviously, revising the page would not have a priority - it was just a "note to self" never meant for publication).  Or possibly he changed his mind about writing that planned chapter, and decided to leave things as they are.

Don't get me wrong.  I expect to see Bran chapters in WINDS.  And perhaps that placeholder page counts as a bit of evidence supporting my opinion.  But I like to separate my own opinions from that which has actually been confirmed by GRRM.

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Would the toothpaste be green? I'm not sure that would sell...:ack:

 

It wouldn't matter as long as you could convince people that it tasted like peppermint and cinnamon and your mother's last kiss by the third try.

I can see the commercial now, though, "Gets your teeth a healthy moss green and makes them harder than a lizard-lion's hide!"

Edited by Three-Fingered Pete
errata

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7 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

If there's a George merch outlet, and they don't have this, it's a missed opportunity.  Find who does the drugstore generic toothpaste and have them slap the Reed emblem on it.  Sold.

I'd buy...

 

 

 

If it's true.

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GRRM tells us that Jojen spends time staring out of the cave, implying Jojen wants to be elsewhere. I personally think Jojen and Meera are missing because they are seriously exploring how far the underground river goes. If they are ever going to leave the cave that is the only way.

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We're shown repeatedly that Jojen's green dreams see true but interpreting that truth is far harder and, like Mel's visions, are prone to user error.

The most likely reason for Jojen's depression is a combination of his weakness, confinement underground and belief that his fate is inescapable.  What manner of fate he foresaw for himself is unknown but based on previous misinterpretations is unlikely to be the one that occurs.  How wrong his death interpretation is (or turns out to be, we having no idea whether anything has happened to him at all) in terms of time, place and manner is anywhere on a sliding scale from dead wrong (Bran not being killed by Reek) to right in point of fact but unclear on any useful detail for prediction (the sea coming to WF to claim Alebelly, Mikken and Septon Chayle leading to Alebelly's desperately wrongheaded refusal to bathe).

Perhaps he foresaw he would die beyond the Wall once he had delivered Bran to the three eyed crow.  Perhaps he was right, perhaps he'll turn out to be wrong as he was with Bran.  Whether he assumes he will waste away in that cave or die of some other cause or even knows of and accepts his audience-assigned sacrificial role is completely unknown.  Given it's not even clear that he is even missing at this point it's a little early to assume he's been butchered and eaten by the unwitting Bran, however ghoulishly appealing or thematically rewarding that fate may seem to be.

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Yes. (Not entirely sure, but I lean towards it. There are many hints, it would fit thematically imo with the increasing presence of cannibalism in the story, he eventually stops saying "This is not the day I die", the oddly specific text passage of Jojen in/on a "bole"...)

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7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The most likely reason for Jojen's depression is a combination of his weakness, confinement underground and belief that his fate is inescapable.  What manner of fate he foresaw for himself is unknown but based on previous misinterpretations is unlikely to be the one that occurs

If (IF!) the Children are dream- summoning the Reeds to die so as to serve as royal jelly paste for Bran to grow godlike from....

Then the dreams don't represent any kind of true fateful prophecy but are simply the WISHES of the tree people made manifest in Jojen's noggin.   So his feeling of it being inevitable is just to pacify him like a spider's bite pacifies the victim  (let's say it does this- - I'm not a biologist).

All someone has to do to change Jojen's "locked-in destiny" is to slap him and get him to snap out of the funk the tree broadcasts have put him in, and if he starts resisting the children's wishes for him as one would resist a false god then his death day will come and go with him still breathing just fine.

Not that I want to waste the Bloodraven plotline on this "fun" twist that adds nothing to the development of our greenseers and poops on the Children a bit.

 

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15 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

like a spider's bite pacifies the victim

It so doesn’t. Trust me. :D

 

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17 hours ago, bent branch said:

GRRM tells us that Jojen spends time staring out of the cave, implying Jojen wants to be elsewhere. I personally think Jojen and Meera are missing because they are seriously exploring how far the underground river goes. If they are ever going to leave the cave that is the only way.

This. I even wrote a long-winded essay about the possibility about the underground river leading to Gorne's Way and that Jojen has dreamed of an underground river at least since the night they met Sam at the Nightfort. I put my money on him living long enough to see he was right.

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Jojen and Meera aren’t exactly “missing.” I suppose technically they are since they aren’t in the “room” they share with Bran when he gets back. But they like to wander, to say they are missing is pretty misleading

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Yes - the sacrifice of the elk-friend is the telling clue (quoted somewhere in this thread), and I don't think we will ever get any further confirmation other than something along the lines "Jojen has fulfilled his destiny" from Meera or Bran . And if you believe that the Cranogmen have some CoTF blood in them, and that the Greenseers have more than a drop of it, then Jojen died at home...

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The characterisation of Bloodraven also lends greatly to Jojen paste. It started as Bloodraven being an alleged sorcerer who killed his half brother in a war. Kinslaying, a Westeros taboo, but it occurred under very understandable circumstances.

