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Small Questions v. 10106

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15 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

And I appreciate your and Lord Varys answers! Doesn't make sense for him to not know, I guess, but for some reason that was the impression I got from the book.

I think the chances are slightly higher that he does know, but it is really hard to figure out. If he doesn't know then this reflects very poorly on him and the actual authority he has over his people. In fact, it could be a sign that he himself goes down the road Alester Florent took once Melisandre no longer needs him...

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On 3/4/2019 at 2:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

 

I think I've discussed that rather in-depth with Ran sometime ago (which was mainly about the question whether Mance is still Stannis' man or rather Jon's now that Stannis has handed him over to him in the guise of Rattleshirt). I maintain that Stannis must know, and that his knowledge of that is also the reason why he makes a gift of Rattleshirt to Jon. He wants the man close to Jon who, in a sense, convinced him to spare Mance's life, because he came to the conclusion Mance knows stuff about the Others that is going to help them in the future.

There is also very little reason to assume that Stannis would suffer scum like Rattleshirt at his councils, not even as a quiet attendant. Stannis does not like to surround himself with morons. He may have done that to please Mel, but surely he must have realized that Rattleshirt is suddenly completely different than he used to be assuming him being at those councils actually had a function - meaning that 'Rattleshirt' advised them on wildlings and other things.

I fully agree. It would be very out of character to have Rattleshirt in his councils, even he spared his life. Who is Rattleshirt? he is not only scum, but a nobody scum. He is not highly regarded even among the Free Folk.

 

On 3/4/2019 at 2:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Mel would actually deceive Stannis about something as, well, important such as this and then later basically undo the glamor and allow Mance to go down south in his real shape is, quite frankly, very weird if we assume that Stannis does not know. He is likely not going to be very pleased where he to find out that Mel (and at least Godry Farring) betrayed him. Also, 'Mance' seems to imply that a number of people were involved in the deception when Godry cuts him off. His last word is 'they'. It would be very odd if Stannis himself wasn't a part of this 'they'.

If he was, then Stannis is even less in control of his own court and people than all the heavy symbolism about the queen's men and the hold Melisandre has over him implies.

There is another piece of evidence that more people knew about the switch. When we start ADWD we learn that Val tried to escape, attempted to kill his guardians and finally begged Stannis to spare Mance's life, even promising to wed a "kneeler". When Stannis burns "Mance", she stays besides him quietly and acts meekly afterwards, never attempting to escape again and she keeps faith overall. The implications are obvious. Val was in the known.  She may have even told Tormund that Mance is alive, explaining his lack of surprise during the reading of the Pink Letter.

Of course, Mel may have convinced Val and still keep the thing out of Stannis knowledge, but with so many people knowing stuff, things get dangerous.

 

On 3/4/2019 at 2:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

But there are hints that Stannis might indeed not know. 'Mance' only curses Melisandre and not Stannis when he curses in his cage, Mel is actually relieved when Jon puts 'Mance' out of his misery, unlike Stannis (but perhaps Mel never told Stannis how strongly she would feel the fire while upholding the glamor), but this is really inconclusive.

It is possible that Stannis approved and Mel did the dirty work, so "Mance" didn't know anything, which is actually implied in the scene.

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4 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

She may have even told Tormund that Mance is alive, explaining his lack of surprise during the reading of the Pink Letter.

“Har. That’s buggered, and no mistake. What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?”

Maybe he is in on it, maybe not. I think not, but too early to tell.

But he is not surprised because he doesn’t believe Ramsay has Mance in a cage, since everyone at CB saw “Mance” burn.

Also supporting the idea that Stannis knows is when Mance, still glamored as Rattleshirt, fights Jon in the yard:

Stannis burned the wrong man.
“No.” The wildling grinned at him through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. “He burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. We all do what we have to do, Snow. Even kings.”

 

 

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

I fully agree. It would be very out of character to have Rattleshirt in his councils, even he spared his life. Who is Rattleshirt? he is not only scum, but a nobody scum. He is not highly regarded even among the Free Folk.

Well, to be sure, Stannis could mistake a nobody for a somebody among the wildlings. And he cannot have been that insignificant that Ygritte was part of his band.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

There is another piece of evidence that more people knew about the switch. When we start ADWD we learn that Val tried to escape, attempted to kill his guardians and finally begged Stannis to spare Mance's life, even promising to wed a "kneeler". When Stannis burns "Mance", she stays besides him quietly and acts meekly afterwards, never attempting to escape again and she keeps faith overall. The implications are obvious. Val was in the known.  She may have even told Tormund that Mance is alive, explaining his lack of surprise during the reading of the Pink Letter.

