Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Black Crow

Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its a straightforward question. Sacrificing virgins is too well established in folklore to be called into question, but where's the textual link between [pale] green copper domes and Green Men and where are they described as "tree tops" ? 

Before I address the parallel between the green copper domes and the Green Men, do you at least recognize that there does seem to be parallels described or hinted at in the Cat of the Canals chapter? Because if you don't see the parallels, then you won't see them for the Green Men.

Here is a paragraph from the third page of this chapter where Arya as Cat is taking note of some striking landmarks in Braavos. The names of the places as well as where they are located, are aligned with parallel landmarks in the Riverlands:

Quote

The Long Canal took Brusco's boat beneath the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth and the tall square towers of the Prestayns and Antaryons before passing under the immense grey arches of the sweetwater river to the district known as Silty Town, where the buildings were smaller and less grand. Later in the day the canal would be choked with serpent boats and barges, but in the predawn darkness they had the waterway almost to themselves. Brusco liked to reach the fishmarket just as the Titan roared to herald the coming of the sun. The sound would boom across the lagoon, faint with distance but still loud enough to wake the sleeping city.

Brusco’s route seems to replicate a trip from the Isle of Faces, up a fork of the Trident, continuing past and under the Frey Bridge, and toward the Neck.

Here are my interpretations for all the landmarks Arya notes:

The Long Canal = the Trident

the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth = the green men on the Isle of Faces

The two square towers, the Prestayns and Antaryons, straddling the canal = the Twin Towers of the Freys

The sweet water river aqueduct = the Frey's bridge between the two towers

Silty Town = the Neck

The Titan = the Water Tower, also Walder Frey himself

If I am correct in identifying the Palace of Truth as being a parallel to the Isle of Faces, then the green copper domes are either the weirwood trees on the island, or they are the Green Men themselves. The word "domes" can be both the tops of human heads or treetops. 

 

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I don’t always agree with you but I always appreciate your novel approach to the text. It helps me expand my own thinking.

This could be a good segue though. Without explanation, can you (or anyone for that matter!) break down your theories or predictions into bullet points that we could then reference once Winds/Dream is released? 

I’ll start:

1)R+L=J

2)Tower of Joy is in Dorne.

3)There was an inner and outer Kingsguard and group that was involved in Rhaegar’s Prince that Was Promised prophecy.

4)Tourney if Harrenhal and Lyanna’s disappearance are further apart than we are led to believe.

5)if Aegon is (f)Aegon, then I think he is Ashara Dayne’s son (not daughter) and Septa Lenore is Ashara Dayne.

You want my predictions? Or do you want text to support my reasoning? Because the latter would require a lot of text! I have written extensively on all of these subjects - entire essays, so I could just insert links to where I've already posted my reasoning?

1) I'm very firmly convinced that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara.

2) the tower of joy where Ned fought the Kingsguard was at Maegor's Holdfast during the Sack. If Ned went to Starfall, he sailed there from Storm's End. The Prince's Pass is not a road that leads to Starfall. Furthermore, I suspect the tower long fallen where Lyanna was found were the ruins of Whitewalls.

3) Rhaegar may have been interested in prophecy, but he already believed his son Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. He was with Elia on Dragonstone when Aegon was born so he could not have abducted Lyanna. After Elia was well enough, I theorize that they sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne to swap out baby Aegon for safety. Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have wanted his heir to be safe. I don't believe the Kingsguard helped him with anything. They were Aerys's men to command. Once Rhaegar and Elia returned from the south, Aerys gave them the job of keeping her guarded in Maegor's Holdfast inside the royal apartments.

4) The tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction are only two months or less apart. The tourney occurred in Nov/Dec 281 and Lyanna is noted as missing in Jan 282.

5) Young Griff is Aegon and Septa Lemore is Rhaella. Ashara remained at home as Wylla.

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, alienarea said:

In short, the dragon demands a virgin as a sacrifice?

Not virgin sacrifice. Child sacrifice = dragonseed.

I have contradicting ideas regarding Aerys and his "dragonseed". Rhaella's multiple miscarriages and infant deaths are highly suspect. We are told only death can pay for life, and Daenerys sacrificed her unborn son, plus Mirri, in order to hatch her dragon eggs.

