Jump to content
Wik

Aegon Targaryen and the IT

Recommended Posts

24 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Martin said a "bittersweet ending like LoTR". The way D&D have set up this season, especially after episode 4. I'm not seeing  a bittersweet ending at all but a tragedy. If the leaks for episode 5 and 6 are anywhere near close, then it won't even be a tragedy but a darn sh* tshow.

I can accept a good well planned tragedy. But the leaks are definitely a shit show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Martin said a "bittersweet ending like LoTR". The way D&D have set up this season, especially after episode 4. I'm not seeing  a bittersweet ending at all but a tragedy. If the leaks for episode 5 and 6 are anywhere near close, then it won't even be a tragedy but a darn sh* tshow.

 

4 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I can accept a good well planned tragedy. But the leaks are definitely a shit show. 

Would be classic shitshow top form if it turned out they haven't even seen LoTR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Me too. I totally agree.

In addition to Jon doing all sorts of flashy sword fights, I think the show also messed this up by changing the circumstances of Daenerys and Drogo's wedding night (frankly, it was a masterclass in erotica) and not letting Dany take a more aggressively active role in the sacking of Astapor and the fighting pits. In Astapor, GRRM has her beating the living hell out of Kraznys mo Nakloz with a whip while Drogon and the Unsullied kill the slavers; in the fighting pits, Daenerys not only leaps into action with a whip to rescue and subdue Drogon but she does so while nimbly dodging dragonfire. Then Dany rides off on Drogon bareback.

Yes, exactly! Some of the stuff she does reminds me of James Bond, and how all women love him and he uses it to his advantage, and causes destruction everywhere he goes yet everyone loves him anyway. She's like that, and it's great. 

10 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

In other words, Dany is an action hero in the books. A female warrior king who leads from the front. Like trust me, Dany is going to wield a sword (or a Dothraki arakh) before the end of it.

A dragonbone bow and arrow that she can fire from dragonback for precise hits, would be a great weapon for her and/or throwing spears. 

10 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm beginning to doubt if D&D actually ever read the books in their entirety more than once.

Or if they did they sped read them only, and didn't bother to read the books that came out after GRRM signed on the dotted line. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

<snip> In Astapor, GRRM has her beating the living hell out of Kraznys mo Nakloz with a whip while Drogon and the Unsullied kill the slavers; in the fighting pits, Daenerys not only leaps into action with a whip to rescue and subdue Drogon but she does so while nimbly dodging dragonfire. Then Dany rides off on Drogon bareback.

In other words, Dany is an action hero in the books. A female warrior king who leads from the front. Like trust me, Dany is going to wield a sword (or a Dothraki arakh) before the end of it. <snip>

That taming-Drogon-with-a-whip scene is my very favorite scene in the entire series. Of course, D&D radically changed it to semi-nonsense. And as for Daenerys, instead of standing out there alone physically confronting a dragon frenzied with rage, we see her holding Missandei's hand and wishing. . . .

On a larger note, they've done all but nothing in the show to get across the fact that Daenerys always planned her own battle tactics and deserves most of the credit for her stream of successes, at times brilliant successes. Not just due to dragons, due to her brilliance and ability to inspire the troops.

By far the biggest change between the books and the series, though, is that in the series Daenerys is always decisive about everything and never questions herself. In the books, introspection is her middle name. Show Daenerys, the posing badass, is far, far less interesting than book Daenerys, who manages to conjure up decisiveness when she needs it to lead but is really a teen-aged girl beset with anxieties and self-doubts. All of that has entirely disappeared and it's exactly what made her such a great character. 

I sure hope I get to read books 6 and 7 and find out what happens to the real Daenerys some day. . . .:read:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Martin said a "bittersweet ending like LoTR". The way D&D have set up this season, especially after episode 4. I'm not seeing  a bittersweet ending at all but a tragedy. If the leaks for episode 5 and 6 are anywhere near close, then it won't even be a tragedy but a darn sh* tshow.

completely agree - the set up is TRAGIC - not bittersweet. what gets me, is that the final two ep should be closing arcs to a satisfactory resolution. I just dont get how this is going to happen atm - its gonna leave plenty despondent and stunned

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Martin said a "bittersweet ending like LoTR". The way D&D have set up this season, especially after episode 4. I'm not seeing  a bittersweet ending at all but a tragedy. If the leaks for episode 5 and 6 are anywhere near close, then it won't even be a tragedy but a darn sh* tshow.