The latter may not be the case, but the former most definitely. And if that happened, then Mance, Val, Stannis, and Mel may have talked about that thing together at a point.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

It is possible that Stannis approved and Mel did the dirty work, so "Mance" didn't know anything, which is actually implied in the scene.

Yeah, that's not unlikely. One assumes that Rattleshirt was fooled into believing that Mel were to save him from Stannis' wrath or something along those lines when she convinced him to come out - assuming he actually knew he were to actually look like Mance when Mel was through with whatever she did to him.

53 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Stannis burned the wrong man.
“No.” The wildling grinned at him through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. “He burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. We all do what we have to do, Snow. Even kings.”

Oh, yeah, that one really settles it. And I think that was the one I based the original idea on that Stannis must know the truth during one of the ADwD rereads.

Mance essentially confirms he that Stannis was in the know and actually followed Jon's argument that 'the law ends at the Wall' without actually publicly admitting it. And the way things went most likely was that Stannis privately confessed to Mel that he agreed with Jon but couldn't possibly make such an exception, and then Mel came up with the glamor suggestion.

The fact that Stannis himself says he talked to Mance and actually was interested in what he had to say also implies that he was interested in him. Whereas we cannot really be sure that Mel would have given a fig about Mance if Stannis hadn't wanted to keep him alive. 

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7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Stannis burned the wrong man.
“No.” The wildling grinned at him through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. “He burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. We all do what we have to do, Snow. Even kings.”

Oh! This is such a duh moment from me. I completely forgot this scene :dunce: So yeah this makes more sense, that he knows.

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Quick Question: About how thick is the Wall? Is 55 feet or ~18 meters reasonable?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Quick Question: About how thick is the Wall? Is 55 feet or ~18 meters reasonable?

I don’t remember if that’s ever stated... I do remember it’s thicker at the base, and by the descriptions of characters walking through the tunnel at CB I’d say it’s a lot thicker than 18m.

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Quick Question: About how thick is the Wall? Is 55 feet or ~18 meters reasonable?

 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember if that’s ever stated... I do remember it’s thicker at the base, and by the descriptions of characters walking through the tunnel at CB I’d say it’s a lot thicker than 18m.

The only quotes I could find in a quick search is that AGOT Tyrion 3 states that the top of the Wall was "wider than the kingsroad often was".

ACOK, Jon 5 states "The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes."

AGOT Jon 3 says "His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast"

The tunnel through the Wall, at least at Castle Black, is not a straight tunnel, but instead had quite a few turns, which makes it longer than the Wall itself is thick.

All in all, with our current info we cannot say. But I did find the thickness stated for some other structures, which might be useful to you in some way? The outer wall of the Great Pyramid of Meereen is 30 feet thick, while the walls of SE are 40 feet at the most narrow place, and near 80 feet thick at the seaward face.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Quick Question: About how thick is the Wall? Is 55 feet or ~18 meters reasonable?

The only thing we have as far as I remember is this;

His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast.  (Jon III, AGOT 19)

I think it might make it less than 18 m

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Is House Errol a homage to Errol Flynn? Seems like GRRM is of an age that he would have watched Flynn's swashbuckling movies as a kid.

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember if that’s ever stated... I do remember it’s thicker at the base, and by the descriptions of characters walking through the tunnel at CB I’d say it’s a lot thicker than 18m.

 

8 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

The only quotes I could find in a quick search is that AGOT Tyrion 3 states that the top of the Wall was "wider than the kingsroad often was".

ACOK, Jon 5 states "The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes."

AGOT Jon 3 says "His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast"

The tunnel through the Wall, at least at Castle Black, is not a straight tunnel, but instead had quite a few turns, which makes it longer than the Wall itself is thick.

All in all, with our current info we cannot say. But I did find the thickness stated for some other structures, which might be useful to you in some way? The outer wall of the Great Pyramid of Meereen is 30 feet thick, while the walls of SE are 40 feet at the most narrow place, and near 80 feet thick at the seaward face.

 

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The only thing we have as far as I remember is this;

His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast.  (Jon III, AGOT 19)

I think it might make it less than 18 m

Thanks.

