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Please explain Ramsay and the Pink Letter.

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It seems that the majority of readers believe that Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter. I don't buy it, I think Stannis was the main architect with some input from Mance, but I would like to leave who aside for the purpose of this debate. I'm more interested in testing the Ramsay Theory.

Unfortunately the Ramsay Theory, though widely accepted, does not exist in any unified form, but rather as a separate set of objections to other potential authors. The letter is signed, Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell, so some might argue that the burden of proof is on the other theories, and I accept that. But the act of Ramsay writing the letter still needs to fit into a coherent narrative, a logical sequence of events, book-ended by Theon's leap from the wall of Winterfell and the arrival of the Pink Letter at Castle Black.

The Ramsay Theory should propose an explanation for the following:

1. Ramsay's reaction to the escape of Theon and Jeyne. Does he hunt them or stay in Winterfell?

2. How there was Seven Days of Battle when Stannis' army was losing ever-mounting numbers to cold and hunger.

3. What happened in the battle with Stannis.

4. What happened with Mance.

5. How Ramsay came to have Stannis' magic sword.

6. When Ramsay wrote the letter.

7. What Ramsay expected the letter to achieve and why the letter was the best way of achieving that goal.

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

9. Why Ramsay did not get the signatures of the northern lords.

10. What Ramsay thought about the fact that Jon would know his bride is not Arya.

Like all good theories, the Ramsay Theory should be supported by relevant citation from the text where possible, including any instances of foreshadowing.

So please, explain it to me in detail, if you can.

 

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It is really simple and doesn't need much explaining, as who wrote the letter is never doubted in the text and there's no sensible reason to attribute the letter to anyone else.

Ramsay got Mance or one of the Spearwives and questioned them and realised Jon fucked him and picked up some peripheral information too. In a huff he went and immediately wrote a very angry letter to Jon, some of what he says in it is true, some of it is embellishment or things he assumes has or will happen, and some of it he pulls out of his ass, all of it an act of puffing out his chest and trying to intimidate Jon.

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Oooo I never thoughted about #10. Good job. Jon would of told the world that fArya is not Arya, instead doing that stupid thing that got him killed

 

#11 The 6 Charlie Angels were skinned, plenty of skin to send along with the letter

#12 Why the smudge of wax instead of the Bolton Seal Wax

#13 Wasn't Theon, aka Reek, in Stannis' custody at CV? Why would Ramsay want 'Reek' back if he claimed victory over Stannis and CV?

I call BS on Ramsay writing the Pink Letter too. It was Mel the entire time.

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It doesn't matter to Ramsay that Jon is one of the few people alive who would know the real Arya and be able to undo the false marriage?

 

30 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

This is the Ramsay motive to write.  His expertise as a hunter tells him he didn't pick up the trail in time, or that it disappeared too expertly, meaning Arya found aid in the woods.  So, unable to pursue, his best bet is to fly to castle black on bird wings so his written assault unseats Jon before the bride arrives on horseback to unseat Boltons. 

And as for the pat reply of "Ramsay couldn't have possibly known the letter would result in Jon's removal and/or death," I would just say Scoreboard.  Because he obviously did know, because he wrote with that intent and it then happened.  The Boltons are expert players of the game.  Skinning people looks blunt on the surface of things, but the knifework is actually quite nuanced, to keep people alive and awake through that.   Same with their politics and strategy in the field.  They've been gaming the system this whole time.   The letter absolutely could have been knowingly designed to achieve the exact result it got. They know their homeland best, better than the Starks obviously.  He'd know the tenuous position Jon was already in with the other Watchmen due to casting tradition aside,  and that applying pressure on the situation would cause the breaking of Jon's weak hold on neutrality.  Boom.  Like an astral knife, Rams' letter severed the Watch's heart from afar with the same easy nuance he used to take Winterfell.   Outside the norm thinking is his hallmark, bloodless on his end because bleeding is for other people.

(Don't worry, in another week I'll be saying Melisandre wrote it.  This was just to establish that Ramsay can't be discredited as the author.)

 

Edited by The Mother of The Others
Houston is boring flatland without hills. Take that, James Harden!