I've stayed away from leaks this season.

I never read the LotR part of that quote so I looked it up.

The number one question people ask me about the series is whether I think everyone will lose—whether it will end in some horrible apocalypse. I know you can’t speak to that specifically, but as a revisionist of epic fantasy—


"I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire—brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: “Why is this here? The story’s over?” But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge."

https://observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/

and

“I think you need to have some hope…we all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end,” he said. “You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect.”  

http://time.com/4101276/game-of-thrones-ending-george-r-r-martin/

If Aejon=Frodo, two characters who bear emotional and even physical scars, then I believe that Jon will end up north of the Wall (where his heart is) as I've predicted, and as the parallel to Frodo sailing away to a peaceful place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

I've stayed away from leaks this season.

I never read the LotR part of that quote so I looked it up.

The number one question people ask me about the series is whether I think everyone will lose—whether it will end in some horrible apocalypse. I know you can’t speak to that specifically, but as a revisionist of epic fantasy—


"I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire—brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: “Why is this here? The story’s over?” But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge."

https://observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/

and

“I think you need to have some hope…we all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end,” he said. “You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect.”  

http://time.com/4101276/game-of-thrones-ending-george-r-r-martin/

If Aejon=Frodo, two characters who bear emotional and even physical scars, then I believe that Jon will end up north of the Wall (where his heart is) as I've predicted, and as the parallel to Frodo sailing away to a peaceful place. 

good response but can d&d translate this to the shows. I am worried about it. I like the word 'tone' it is a gentle word and martin seeks to replicate this. hope it goes the same way in the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

The very nature of his work is subversive --of fantasy tropes, yet many fans expect those anyway, becoming attached to "the hero" character and favorable, winning outcomes, like Aejon taking the Iron Throne just as Tolkien's Aragorn took the throne of Gondor in the end.  

GRRM does not "subvert" all tropes he only does that to some aspects of how tropes are used.

he like hero's but he doesn't like how people thing a good conquer/warrior makes a good leader. as he's old quot goes " what is Aragon's tax plan" and that's why bookDany has been shown as a great conquer of kingdoms but a complete failure as a ruler while bookJon has never been a conquer but has shown to be a great ruler in how be dealt with the freefook and leading the NW.

he likes prophecy but he hates how most writer make it to oblivious who its about so GRRM makes his hard to read. like how Dany seems to be the PTWP but it will also likely be Jon how is the real PTWP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

That taming-Drogon-with-a-whip scene is my very favorite scene in the entire series. Of course, D&D radically changed it to semi-nonsense. And as for Daenerys, instead of standing out there alone physically confronting a dragon frenzied with rage, we see her holding Missandei's hand and wishing. . . .

On a larger note, they've done all but nothing in the show to get across the fact that Daenerys always planned her own battle tactics and deserves most of the credit for her stream of successes, at times brilliant successes. Not just due to dragons, due to her brilliance and ability to inspire the troops.

By far the biggest change between the books and the series, though, is that in the series Daenerys is always decisive about everything and never questions herself. In the books, introspection is her middle name. Show Daenerys, the posing badass, is far, far less interesting than book Daenerys, who manages to conjure up decisiveness when she needs it to lead but is really a teen-aged girl beset with anxieties and self-doubts. All of that has entirely disappeared and it's exactly what made her such a great character. 

I sure hope I get to read books 6 and 7 and find out what happens to the real Daenerys some day. . . .:read:

I like that they have made Jon inspirational in the show. But in the show, Daenerys should be Jon's equal not his inferior when it comes to inspiration on a intimate level and a large, public scale.