We aren't given all of the details of the tragedy at Summerhal, but many readers suspect that Aegon V was trying to hatch dragon eggs. Rhaella was in attendance and pregnant with Rhaegar at the time. Ser Duncan the Tall is noted as saving some people from the fire, and I think he carried Rhaella out of the flames to safety at the cost of his own life. This would be an inverted parallel to when Jorah Mormont carried Daenerys into Mirri's tent. Jorah carried Daenerys in, while Duncan carried Rhaella out. Rhaego died and Rhaegar lived.

Rhaella lost eight children, but three survived: Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. There are three possible ways the eight perished:

1) they really did die of natural causes

2) somebody was poisoning Rhaella in order to prevent the "child of three" from occurring

3) Aerys was sacrificing his own children in attempts to hatch dragon eggs

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/19/2020 at 4:28 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, I don’t agree: I think the text clearly states he is speaking in reference to his or Jory’s current location in Kings Landing

And the ridge where the 8 cairns Ned built? Where's that exactly? Why did he build cairns for the dead and not proper funerals, since he was right there outside Maegor's Holdfast?
Is there even a 'ridge' near Maegor's Holdfast?

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I know you guys are poking fun at me.

I was genuinely poking fun before (not at you) , at a "you muggles" comment. But just because people question you doesn't mean they are poking fun. You have very interesting ideas, that are worth following up. People genuinely want to know the backing for them. Even me.

The possibility that, once shown the text you use, they don't agree, doesn't mean they were poking fun when they asked.

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I kind of feel like I'm dealing with Trump supporters over here! :lmao: 

Perhaps leave the politics out of it? 

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If the followers of Heresy aren't open-minded enough to seriously take a look at it, then who will?

Do you think its possible people may take a serious look and still disagree?

Is disagreement always because of close-mindedness?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This could be a good segue though. Without explanation, can you (or anyone for that matter!) break down your theories or predictions into bullet points that we could then reference once Winds/Dream is released? 

I’ll start:

I'll start by prefacing that IMO all ideas and predictions are up for redevelopment with new data. New book means new data means revised ideas and understanding.
For example: before ADwD I thought Ashara was fair-haired, purple eyed and probably was in love with Ned at some stage (though not N+A=J). Now I know she had dark hair and am fairly confident that she never had any significant relationship with Ned. Perhaps after TWoW I will be sure she had red hair and bore Ned twins? I very much doubt that now, but GRRM is good at this game...

Quote

1)R+L=J

Ditto.

Quote

2)Tower of Joy is in Dorne.

Ditto. In the Princess Pass. Likely an old abandoned watchtower in the foothills to one side, with an overview of the Pass but not easy access from the main travel route.

Quote

3)There was an inner and outer Kingsguard and group that was involved in Rhaegar’s Prince that Was Promised prophecy.

I wouldn't characterise them as "inner" and "outer". There was the KG, and some of them Rhaegar was close to and trusted, others he was not close to.

Quote

4)Tourney if Harrenhal and Lyanna’s disappearance are further apart than we are led to believe.

Well, it seemed to be about a year, initially, then newer data suggest much less, without being clear or definitive. Definitely more than two months.

Quote

5)if Aegon is (f)Aegon, then I think he is Ashara Dayne’s son (not daughter) and Septa Lenore is Ashara Dayne.

Aegon is either the Pisswater Prince, or actually Aegon. Lemore is Ashara, and believes (maybe has been deceived, maybe not) he really is Aegon. She was recruited by Varys to take the child into hidden exile in Essos - Connington was brought in to the plot later. Her own child either died, or was taken in by her Mother as Ashara's 'sister' Allyria.

And I'll repeat, any of that is subject to change with new data. Thats just the best, IMO, we have, based on the data we have so far.

Edited by corbon
minor tidying

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You want my predictions? Or do you want text to support my reasoning? Because the latter would require a lot of text! I have written extensively on all of these subjects - entire essays, so I could just insert links to where I've already posted my reasoning?

1) I'm very firmly convinced that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara.

2) the tower of joy where Ned fought the Kingsguard was at Maegor's Holdfast during the Sack. If Ned went to Starfall, he sailed there from Storm's End. The Prince's Pass is not a road that leads to Starfall. Furthermore, I suspect the tower long fallen where Lyanna was found were the ruins of Whitewalls.