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1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

he Ramsay Theory should propose an explanation for the following:

1. Ramsay's reaction to the escape of Theon and Jeyne. Does he hunt them or stay in Winterfell?

2. How there was Seven Days of Battle when Stannis' army was losing ever-mounting numbers to cold and hunger.

3. What happened in the battle with Stannis.

4. What happened with Mance.

5. How Ramsay came to have Stannis' magic sword.

6. When Ramsay wrote the letter.

7. What Ramsay expected the letter to achieve and why the letter was the best way of achieving that goal.

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

9. Why Ramsay did not get the signatures of the northern lords.

10. What Ramsay thought about the fact that Jon would know his bride is not Arya.

Like all good theories, the Ramsay Theory should be supported by relevant citation from the text where possible, including any instances of foreshadowing.

So please, explain it to me in detail, if you can.

I'll do my best.

After Theon and Jeyne escape,d, Ramsay most likely oversaw the capture of the spearwives and Abel (Mance).  At some point, he probably gave pursuit.  If so, he was unsuccessful, and we know they arrived safely in Stannis's camp, at which point they would be inaccessible to Ramsay.  

His next logical move would be to return to Winterfell and prepare for battle and question his captives.  At that oint he probably learned who Mance was and Jon's role.  It is possible that they lied about or exaggerated Jon's role in the affair.  In any event, Ramsay would have learned Jon's role and assume that Jon and Stannis and Jon are working together.

I don't know when the letter was written, or whether there was even a battle.  He may have won, he may only think he won, or may be lying out his ass.  

He may or may not be aware of Jeyne's departure for Castle Black.  If so, he will know she has a substantial head start and he has no chance of catching her.  In any event, he probably knows he cannot get her back, as she will likely kill herself first.  (I base this on her mental trauma and injuries).

At some point, he sends an angry letter to Jon.  Possible motives include the following:

  • Scare the named individuals into abandoning Castle Black and leaving Westeros, or the Night's Watch into evicting them.  If they are no longer in Westeros, it isolates Stannis, and they are no longer Ramsay's problem.
  • Inform Jon that he knows about Mance, and his deceit is exposed.  Might also be a threat to expose Mance's involvement in FArya's disappearance.
  • Make Jon think Stannis is defeated and dead, and his own position is in peril.
  • Give himself an excuse to attack Castle Black.  He knows the letter's demands are not going to be met.
  • Induce a rebellion by Nights Watch members.
  • Vent his anger at Jon.  It's not like Ramsay is the most stable person out there

 He probably doesn't want the Northern lords to know what he is up to, and may be trying to keep secret the fact that he has lost FArya.  Given that blood makes lousy ink (mentioned in a Tyrion chapter), and he may not have a ready supply handy, writing in ink may have been preferable.  Don't know, don't really care.

If Jon tries to claim that Arya is fake, Ramsay will counter with the fact that Jon has lied and is in league with Stannis,, his and the crown's enemy, and is therefore not trustworthy.

 

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2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It seems that the majority of readers believe that Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter. I don't buy it, I think Stannis was the main architect with some input from Mance, but I would like to leave who aside for the purpose of this debate. I'm more interested in testing the Ramsay Theory.

I’ve always thought the majority of readers believe Ramsay didn’t write the PL. But that may just be a result of seeing so many threads over the years proposing different authors. 

ps: isn’t Ramsay one of the “whos” though? 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Unfortunately the Ramsay Theory, though widely accepted, does not exist in any unified form, but rather as a separate set of objections to other potential authors.

You’re saying supporters of the Ramsay Theory go, “I don’t accept any of the other proposed authors, therefore it must have been Ramsay”. That may be he case for some, don’t know and can’t speak for others. For me, that’s not it. I think Ramsay wrote the letter, always have, and all the arguments proposing different authors I have ever read have failed to convince me. And some are extremely well-thought and presented, really interesting reads.  But ultimately they fall short of being convincing because they can’t explain the proposed author’s reasoning in a satisfactory manner. There is no way in 7 hells that Stannis, or Mance, or [your choice here] could possibly think that Jon would do what they wanted/expected - whatever that might be. 

The PL situation is, in a lot of ways, very similar to the R+L=J situation. There are clues and foreshadowing and pieces of a puzzle, but not enough to be sure w/o a shadow of a doubt. And just enough red herrings to create doubt. And the red herrings are so good and well-crafted that it is also impossible to disprove them completely. 

And when I say Martin is the :devil: people laugh at me! 

 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The letter is signed, Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell, so some might argue that the burden of proof is on the other theories, and I accept that. But the act of Ramsay writing the letter still needs to fit into a coherent narrative, a logical sequence of events, book-ended by Theon's leap from the wall of Winterfell and the arrival of the Pink Letter at Castle Black.