42 minutes ago, Azarial said:

Yes, exactly! Some of the stuff she does reminds me of James Bond, and how all women love him and he uses it to his advantage, and causes destruction everywhere he goes yet everyone loves him anyway. She's like that, and it's great. 

A dragonbone bow and arrow that she can fire from dragonback for precise hits, would be a great weapon for her and/or throwing spears. 

Or if they did they sped read them only, and didn't bother to read the books that came out after GRRM signed on the dotted line. 

 

LOL

 Yes, James Bond. I never made that connection until now but it makes so much sense I feel stupid. LOL

Also notice how James Bond never sets out to leave destruction in his wake. Sometimes, it's all collateral damage and he doesn't care because he has bigger fish to fry and sometimes, the destruction isn't even his fault.

Think about it: how many men has Dany either had sex with, have wrapped around her finger or been followed around by as of Dance.

  1. Khal Drogo
  2. Viserys
  3. Quentyn Martell
  4. Jorah Mormont
  5. Hizdahr
  6. Daario

And so on and so on. It's like Daenerys Stormborn is every boy band, every sexy male entertainer in history and all the women and girls are screaming to be recognized so that they can have a chance to be a groupie for a night. 

She either swerves on them, has sex on her terms with them or walks right over them

It's quite funny when you look at it that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dex drako said:

GRRM does not "subvert" all tropes he only does that to some aspects of how tropes are used.

he like hero's but he doesn't like how people thing a good conquer/warrior makes a good leader. as he's old quot goes " what is Aragon's tax plan" and that's why bookDany has been shown as a great conquer of kingdoms but a complete failure as a ruler while bookJon has never been a conquer but has shown to be a great ruler in how be dealt with the freefook and leading the NW.

he likes prophecy but he hates how most writer make it to oblivious who its about so GRRM makes his hard to read. like how Dany seems to be the PTWP but it will also likely be Jon how is the real PTWP.

Great ruler? Didn't he just get assassinated after making a very rash, controversial decision, the latest in a long-line of rash, controversial decisions that were made despite the outcry of his subordinates.

When did Jon ever attempt to smooth over tensions within the Night's Watch? The base of his power.

How does that make him a great ruler?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

Great ruler? Didn't he just get assassinated after making a very rash, controversial decision, the latest in a long-line of rash, controversial decisions that were made despite the outcry of his subordinates.

When did Jon ever attempt to smooth over tensions within the Night's Watch? The base of his power.

How does that make him a great ruler?

Jon is hidebound by principle.

YES, there's such a thing as too much principle. You have to look at real-world consequences if you actually want to manifest your beautiful principles into the world

Take the Cold War, for example. There were plenty of times that the US and USSR did things to each other that violated core principles and were undoubtedly grounds for war. But they never declared war on each other, only fought limited wars through client states.

Why didn't they go to war "on principle?" Because of mutual assured destruction, of course, i.e., pragmatism. It doesn't matter what the principle is if acting on it means you get the world destroyed. And it's true even below the thermonuclear level: a good leader is always balancing principle and pragmatism.

Jon too frequently doesn't do that. He remembers some principle Ned taught him, and that's the end of the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Me too. I totally agree.

In addition to Jon doing all sorts of flashy sword fights, I think the show also messed this up by changing the circumstances of Daenerys and Drogo's wedding night (frankly, it was a masterclass in erotica) and not letting Dany take a more aggressively active role in the sacking of Astapor and the fighting pits. In Astapor, GRRM has her beating the living hell out of Kraznys mo Nakloz with a whip while Drogon and the Unsullied kill the slavers; in the fighting pits, Daenerys not only leaps into action with a whip to rescue and subdue Drogon but she does so while nimbly dodging dragonfire. Then Dany rides off on Drogon bareback.

In other words, Dany is an action hero in the books. A female warrior king who leads from the front. Like trust me, Dany is going to wield a sword (or a Dothraki arakh) before the end of it.

I'm beginning to doubt if D&D actually ever read the books in their entirety more than once.

I'm still mad that they thought a pro-slavery "What if the Confederates won the Civil War" fanfic was ever a good idea. Especially in today's culture of ultra-sensitivities and racial, ethnic and class-based tensions, real or imagined.