3) Rhaegar may have been interested in prophecy, but he already believed his son Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. He was with Elia on Dragonstone when Aegon was born so he could not have abducted Lyanna. After Elia was well enough, I theorize that they sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne to swap out baby Aegon for safety. Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have wanted his heir to be safe. I don't believe the Kingsguard helped him with anything. They were Aerys's men to command. Once Rhaegar and Elia returned from the south, Aerys gave them the job of keeping her guarded in Maegor's Holdfast inside the royal apartments.

4) The tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction are only two months or less apart. The tourney occurred in Nov/Dec 281 and Lyanna is noted as missing in Jan 282.

5) Young Griff is Aegon and Septa Lemore is Rhaella. Ashara remained at home as Wylla.

Just predictions! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You want my predictions? Or do you want text to support my reasoning? Because the latter would require a lot of text! I have written extensively on all of these subjects - entire essays, so I could just insert links to where I've already posted my reasoning?

1) I'm very firmly convinced that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara.

2) the tower of joy where Ned fought the Kingsguard was at Maegor's Holdfast during the Sack. If Ned went to Starfall, he sailed there from Storm's End. The Prince's Pass is not a road that leads to Starfall. Furthermore, I suspect the tower long fallen where Lyanna was found were the ruins of Whitewalls.

3) Rhaegar may have been interested in prophecy, but he already believed his son Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. He was with Elia on Dragonstone when Aegon was born so he could not have abducted Lyanna. After Elia was well enough, I theorize that they sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne to swap out baby Aegon for safety. Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have wanted his heir to be safe. I don't believe the Kingsguard helped him with anything. They were Aerys's men to command. Once Rhaegar and Elia returned from the south, Aerys gave them the job of keeping her guarded in Maegor's Holdfast inside the royal apartments.

4) The tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction are only two months or less apart. The tourney occurred in Nov/Dec 281 and Lyanna is noted as missing in Jan 282.

5) Young Griff is Aegon and Septa Lemore is Rhaella. Ashara remained at home as Wylla.

Just predictions! 
 

@corbon We align quite a bit. And in reference to the cairns/Tower of Joy, I was arguing that the Tower of Joy was in Dorne and when he refers to the tower as far to the south, he was referencing his current location, whereas @Melifeather takes it as Winterfell. Just to clarify!

And to the people answering, your predictions don’t have to relate to mine. Those are just a few that I have. Any predictions referring to anything! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2020 at 10:59 AM, Black Crow said:

Now, taking this business of the Others a stage further. What is the nature and purpose of such a transformation?

Maester Luwin tells us of how the Tree-huggers could do marvellous things, one of them being the apparent ability to transform into trees and sich. This, both he and ourselves have rationalised as a combination of camouflage and glamours, but what if it isn't? What if the Green Men are actually transformed using that same magic, to become Others made of plant fibre rather than Ice.

In such a context this would fit in with the "guardian" role which we've speculated for the Walkers ?

 

I don't know what to think of the Green Men.  Foliate Man is a bit too Ent-ish for me.  I have wondered about Martin's use of the terms  Soldier Pine and Sentinel Tree though.  We know souls can go into trees and that bodies can be part of the tree as in weirwood tree.  And I wonder about the origins of the Order of the Green Hand.  We know that Howland has talked to the green men and that he can talk to trees.  I don't know if they are one and the same.  I imagine that anyone spending any length of time of the God's Isle might find their feet transforming into tree roots. 

On another subject, I am re-reading Heart of Darkness and I get it.   The Roosian/Coldhands, an unfathomable creature that shouldn't exist and Kurtz/Bloodraven, the skeletal creature who looks like he crawled out of a hole in the ground, full of bones.  The attack on the steamboat just as it arrives at Inner Station and the wights outside the cave of skulls.   I've started Part III.   

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

1)R+L=J

I don't think XYZ theories matter to me any more.  When Bran says that Ned's ghost told him something about Jon that was more terrible than the crow dreams; my mind immediately goes to the events around Lyanna's disappearance and Jon's conception.  A romance doesn't sound terrible to me.  I tend to think there is something horrific around those events that have nothing to do with Rhaegar.