And it does just that. IMO.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The Ramsay Theory should propose an explanation for the following:

1. Ramsay's reaction to the escape of Theon and Jeyne. Does he hunt them or stay in Winterfell?

As others have said, he probably tried to find them at some point. He didn’t find them and returned to WF. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

2. How there was Seven Days of Battle when Stannis' army was losing ever-mounting numbers to cold and hunger.

Maybe it wasn’t 7 days of battle. It’s obvious there are lies in the letter, and some truths. There are bluffs as well, and maybe a few guesses too. Maybe Stannis’ men won against the first wave of Freys and that gave them heart. I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t disprove nor confirms anything. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

3. What happened in the battle with Stannis.

I think Stannis won and is alive. Possibly w/ aid from Manderly’s men and maybe others. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

4. What happened with Mance.

In hiding or captured. I suppose it’s even possible that he’s dead, though I don’t think he’d die off-page.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

5. How Ramsay came to have Stannis' magic sword.

Stannis made sure of that, it was a key point in the plan. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

6. When Ramsay wrote the letter.

I think after trying to find Theon and fArya. He fails, returns to WF, and writes the letter.

 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

7. What Ramsay expected the letter to achieve and why the letter was the best way of achieving that goal.

Ramsay is not big on thinking. He has a low cunning, but he’s no Sheldon Cooper. :D

He fails to find Theon and fArya and thinks their best bet is to try to get to CB and Jon. He knows about Mance and the spaerwives, and tries to stay ahead b/c he knows will know immediately that Jeyne is not Arya. Long story short, what @Nevets said. But instead of trying to achieve the same thing in a sane manner, w/ a nice letter saying, “if you expose my lie, I’ll expose yours”, he goes all Ramsay on Jon. That’s why the letter is addressed to “bastard”.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

Why should he?

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

9. Why Ramsay did not get the signatures of the northern lords.

Why should he? 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

10. What Ramsay thought about the fact that Jon would know his bride is not Arya.

See # 7 above.

 

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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

“if you expose my lie, I’ll expose yours

#10 got me thinking a lot now

Let's talk tactics and play this out

Let's assume everything is true in the Pink Letter and Ramsey wrote it. Let's assume Ramsey thinks Jon has fArya.

 

Option # 1: Ramsey reveals to the world that Jon Snow kept Mance, the King-Beyond-The-Wall, alive

  • NW says there were hundreds of witnesses, including Stannis, watched MEL burn Mance ... good luck trying to convince the NW that their Commander deceived them somehow. Are they going to invite a random NW brother to come check it out in WInterfell?
  • Why would any Northern houses really care what Jon Snow does with Mance? Jon Snow is in the NW and is untouchable from the outside

Option # 2: Jon tells the world that fArya is fake, with Jeyne and Theon confirming it

  • The rest of the North, still holding a grudge of the Red Wedding, were deceived by the Boltons and the Iron Throne...AGAIN
  • The Boltons hold no Stark hostage in Winterfell
  • The rest of the North may rally against the Boltons with the last remaining Stark ... Jon Snow
  • The rest of the North wouldn't care if Jon Snow lied about Mance or not, but now they would know Mance tried to rescue fArya

For fun, Option # 3: fArya keeps pretending to be Arya at Castle Black ... what is Ramsey's move? Deny it? That would be shooting himself in the foot lol

fArya escaping and revealing her true identity would have hurt the Bolton's cause significantly. Ramsey giving Jon Option # 1 or Option # 2 is plain stupid from Ramsey's POV. It is both a "no-win situation" for him. His only options after defeating Stannis are:

  1. Secure fArya if she is hiding
  2. Attack Castle Black swiftly and quietly if he assumed Jon Snow has her 

If Ramsey was bluffing with his Pink Letter, he was truly lucky that Jon Snow knows nothing. If Jon was smarter, he should of secured Arya and "Reek" first before making a bold move that resulted in his assassination.

But I don't believe in this sheer luckiness of Ramsey that Jon fell for the bluff. It's not a good bluff. It's not a smart move.

 

I believe Mance, the character who was born lucky since his name-day, evaded capture in Winterfell. Mance is like a James Bond, he gets away with everything.

I believe Mel, the only other character who knows about Mance's secret mission, wrote the Pink Letter. She knew about the bride and Reek after two-way-only raven-communication between Castle Black and Crofter's Village. I believe Mel wanted to test Jon Snow's Azor Ahai-ness. She knows how Jon would react to the letter, and she saw the potential mutiny in the fire. She removes all suspicion of herself by calling herself a "red whore".