If it ends the way I heard it might end, no wonder they want to disappear and stay off the Internet. If the rumors and associated predictions are true, I hope they are blacklisted and don't find work for another ten years.

But what's your distinction between bittersweet and tragic, @Daemon The Black Dragon

Bittersweet is Romeo and Juliet whereas tragic would be The One Who Flew Out of the Cuckoo's Nest....

I guess my distinction between bittersweet and tragic is. Bittersweet is  The Last Samurai. Tragic is Seven. I don't have a problem with tragic endings but don't  tell me something is going to have a bittersweet ending like LoTR, then pull a Seven style ending. Especially with how D&D look to be doing it, according to leaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Astrotherapist said:

I've stayed away from leaks this season.

I never read the LotR part of that quote so I looked it up.

The number one question people ask me about the series is whether I think everyone will lose—whether it will end in some horrible apocalypse. I know you can’t speak to that specifically, but as a revisionist of epic fantasy—


"I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire—brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: “Why is this here? The story’s over?” But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge."

https://observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/

and

“I think you need to have some hope…we all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end,” he said. “You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect.”  

http://time.com/4101276/game-of-thrones-ending-george-r-r-martin/

If Aejon=Frodo, two characters who bear emotional and even physical scars, then I believe that Jon will end up north of the Wall (where his heart is) as I've predicted, and as the parallel to Frodo sailing away to a peaceful place. 

I'm glad you've stayed away from the leaks out there. I made the horrible mistake of looking them up :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I guess my distinction between bittersweet and tragic is. Bittersweet is  The Last Samurai. Tragic is Seven. I don't have a problem with tragic endings but don't  tell me something is going to have a bittersweet ending like LoTR, then pull a Seven style ending. Especially with how D&D look to be doing it, according to leaks.

This.

The general narrative in aSoIaF is overall tragic, but with hints of hope and happiness scattered throughout. 
A bittersweet ending (especially when we've over and over been lead to believe that's what we're getting) makes sense in this setting, after everything our (still living) characters have endured, suffered and fought for.
A tragic ending however, makes no sense at this point. It would ultimately make the whole endeavor feel pointless and hollow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

"Yes. And, you know, the major beats. I mean, obviously, we're talking here about several days of story conferences taking place in my home in Santa Fe, New Mexico. But there's no way to get in all the detail, all the minor characters, all the secondary characters.

"The series has been extremely faithful, compared to 97 percent of all television and movie adaptations of literary properties. But it's not completely faithful. And it can't be. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.

"I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have. But they may be on certain secondary characters, there may be big differences."

-George R.R. Martin on 60 Minutes April 14th, 2019

I wouldn't expect them to deviate from Martin that much on the big stuff, major character resolutions like Jon's.  It's still essentially his story.  It would be flagrant disrespect on their part to disregard his major outcomes which would really bite them in their collective ass later when (if) he publishes his final two volumes.  He could also just come out and publicly denounce it if they did.  

Maybe, maybe not. In all honesty we won't know till either there are books to compare to or after the finale GRRM comes out and says, yeah that's roughly the same or something. From that same interview and others it sounds like he doesn't know what the ending will be (very few do). So we won't know for sure for a few more weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2019 at 4:57 AM, Wik said:

Why does everyone say Jon won't be king? This seems to be a very popular thought.....I've always been of the opinion that he WILL rule. 

And don't give me this. "Jon just doesn't want the IT" BS. 

Oh, you mean like he didn't want the LC of the NW?! Ya, ok, we see how that worked out.

He will be a king (of the North or the IT, I can't say). 

Some say he will be king and some say he won't, what we do know is that he's fulfilled his purpose. Anything else is extra for him so it depends on where D&D want to take his character. He is 'the heir' but he does have a choice and it does't mean he has to be king just because he was the LC of the NW and didn't want that either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

I've stayed away from leaks this season.

I never read the LotR part of that quote so I looked it up.