I think Aegon isn't a fake and Ashera Dayne is Septa Lemore.

As to the location of the tower of joy; I think it's an old watchtower whose original purpose was to guard the entry to the Princes Pass.  So located on the border just north of the pass. 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Green Men are something very different than greenseers, but they still seem to be connected to weirwoods. The original Green Men are thousands of years old, whereas Bloodraven is around 125 years and said to be fading into the wood. We have no idea how old Coldhands is, but he did ride an elk and Bran noted that Green Men ride elks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2020 at 10:59 AM, Black Crow said:

Now, taking this business of the Others a stage further. What is the nature and purpose of such a transformation?

Maester Luwin tells us of how the Tree-huggers could do marvellous things, one of them being the apparent ability to transform into trees and sich. This, both he and ourselves have rationalised as a combination of camouflage and glamours, but what if it isn't? What if the Green Men are actually transformed using that same magic, to become Others made of plant fibre rather than Ice.

In such a context this would fit in with the "guardian" role which we've speculated for the Walkers ?

 

On this note, a prospect I've proposed in Heresy before is that white walkers and Green Men are created utilizing similar magic, and that the Green Men are to verdance, fertility, and Spring as the Others are to death, blight, and Winter--perhaps a riff on the Oak King/Holly King dynamic.

And, if I can be forgiven for dredging up other old ideas, if we interpret the Green Men as not just being druids wearing green robes and antlers, but as something more unnatural, I believe this legend Asha shares can be interpreted in a different light:

Quote

The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.

While this could just be a tale about the Wood Dancers that has grown fanciful in the re-telling, my inclination has been to read this as a legend about the Green Men, and the latter days of the war between the FM and CotF, just prior to the Pact.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

On this note, a prospect I've proposed in Heresy before is that white walkers and Green Men are created utilizing similar magic, and that the Green Men are to verdance, fertility, and Spring as the Others are to death, blight, and Winter--perhaps a riff on the Oak King/Holly King dynamic.

And, if I can be forgiven for dredging up other old ideas, if we interpret the Green Men as not just being druids wearing green robes and antlers, but as something more unnatural, I believe this legend Asha shares can be interpreted in a different light:

While this could just be a tale about the Wood Dancers that has grown fanciful in the re-telling, my inclination has been to read this as a legend about the Green Men, and the latter days of the war between the FM and CotF, just prior to the Pact.

Wouldn't disagree with this, and would add two points:

1. In British folklore, Green men are invariably depicted with faces "made" of leaves

2. Their nature is ambiguous in that they are not only associated with Spring, verdance and fertility, but are also associated with death. In Sir Gawain and the Green Knight for example the latter represents death

It can be argued therefore that the green men and the walkers may represent different manifestations of the same magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

While this could just be a tale about the Wood Dancers that has grown fanciful in the re-telling, my inclination has been to read this as a legend about the Green Men, and the latter days of the war between the FM and CotF, just prior to the Pact.

What comes to mind are the Others from the prologue of GoT.  The seems to be glamoured or use reflective armor.  Perhaps something similar is employed by the green men to appear like the surrounding environment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to bring up Revelations.  We all know there are 4 horsemen, and 3 are White, Red and Black.  But the 4th horse, who's rider is named Death, doesn't get a color, at least in modern times.  He is simply a pale horse, which to me seems a lot like another white horse.  The original color of the 4th horse is khlōros - as in chlorophyll and chlorine.  I've always believe this was meant to be a Green horse.

Edited by Brad Stark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I have to bring up Revelations.  We all know there are 4 horsemen, and 3 are White, Red and Black.  But the 4th horse, who's rider is named Death, doesn't get a color, at least in modern times.  He is simply a pale horse, which to me seems a lot like another white horse.  The original color of the 4th horse is khlōros - as in chlorophyll and chlorine.  I've always believe this was meant to be a Green horse.