If Mel can glamour Rattleshirt and Mance in front of hundreds of people, she can deceive Jon by glamouring herself with Ramsey Bolton in a letter.

 

 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:
Quote

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

Why should he?

It is his MO. Let's assume he wrote the Pink Letter with an ink-pen at his desk. Wouldn't his desk have the Bolton wax stamp lying around too?

I would believe Ramsey wrote the letter if he either:

  1. Wrote the letter in blood, with skins, and with the Bolton Seal
  2. Wrote the letter in blood, without the Bolton Seal ... since it was written in the torture room
  3. Wrote the letter in ink, with the Bolton Seal ... since he was at his desk

I refuse to believe:

  • Wrote the letter in ink, without the Bolton Seal .... where the hell did he write it then??
Edited by The Map Guy

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8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It seems that the majority of readers believe that Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter. I don't buy it, I think Stannis was the main architect with some input from Mance, but I would like to leave who aside for the purpose of this debate. I'm more interested in testing the Ramsay Theory.

Unfortunately the Ramsay Theory, though widely accepted, does not exist in any unified form, but rather as a separate set of objections to other potential authors. The letter is signed, Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell, so some might argue that the burden of proof is on the other theories, and I accept that. But the act of Ramsay writing the letter still needs to fit into a coherent narrative, a logical sequence of events, book-ended by Theon's leap from the wall of Winterfell and the arrival of the Pink Letter at Castle Black.

The Ramsay Theory should propose an explanation for the following:

1. Ramsay's reaction to the escape of Theon and Jeyne. Does he hunt them or stay in Winterfell?

2. How there was Seven Days of Battle when Stannis' army was losing ever-mounting numbers to cold and hunger.

3. What happened in the battle with Stannis.

4. What happened with Mance.

5. How Ramsay came to have Stannis' magic sword.

6. When Ramsay wrote the letter.

7. What Ramsay expected the letter to achieve and why the letter was the best way of achieving that goal.

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

9. Why Ramsay did not get the signatures of the northern lords.

10. What Ramsay thought about the fact that Jon would know his bride is not Arya.

Like all good theories, the Ramsay Theory should be supported by relevant citation from the text where possible, including any instances of foreshadowing.

So please, explain it to me in detail, if you can.

 

The good thing about the theory that ramsay wrote the pink letter is that it is very flexible. There isn t an unifying theory beaucause depending on what you believe happened with stannis there are several good reasons as to why ramsay would have written the letter (this doesnt happen with your theory about stannis writting it that uses several unlikely scenarios).

In summary here are some scenarios.

1) farya and theon escaped and ramsay failed to catch their trail in time (because it is snowing, because of moors umber, because he wasn t told fast enough… choose your pick). Then ramsay decides to torture mance and the mancettes (female wildlings) for information.  Decides that farya and theon are headed to the Wall but he can t follow because stannis is near winterfell and he is supposed to ride to the battle near CV. Decides to write the PL to the watch in order to cause a mutiny ( @The Mother of The Others gave several good reasons in his/her post. But basically the NW brothers are criminals and jon just told them that stannis is defeated and that the boltons will kill them all if they don t deliver a series of hostages and jon won t do it. It is kind of logical that a group of criminals doesn t want to die for something that isn t even in their NW vows). In addition, if the mutiny is sucessfull ramsay can always send some of the Bolton men in the dreadfort to collect the hostages and use them against stannis if stannis is sucessful in the CV battle.

In this scenario the problems you note in the PL are because ramsay doesn t want to include the northern lords in his huge bluff (obviously), doesn t want to waste time to write the letter in blood/roose is in the PL scheme and doesn t see the point and the smidge is probably because someone in the NW opened the PL before jon and screwed up when closing it again (no matter the theory there isn t really a good reason for the smidge besides this (anyone that wants to fake a Bolton letter could find a Bolton sigil…)).

2) Again, farya and theon escaped and ramsay failed to catch their trail in time and decides to torture mance and the mancettes in order to find out who they are and where farya and theon are going. Upon finding out it is to the Wall (2 or 3 weeks travel time) he decides to leave for the CV battle because it is more important than farya at the moment.

After a battle where he:

a) defeats stannis. In this scenario stannis has lost the northern clans men due to several disagreements with them (religion, discontent, fire sacrifices, how theon and the karstarks stituation is handled, disbelief in stannis victory) and the fact that farya is already safe (one of the major reasons they went with stannis). And I am sorry stannis is the mannis fans, but I think this is a real and likely possibility and thus the battle in CV is even more dire for stannis...