The number one question people ask me about the series is whether I think everyone will lose—whether it will end in some horrible apocalypse. I know you can’t speak to that specifically, but as a revisionist of epic fantasy—


"I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire—brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: “Why is this here? The story’s over?” But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge."

https://observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/

and

“I think you need to have some hope…we all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end,” he said. “You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect.”  

http://time.com/4101276/game-of-thrones-ending-george-r-r-martin/

If Aejon=Frodo, two characters who bear emotional and even physical scars, then I believe that Jon will end up north of the Wall (where his heart is) as I've predicted, and as the parallel to Frodo sailing away to a peaceful place. 

I have some additional thoughts about this but first let's revisit the basic definition of "bittersweet."

Merriam-Webster: "Pleasure accompanied by suffering or regret"
dictionary.com: "Both pleasant and painful or regretful"
wiktionary: "Expressing contrasting emotions of pain and pleasure."

I've read The Lord of the Rings approximately twenty times (since my first reading in 1981) and it has a generally happy ending. The only casualties were two, corrupt "grey" characters (the kind Martin loves) Boromir and Denethor dead, and one good, minor character in Theoden, also slain.  The rest of the Fellowship and their allies had very happy endings except maybe Frodo who had sustained an ostensibly permanent, psychic wound to his shoulder from the Morgul knife, and the Ring left its mark as well.  But then he sailed to an elven paradise where peace and final healing could be had. That's what he desired and he loved the elves.    

Martin didn't actually say that The Lord of the Rings has a bittersweet ending, nor that his ending would be like the Lord of the Rings, but that a couple of aspects of the victory against Sauron were bittersweet (to him) citing the specific examples of Frodo's situation and the Scouring of the Shire chapter --when the hobbits returned from war only to find that their homeland was trashed by Saruman --a bitter twist, but one soon set to rights.  Martin is shooting for the "tone" of those two items from LotR but in no way will the losses match -they can't- GRRM has killed more main and side characters than Tolkien.  

The ending will be bittersweet in that some characters will live and find good outcomes, some will die, tragically, and perhaps one will survive but exit the Kingdoms, brokenhearted for a while yet life will go on.  This last outcome, I think, will be Jon's fate.   

Edited by Astrotherapist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2019 at 11:40 AM, Astrotherapist said:

TORMUND: We need room to wander.
I'll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.
Back where we belong.
JON: It's where he belongs too.
A direwolf has no place in the south.
Will you take him with you? He'll be happier up there.
TORMUND: So would you.
JON: I wish I was going with you.
This is farewell, then.
TORMUND: You never know.
You've got the North in you.
The real North.

Opening scene of SE1EP1: Rangers leave the tunnel from Castle Black and ride into the wilderness.

Final scene of SE8E6: Jon leaves the tunnel from Castle Black and rides into the wilderness. 

I honestly thought the comment was meant in jest which is why I left the rofl thing.....

Do people not realize there is no Wall anymore? It's not going to be re-made, the North, in technical terms, now encompasses ALL of the land that WAS beyond the Wall. 

The North is The North now. No other caveats. People keep suggesting some how there will be a Wildling army again or a people beyond the Wall, which is BEYOND me. It's no longer a thing. 

Now, is it possible that Jon rules the North as king from Winterfell? Sure, why not. But its not like he is just gonna go roaming like Mance had to. They are completely different situations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/10/2019 at 12:03 PM, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Some say he will be king and some say he won't, what we do know is that he's fulfilled his purpose. Anything else is extra for him so it depends on where D&D want to take his character. He is 'the heir' but he does have a choice and it does't mean he has to be king just because he was the LC of the NW and didn't want that either.

I get that, I'm just pointing out, ALOT of people are claiming he won't be king and when pressed on it they say, "He doesn't want to". 

There is precedence for this with Jon, where he doesn't want it, doesn't feel fit, but then takes the mantle when hoisted on him because he feels duty or honor bound, JUST as he did with the NW and the LC. My point is simply that having had that happen, there is precedence in his character to not want something and end up doing it anyhow, which is in direct contradiction to the "He doesn't want to," excuse of people.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×