Then we get it that he tricked an enemy to come peacefully under his protection, and had his fucking head chopped off. Another Westeros taboo, murdering a guest beneath one's own roof. And no mitigating circumstances, it is simple, Bloodraven just gives no fucks. Or in the man's own words,

Quote

Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

Killing a guest beneath one's own roof for the greater good is precisely what Jojen paste alleges Bloodraven is doing.

And it goes deeper.

The Rat Cook is mentioned six times in Bran chapters and in a Theon chapter when Manderly requests it in that incident. One time Bran thinks he sees the Rat Cook. The end purpose of the Rat Cook story is not simply Manderly's pie revenge or even the Freys, the Rat Cook is a Bran story, for Bran's arc.

Quote

Once the direwolf bolted through a dark door and returned a moment later with a grey rat between his teeth. The Rat Cook, Bran thought, but it was the wrong color, and only as big as a cat. The RatCook was white, and almost as huge as a sow . . .

Rat Cook is white GRRM wants us  to know. White rats often have red eyes. Bloodraven.

The Rat Cook's real crime as Old Nan tells it,

Quote

"It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

is what Bloodraven did to Aenys. And what Jojen paste proposes Bloodraven did to Jojen.

The punishment for the Rat Cook is that he was turned into a rat and only able to eat his own offspring.

Blodoraven was Hand and thus responsible for the realm and KL during the Great Spring Sickness.

Quote

"You would not know the city since the spring. The fires changed it. A quarter of the houses gone, and another quarter empty. The rats are gone as well. That is the queerest thing. I never thought to see a city without rats."

When the city had no rats. Why it had no rats is because Bloodraven skinchanged them, en masse, and got rid of them, to try and stop the sickness spreading.

Bloodraven skinchanges rats. A thousand eyes and one.

And like Varamyr became the wolf he skinchanged when he died, the Rat Cook's curse probably foreshadows Bloodraven becoming a rat in his second life.

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I certainly felt this was what the author wanted us to believe when reading it, but whether it turns out to be true or not I don't know.

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On 2/6/2019 at 4:54 PM, chrisdaw said:

Then we get it that he tricked an enemy to come peacefully under his protection, and had his fucking head chopped off.

Bran calls Bloodraven "the whisperer in darkness" which is the name of a Lovecraft story The Whisperer in Darkness.   In that story a man named Akeley has discovered aliens who live in a cave near his house, and he sends letters to the protagonist Wilmarth informing him of these aliens, and reports that the aliens and their human spies are trying to kill him, and to prove they are real he sends a recording of them (on this recording Bran is listed amonst the Old Gods such as Cthulhu, and the the Black Goat)  and a black stone artifact of theirs (that looks like a glass candle). 

Unbeknownst to Wilmarth, the aliens do kill Akeley, and put his brain in a jar and make a mechanical replica of Akeley that they control (very similar to both Bloodraven and Doran Martell in how it is described: in a wheelchair huge gouty feet, blanket in his lap).  The aliens send a letter to Wilmarth to lure him into coming to a remote location by promising him safe passage.  But their plan is to recover the artifact and kill him and put his brain in a jar as well. 

 

This leads me to think that Bloodraven is dead, that the CoTF/weirwood is animating his corpse as a trap for Bran.  A large part of the plot of Whisperer is that the aliens have spies working for them, and that they regularly intercept messages and forge letters and disrupt communication.  In Bran's chapters we learn that all the ravens all have CoTF in them--meaning that all the Maesters' ravens are spys, and the ravens are full of secrets.

 

Quote

Sometimes the sound of song would drift up from someplace far below. The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.

The CoTF were singing a song that the ravens understood, and it made them peck at Bran's skin, in the texts the raven's only peck at food or when they think you have food--with the implication that Bran is food.  The cave is littered with bones, and Bloodraven and the CoTF are getting drained of blood.  Just like the Undying wanted to drain Dany's blood.

I get a real horror story vibe from Bloodraven's cave.

 

I think the foreshadowing of Jojen's death was quite strong.  Jojen is a crannogmen who has the blood of the CoTF and he has "moss green eyes"

"Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed."

He is a sickly child who has been marked by the gods, and those thus marked do not have long lives, because I think the trees want them to hurry up and get in their belly.

. . .

"Today is not the day I die."

. . .

"The things I see in green dreams can't be changed."

. . .

"My task was to get you here. My part in this is done."

. . .

Bran's eyes widened. "They're going to kill me?"
"No," Meera said. "Jojen, you're scaring him."
"He is not the one who needs to be afraid."
. . .

"He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."

. . .

"their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty."

 

And the thread that @Lost Melnibonean posted was very good.  The whole Jojen in a wooden bole/bowl play on words was great.

 

Lastly, Mira is a star in the neck of the constellation Cetus, the sea monster.  Meera gets eaten by the sea monster.

 

I vote Yes on Jojen paste. 

 

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1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

This leads me to think that Bloodraven is dead,

Bloodraven having been given all this characterisation isn't going to be a puppet. GRRM perhaps lifted the mechanical puppet idea and morphed it into skinchanging into other humans, as Bran does and Bloodraven probably does too.

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