So theon and asha would escape mid battle or stannis would escape with them (and a small number of his men) after having lost his sword in the battle and being defeated and the seven days of battle were because stannis is just that though and wouldn t surrender or it includes some time chasing survivors.

In winterfell, roose would have some scheme to deal with most northern bannermen because he suspects they are disloyal ( he says that several times in dance) and he can t have traitors during a possible siege. So when ramsay returns it would make sense that roose would have handled some of these "friends" stannis might have inside winterfell. Therefore there aren t signatures of the northern lords in the letter.

So after arriving in winterfell and learning that roose has dealt with the rebelious lords in there ramsay decides to write the PL demanding his bride, reek and people he thinks were important for stannis and the wildlings and jon because he is a psicopath and because now he needs to kill jon in order to hide the fact that farya is fake. So he either wants to use the PL to cause a mutiny that kills jon as mentioned above or he wants to provoke jon into starting some conflict with him so that he has a reason to kill the Lord comander of the NW and Ned stark last knowing living son. He couldn t just go to the Wall and attack the NW without reason or he might face more rebelions...

ps the letter isn t written in blood because roose would be involved in the scheme

 

b) ramsay is defeated in the battle and upon returning to winterfell decides to write the PL full of false information obtained from mance and the mancettes in order to cause a mutiny (secondary ojective here) and force the NW to give him hostages to use against stannis, the wildlings and his bride and reek. These hostages would be collected by Bolton men sent from the dreadfort.

So the forces in winterfell would only need to hold for some time until he could prove to stannis he has his familly and mel. In regards to the problems you see in the letter, they exist because ramsay wrote the letter in haste and didn t want to waste time collecting blood and couldn t inform the northern lords of the plan because they could be traitors, so they didn t sign it.

 

In general, I think this 3 scenarios include almost everything that might happen in the north and ramsay writting the PL always makes sense...

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6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I believe Mel, the only other character who knows about Mance's secret mission, wrote the Pink Letter.

 

I had the same thought awhile ago:

 

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 7:20 AM, Three-Fingered Pete said:
On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 6:54 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

If you believe the purpose of the letter is to get Jon to break his vows, then Stannis who has repeatedly asked Jon to set his vows aside in the text, must be the prime suspect.

 

Or Mel, under Stannis' orders, or maybe even on her own. She has much interest in getting Jon off of his butt too.

 

I also have a notion that Mel was the one who put Mormont's raven in the kettle to sway the vote for LC toward Jon, but I think I'm in a definite minority there. That would mean Mel had her sights on Jon right after she first met him. In our one POV from her, we don't really get that.

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16 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It seems that the majority of readers believe that Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter. I don't buy it, I think Stannis was the main architect with some input from Mance, but I would like to leave who aside for the purpose of this debate. I'm more interested in testing the Ramsay Theory.

Unfortunately the Ramsay Theory, though widely accepted, does not exist in any unified form, but rather as a separate set of objections to other potential authors. The letter is signed, Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell, so some might argue that the burden of proof is on the other theories, and I accept that. But the act of Ramsay writing the letter still needs to fit into a coherent narrative, a logical sequence of events, book-ended by Theon's leap from the wall of Winterfell and the arrival of the Pink Letter at Castle Black.

The Ramsay Theory should propose an explanation for the following:

1. Ramsay's reaction to the escape of Theon and Jeyne. Does he hunt them or stay in Winterfell?

2. How there was Seven Days of Battle when Stannis' army was losing ever-mounting numbers to cold and hunger.

3. What happened in the battle with Stannis.

4. What happened with Mance.

5. How Ramsay came to have Stannis' magic sword.

6. When Ramsay wrote the letter.

7. What Ramsay expected the letter to achieve and why the letter was the best way of achieving that goal.

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

9. Why Ramsay did not get the signatures of the northern lords.

10. What Ramsay thought about the fact that Jon would know his bride is not Arya.

Like all good theories, the Ramsay Theory should be supported by relevant citation from the text where possible, including any instances of foreshadowing.

So please, explain it to me in detail, if you can.

 

The burden to prove is on those who claim somebody else wrote the letter other than Ramsay.  But for the sake of this discussion . . .