My weird imagination is telling me The Wall is 300 miles long of this thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument

55 feet wide at the base, 550 feet height = 1:10 width:height ratio

Is a "1:10 width:height ratio" reasonable for the Wall? 

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On 3/5/2019 at 10:00 AM, kissdbyfire said:

“Har. That’s buggered, and no mistake. What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?”

Maybe he is in on it, maybe not. I think not, but too early to tell.

But he is not surprised because he doesn’t believe Ramsay has Mance in a cage, since everyone at CB saw “Mance” burn.

Also supporting the idea that Stannis knows is when Mance, still glamored as Rattleshirt, fights Jon in the yard:

Stannis burned the wrong man.
“No.” The wildling grinned at him through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. “He burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. We all do what we have to do, Snow. Even kings.”

I am also reminded of Stannis's original statement of his intention to Jon, which Melisandre was present for:

"I mean to. I'll burn him, and the north will see how I deal with turncloaks and traitors. I have other men to lead the wildlings. And I have Rayder's son, do not forget. Once the father dies, his whelp will be the King-Beyond-the-Wall."

- ADWD: Jon I

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

- ADWD: Jon XIII

Also, it would be interesting to know whether Asha's POV  here is actually paraphrasing something Stannis said:

Asha Greyjoy rode in the baggage train, in a covered wayn with two huge iron-rimmed wheels, fettered at wrist and ankle and watched over day and night by a She-Bear who snored worse than any man. His Grace King Stannis was taking no chances on his prize escaping captivity. He meant to carry her to Winterfell, to display her there in chains for the lords of the north to see, the kraken's daughter bound and broken, proof of his power.

- ADWD: The King's Prize

Stannis, Theon, and Asha were all in the same place not far from Winterfell by the end of ADWD, and Mance was at Winterfell last time we saw him back in ADWD: Theon I. That was eleven chapters before Theon and Jeyne show up at Stannis's camp in ADWD: The Sacrifice with Tycho Nestoris, who had all just come from Winterfell. So between them they have all the knowledge contained in the Pink Letter.

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Where did Petyr Baelish dagger come from? Is it really old? and does he still have it? I don't know where it went to after Game. 

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7 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

Where did Petyr Baelish dagger come from? Is it really old? and does he still have it? I don't know where it went to after Game. 

We don't know where it came from.

The dagger was, is Ned's mind, proof of the assasination attempt on Bran. So he kept it. He is last described as having it in Eddard 13, carrying it at his waist. Although not explicitly stated, Baelish later uses the dagger Ned carries at his waist to arrest him. Presumably, it is the Valyrian steel daggar, meaning Baelish likely has it now himself. 

 

The dagger is, as far as I am aware, not described as appearing anymore later on. Possibly Baelish still carries it around and uses it on a daily basis, perhaps he has it hidden away. But at least our most recent information tells us that most likely Baelish took possession of it during Ned's fall in KL.

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Petyr uses a dagger while eating pomegranates at the "Drearfort" in ASOS. It's unknown if this is the Valyrian steel blade from AGOT. If it is, Sansa might not recognize it as being special since Jaime describes it as being plain in ACOK.

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9 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

Where did Petyr Baelish dagger come from? Is it really old? and does he still have it? I don't know where it went to after Game. 

I think he's been wearing the dagger since AGoT. 

This is from Clash of Kings;

"That's a handsome knife as well."

"Is it?" There was mischief in Littlefinger's eyes. He drew the knew and glanced at it casually, as if he had never seen it before. "Valyrian steel, and a dragonbone hilt. A trifle plain, though. It's yours, if you would like it." (Tyrion IV, ACoK 17)

Only if you'll do the same for me, Tyrion thought, glancing at the dagger sheathed at Littlefinger's hip. (Tyrion VII, ACoK 29)

When the dagger is sheathed, no one knows it's Valyrian steel because the dragonbone hilt gives it a deceiving look. 

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. "Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain." (Sansa IV, ASoS 59)


And this in AFFC during the fake confrontation with Lyn Corbray;

Candlight rippled along the smoke-grey steel of Corbray's blade, so dark it put Sansa in mind of Ice, her father's greatsword. "Your apple-eater holds a blade. Tell him to give it to you, or draw that dagger." (Alayne I, AFfC 23)

 

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1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Do we know who knighted Rhaegar? (I don't have the books on hand.)

Good question, I don't believe we have been told.

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