It's not a reference and for sure not a scientific source, but listen to The Bollock Brothers - Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

Quote

 

A vegetation deity is a nature deity whose disappearance and reappearance, or life, death and rebirth, embodies the growth cycle of plants. In nature worship, the deity can be a god or goddess with the ability to regenerate itself. A vegetation deity is often a fertility deity. The deity typically undergoes dismemberment (see sparagmos), scattering, and reintegration, as narrated in a myth or reenacted by a religious ritual. The cyclical pattern is given theological significance on themes such as immortality, resurrection, and reincarnation.[1] Vegetation myths have structural resemblances to certain creation myths in which parts of a primordial being's body generate aspects of the cosmos, such as the Norse myth of Ymir.[2]

In mythography of the 19th and early 20th century, as for example in The Golden Bough of J.G. Frazer, the figure is related to the "corn spirit", "corn" in this sense meaning grain in general. That triviality is giving the concept its tendency to turn into a meaningless generality, as Walter Friedrich Otto remarked of trying to use a "name as futile and yet pretentious as 'Vegetation deity'".[3]

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetation_deity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/19/2020 at 12:17 PM, Melifeather said:

The Long Canal took Brusco's boat beneath the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth and the tall square towers of the Prestayns and Antaryons before passing under the immense grey arches of the sweetwater river to the district known as Silty Town, where the buildings were smaller and less grand.

 

On 1/20/2020 at 7:57 AM, Melifeather said:

I suspect Green Men are something very different than greenseers, but they still seem to be connected to weirwoods. The original Green Men are thousands of years old, whereas Bloodraven is around 125 years and said to be fading into the wood. We have no idea how old Coldhands is, but he did ride an elk and Bran noted that Green Men ride elks.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

The "antlers" may actually be tree branches, and maybe they are a hybrid of human and tree? It does sound a little too much fantasy and out of place with the relative realism of ASOIAF minus the magic, but we do have other transformed humans such as Melisandre who seems to be filled with fire and smoking, molten lava-like, black blood. Maybe the Green Men walk around in human form like Melisandre, but have green twig-like hair and a green cast to their skin?

The green copper domes of the Palace of Truth is intended to be a parallel to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. I had pointed out the parallel of domes to tree tops and the tops of heads, but "domes" are also historically symbolic of tombs. Mortuary tombs have long been built in a dome shape. There is also an association between domes and the sky and heavens. 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

The mortuary tradition has been expressed in domed mausoleums, martyriums, and baptisteries. The celestial symbolism was adopted by rulers in the Middle East to emphasize their divine legitimacy and was inherited by later civilizations down to the present day as a general symbol of governmental authority.

George's choice of "domes" to connect the Palace of Truth to the Isle of Faces implies that the Green Men are not alive in the human sense, but have everlasting life in a resurrection sense, which also ties in with Brad Stark's interpretation of the Greek word "khloros" which means:

Quote

 “pale, fresh, verdant, unripe, youthful, a new green shoot in the spring, greenish-yellow, pale green". In Greek mythology, the name Chloris, appears in a variety of contexts. Chloris was a Nymph associated with spring, flowers and new growth, believed to have dwelt in the Elysian Fields. Roman authors equated her with the goddess Flora, suggesting that the initial sound of her name may have been altered by Latin speakers (a popular etymology).

These descriptions of new growth remind me of the goddess Ēostre - better known as Easter. She is associated with rebirth and fertility, thus the connection to rabbits and eggs.

We have little information about what Green Men are, but we can examine the symbolism connected to them to theorize what else they are. Khloros, domes, antlers, weirwoods, resurrection, and new growth suggests that they were once human, but were transformed into something else.

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

We have little information about what Green Men are, but we can examine the symbolism connected to them to theorize what else they are. Khloros, domes, antlers, weirwoods, resurrection, and new growth suggests that they were once human, but were transformed into something else.

Yes, of course. For the most part, I am thinking of Cerunnos/Herne the Hunter/The Horned Lord as another form or aspect of the way the green man is depicted.  Since we have been introduced to Coldhands, who is acting as guide and protector to Bran; that fits with the notion that the green men on the God's  are protecting the weirwood or greenseers located there.  It's Val who brings up the Horned Lord and the Wildlings seem to have more history about past cycles of life, death and resurrection/rebirth.  

I've wondered if Coldhands is the Horned Lord dug up from under a glacier by Mance.  Recalling that Ygritte worries about digging up all those graves and what they might have released.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...