  1. Ramsay has the motive.  Jon crossed the line.  He sent a wildling (and not just any wildling, the wildling king) to steal his bride.  Anybody who isn't a rabid fan of Jon would be pissed at Jon's decision to do this.
  2. Ramsay has the information to compose the letter.  The spearwives got caught.  Ramsay has ways of making people talk.  He interrogated the women and Mance.  They gave him all they knew.  
  3. Ramsay doesn't know Jon's personality.  A sensible person in Jon's position would agree to the reasonable requests in the letter and cooperate.  Ramsay expected Jon to cooperate.  He exposed Jon's oahtbreaking and Jon should do as the letter is asking.  Ramsay's goal is simple and clear.  He wants his bride, Reek, and the rebels in his custody.  None of these demands are unreasonable.  Jon got caught doing something illegal and inappropriate.  Compliance is Jon's way out of the predicament that he dragged the Nightwatch into.  

Even the wording of the letter points to Ramsay.  Notice he doesn't say send Arya back.  Because he knew that Jon would know.  He asked for his bride back.   Ramsay expected Jon's cooperation.  Why would Ramsay bother to get the signatures of the northern lords?  That's completely unnecessary.  Besides, some of those lords can't write.  They have the confession from the savages and they have the proof of Jon's oathbreaking.  Jon basically attacked House Bolton already.  Do we know for a fact that Ramsay always wrote in blood?  We don't.  He was in a hurry to make up for lost time.  He used what was handy.  Maybe he dictated the letter to a lackey.  Swords are taken by the victors.  Yeah.  He has Stannis Baratheon's magic sword.  

I don't believe Ramsay expected something as stupid as Jon leading an army of wildlings to attack him directly.  That's purely idiotic.  Jon is a traitor and an oathbreaker.  Perhaps the worst commander ever but Ramsay doesn't expect him to be stupid enough and dishonorable enough to lead an army of wildlings to attack a noble house directly.  That's a very inappropriate thing to do for a lord commander of the watch.  No commander has ever lead an army of wildlings to attack the kingdom he has sworn to protect.  

 

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17 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Why would any Northern houses really care what Jon Snow does with Mance? Jon Snow is in the NW and is untouchable from the outside

Mance is the North's main enemy.  The NW exists in large part to defend the North from people like him (or so the Northerners assume).  Having the commander of the Nw send their main enemy to Winterfell on a personal mission is likely to be quite incendiary.

The NW is dependent on the North for supplies and men.  Being divided from the North could destroy it.

17 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Option # 2: Jon tells the world that fArya is fake, with Jeyne and Theon confirming it

  • The rest of the North, still holding a grudge of the Red Wedding, were deceived by the Boltons and the Iron Throne...AGAIN
  • The Boltons hold no Stark hostage in Winterfell
  • The rest of the North may rally against the Boltons with the last remaining Stark ... Jon Snow
  • The rest of the North wouldn't care if Jon Snow lied about Mance or not, but now they would know Mance tried to rescue fArya

For fun, Option # 3: fArya keeps pretending to be Arya at Castle Black ... what is Ramsey's move? Deny it? That would be shooting himself in the foot lol

fArya escaping and revealing her true identity would have hurt the Bolton's cause significantly. Ramsey giving Jon Option # 1 or Option # 2 is plain stupid from Ramsey's POV. It is both a "no-win situation" for him. His only options after defeating Stannis are:

  1. Secure fArya if she is hiding
  2. Attack Castle Black swiftly and quietly if he assumed Jon Snow has her

As I have suggested, the letter is saying that Ramsay is prepared to brand Jon as a traitor and liar, and therefore not to be trusted.  Anything Jon says about FArya will be branded as a lie by Ramsay and his allies.  At the very least this will cause confusion and doubt, and might even be successful.  

17 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

believe Mel, the only other character who knows about Mance's secret mission, wrote the Pink Letter. She knew about the bride and Reek after two-way-only raven-communication between Castle Black and Crofter's Village. I believe Mel wanted to test Jon Snow's Azor Ahai-ness. She knows how Jon would react to the letter, and she saw the potential mutiny in the fire. She removes all suspicion of herself by calling herself a "red whore".

If Mel can glamour Rattleshirt and Mance in front of hundreds of people, she can deceive Jon by glamouring herself with Ramsey Bolton in a letter

From what I've seen, Mel seems intent on keeping Jon around to help defeat the Others.  I seriously doubt she wants him hurt,, killed, or absent from the Wall.  It makes the job of fighting the Enemy that much more difficult.

14 hours ago, divica said:

Decides to write the PL to the watch in order to cause a mutiny ( @The Mother of The Others gave several good reasons in his/her post. But basically the NW brothers are criminals and jon just told them that stannis is defeated and that the boltons will kill them all if they don t deliver a series of hostages and jon won t do it. It is kind of logical that a group of criminals doesn t want to die for something that isn t even in their NW vows). In addition, if the mutiny is sucessfull ramsay can always send some of the Bolton men in the dreadfort to collect the hostages and use them against stannis if stannis is sucessful in the CV battle.

The biggest problem with the theory that the letter is designed to start a mutiny is that requires that the contents of the letter become to others besides Jon.   This is certainly a possibility, especially if Ramsay has allies or conspirators within the NIghts Watch, which he could.  But it is hardly a certainty.  If Jon keeps the letter's contents to himself, there won't be a mutiny (at least, not one based on the letter).  He certainly can't count on Jon actually reading the damn thing aloud to a crowd.

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11 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The biggest problem with the theory that the letter is designed to start a mutiny is that requires that the contents of the letter become to others besides Jon.   This is certainly a possibility, especially if Ramsay has allies or conspirators within the NIghts Watch, which he could.  But it is hardly a certainty.  If Jon keeps the letter's contents to himself, there won't be a mutiny (at least, not one based on the letter).  He certainly can't count on Jon actually reading the damn thing aloud to a crowd.

However one of the themes in feast and dance was that maesters like to read the letters their lords receive and lady dustin (that is in winterfell) surelly likes to talk about it. So it wouldn t be strange that ramsey thinks that the maester in CB would read the PL and spread the word...

On the other hand it would be strange if jon doesn t talk about the contents of the letter to anybody in the NW and all it takes is one traitor do spread the word and do the deed. And if ramsay knows something about jon (thanks to mance and the mancettes) is that he wouldn t do make a decision about being in a war with the boltons without talking with people in the NW...

ps don t Forget that ramsay can know a lot about jon's style of leadership and status of the NW thans to torturing mance...

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

However one of the themes in feast and dance was that maesters like to read the letters their lords receive and lady dustin (that is in winterfell) surelly likes to talk about it. So it wouldn t be strange that ramsey thinks that the maester in CB would read the PL and spread the word...

On the other hand it would be strange if jon doesn t talk about the contents of the letter to anybody in the NW and all it takes is one traitor do spread the word and do the deed. And if ramsay knows something about jon (thanks to mance and the mancettes) is that he wouldn t do make a decision about being in a war with the boltons without talking with people in the NW...

ps don t Forget that ramsay can know a lot about jon's style of leadership and status of the NW thans to torturing mance...

Oh, I don't think it is impossible that mutiny was a potential motive for the letter.  Which is why I listed it in my earlier post.  Just not the only motive or even the main one.  I think there were plenty of things he was trying to accomplish.

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8 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The burden to prove is on those who claim somebody else wrote the letter other than Ramsay.  But for the sake of this discussion . . .

Yes, and the OP very clearly says as much. 

Here, I need case you missed it: 

some might argue that the burden of proof is on the other theories, and I accept that”. 

 

Quote
  1. Ramsay has the motive.  Jon crossed the line.  He sent a wildling (and not just any wildling, the wildling king) to steal his bride.  Anybody who isn't a rabid fan of Jon would be pissed at Jon's decision to do this.

Yes, bias is a bitch, innit? :rofl:

 

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Ramsay has the information to compose the letter.  The spearwives got caught.  Ramsay has ways of making people talk.  He interrogated the women and Mance.  They gave him all they knew 

Ramsay has some info, but obviously not all of it. It’s right there in the text. Try using it to back up your claims, it may give you better results. Or else, you’re gonna hate Winds, same as all the rest of the Jon haters. :)

 

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  1. Ramsay doesn't know Jon's personality.  A sensible person in Jon's position would agree to the reasonable requests in the letter and cooperate.  Ramsay expected Jon to cooperate. 

I so needed a good, hearty laugh today! 

:cheers:

Coz, for sure, Ramsay’s demands were so reasonable... :rolleyes:

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  1. He exposed Jon's oahtbreaking and Jon should do as the letter is asking. 

Absolutely! Jon should just hand Ramsay all the NW’s guests, including a child, to be tortured, raped and flayed. That’s exactly what a stand-up bloke would do. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (I hope it’s clear I’m really rolling my eyes so hard I can see the back of my skull). 

 

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  1. Ramsay's goal is simple and clear.  He wants his bride, Reek, and the rebels in his custody.  None of these demands are unreasonable

:rofl:

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  1.   Jon got caught doing something illegal and inappropriate.  Compliance is Jon's way out of the predicament that he dragged the Nightwatch into.  

Oh please... I could post another 37 eye rolls, but somehow I don’t think that’s gonna help any. Jon is not going to give his guests over to a known torturer and rapist. Any decent human being would do the same as Jon did. So, in my book, if you’re all for surrendering innocents to a mad psycho, then the problem is w/ you not Jon. :dunno:

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Even the wording of the letter points to Ramsay.  Notice he doesn't say send Arya back.  Because he knew that Jon would know.  He asked for his bride back.   Ramsay expected Jon's cooperation.  Why would Ramsay bother to get the signatures of the northern lords?  That's completely unnecessary.  Besides, some of those lords can't write.  They have the confession from the savages and they have the proof of Jon's oath.  

I’m  now utterly bored by your silly bias and mindless hate. *YAWN*

Just out of curiosity though... the FF are savages, but the Dothraki are... awesome? :rolleyes: x infinity.

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 No commander has ever lead an army of wildlings to attack the kingdom he has sworn to protect.  

Yes, Jon is sworn to protect the realms of men, and as far as I can see, he’s one of very few who are actually doing just that. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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On 2/9/2019 at 4:18 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

It seems that the majority of readers believe that Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter. I don't buy it, I think Stannis was the main architect with some input from Mance, but I would like to leave who aside for the purpose of this debate. I'm more interested in testing the Ramsay Theory.

Unfortunately the Ramsay Theory, though widely accepted, does not exist in any unified form, but rather as a separate set of objections to other potential authors. The letter is signed, Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell, so some might argue that the burden of proof is on the other theories, and I accept that. But the act of Ramsay writing the letter still needs to fit into a coherent narrative, a logical sequence of events, book-ended by Theon's leap from the wall of Winterfell and the arrival of the Pink Letter at Castle Black.

The Ramsay Theory should propose an explanation for the following:

1. Ramsay's reaction to the escape of Theon and Jeyne. Does he hunt them or stay in Winterfell?

2. How there was Seven Days of Battle when Stannis' army was losing ever-mounting numbers to cold and hunger.

3. What happened in the battle with Stannis.

4. What happened with Mance.

5. How Ramsay came to have Stannis' magic sword.

6. When Ramsay wrote the letter.

7. What Ramsay expected the letter to achieve and why the letter was the best way of achieving that goal.

8. Why Ramsay did not write the letter in blood.

9. Why Ramsay did not get the signatures of the northern lords.

10. What Ramsay thought about the fact that Jon would know his bride is not Arya.

Like all good theories, the Ramsay Theory should be supported by relevant citation from the text where possible, including any instances of foreshadowing.

So please, explain it to me in detail, if you can.

 

Do you accept that the events of Theon, Winds occur before the events of Jon XIII, Dance? 

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7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Do you accept that the events of Theon, Winds occur before the events of Jon XIII, Dance? 

Yes. I would go further actually and say that the Battle of Ice also took place before Jon XIII.

ETA: but I don't believe the battle lasted seven days.

Edited by three-eyed monkey

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On 2/9/2019 at 4:37 PM, The Map Guy said:

Oooo I never thoughted about #10. Good job. Jon would of told the world that fArya is not Arya, instead doing that stupid thing that got him killed

 

#11 The 6 Charlie Angels were skinned, plenty of skin to send along with the letter

#12 Why the smudge of wax instead of the Bolton Seal Wax

#13 Wasn't Theon, aka Reek, in Stannis' custody at CV? Why would Ramsay want 'Reek' back if he claimed victory over Stannis and CV?

I call BS on Ramsay writing the Pink Letter too. It was Mel the entire time.

Mel has no reason to write that letter.  Doing so puts her and everybody else in danger.  Jon is a moron and it is just like him to leave the wall to confront Ramsay.  Mel would not want that to happen because she is actually interested in defending the wall from the white walkers.  

 

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The authorship of the Pink Letter really is one of my favorite arguments.   Team Ramsay, because we are so proud he can write at all.  There are some great arguments on all --gads, got to be up to 7 -- sides.   The truth is Ramsay is a jackass.   The letter falls right in line with his propensity for jackassery.   The letter is ranting and raving and threats.  There is no subtlety that Mance or Stannis or Mel or Marsh Bowen might have employed.   Ramsay's cracks are showing in the letter.   Poor Jon.  

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