US Politics: Burning Down the Country

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Is there any snowball's chance that Biden would consider pardoning this motley crew of criminals and incompetents

Yes.  Not sure if it will really be necessary unless something else comes up, but he's not going to criminalize political opposition.  However justified it's a bad move.  Hell, "lock her up" was a rally cry but Hillary was still ten feet away from Trump when he was inagurated.

[Fez]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yes.  Not sure if it will really be necessary unless something else comes up, but he's not going to criminalize political opposition.  However justified it's a bad move.  Hell, "lock her up" was a rally cry but Hillary was still ten feet away from Trump when he was inagurated.

There's a difference between declining to open up prosecutions everywhere, and between issuing a blanket pardon. I can see the former happening, but not the later.

Because I do think some clear-as-day crimes are happening that can and should be prosecuted by Biden DOJ. Mostly around contract issuance and management and self-dealing though, not the violations of civil liberties that most people are more concerned about.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yes.  Not sure if it will really be necessary unless something else comes up, but he's not going to criminalize political opposition.  However justified it's a bad move.  Hell, "lock her up" was a rally cry but Hillary was still ten feet away from Trump when he was inagurated.

Personally, I think letting that horde of travesties walk is worse long and short term. The message is, the office of the Presidency is beyond the laws of men. Rules don't apply. I thought you lot fought your glorious revolution to get rid of a king (and pay taxes).

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Isn't a key reason they have all this stuff in the first place is because the military arms contractors way over-produced due to the War on Terror and then flogged it cheap to the police forces? The military doesn't want this stuff, they have no need for it.

I'm not sure about the background reasons contributing it aside from after 9/11, all the police had to do was ask for it, and they'd get it. So I'm not sure if it was a "hey, ask for it because we have a surplus" or a "hey, ask for it, and we'll make sure you get it because bin Laden." Either way, in this country, the biggest obstacle to actually fixing this (in my opinion) is the massive amounts of money being made to create it.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

God Cotton is such a sorry ass. Honestly, I'd like to smack the fuck out of him.

There's a growing list. Trump, McConnell, Cotton, and Navy Seal Eye Patch Man (who uses his service to own the libs).

Edit: And just a side note about Biden (and my feelings toward him)--I could rip on him all day, obviously, but anyone who tries to say there is no difference between Biden and Trump, especially after this last week, is out of their fucking mind. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Personally, I think letting that horde of travesties walk is worse long and short term. The message is, the office of the Presidency is beyond the laws of men. Rules don't apply. I thought you lot fought your glorious revolution to get rid of a king (and pay taxes).

I think that Biden could easily pardon Trump for various things done as a POTUS, but not any of his other crimes. I think he'd likely do this because he wants the country to move on and heal and come together, and this would be an olive branch to the conservatives who would be assuming that this would be the dawn of a new dictatorship or whatever. 

I think he would be wise to do so on the grounds that Trump takes a public pledge never to seek office again. Not that that would be worth much, mind you, but it'd be good press. 

(and again, this is some alternate earth where Trump doesn't win or refuse to leave the office)

[Altherion]

51 minutes ago, sologdin said:

you mean, he's going full metal buzz windrip, and will accordingly take the legislature and the supreme court into 'protective custody' for the duration of the insurrection, ruling by decree in the state of exception that coincidentally ends up being indefinite?

No, he's going to talk tough, but refrain from actually doing anything beyond staging photo ops. Once the situation has calmed down, he will try to take credit for calming it down and blaming the Democratic mayors and governors of the places with the worst rioting and looting for not being tough enough.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

If you're referring to the Hunter S. Thompson platform I referenced, I should add that Thompson had a two-step process for police violence. Cops should never be armed in public, he said, but anyone who hurt a cop would have hell rained upon them -- I believe he invoked mace bombs and wolverines as part of the response. So, not exactly a full demilitarization.

I do think police militarization has gone too far, but I don't know how to stuff the horse back in the barn on that one. Obama tried to stop that with an executive order, but of course Trump cancelled his orders (another reason it's dumb to just give up on the Presidency and rely on a theoretical Democrats Senate to rein him in).

I guess we need a series of national laws about policing standards, but there is likely not the political will to do that even among Democrats, and you can't wave a wand and change police culture. It's doesn't even seem like mayors and police chiefs can get their departments in line. The rot in the police unions is too great.

Yeah, I don't know that we can stuff it back into the barn either. It's truly terrifying. I suppose having access to equipment makes sense (we do have serious issues in our society like school shooters), but even then, we've seen modern police pulling things out of the "break only in case of emergency" box just for the hell of it. No knock warrants for a guy maybe selling drugs being issued by heavily armed SWAT teams. Shit like that.

One thing that gives me hope is that four years ago, this was not even considered a problem. People are changing their mind.s

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Personally, I think letting that horde of travesties walk is worse long and short term. The message is, the office of the Presidency is beyond the laws of men. Rules don't apply. I thought you lot fought your glorious revolution to get rid of a king (and pay taxes).

So I think it's already much too late, but if this band of thieves walk free then there's no reclaiming the Repulic. It cannot be precedent that such shameless corruption is excusable, for any reason. Because someone with a working brain is going to come along and take the next step.

Tyrants need to be made examples of. So that other ambitious men may learn fear.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Fez said:

There's a difference between declining to open up prosecutions everywhere, and between issuing a blanket pardon.

Sure.  That's..not what I was think about or referring to though.

5 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Personally, I think letting that horde of travesties walk is worse long and short term. The message is, the office of the Presidency is beyond the laws of men. Rules don't apply. I thought you lot fought your glorious revolution to get rid of a king (and pay taxes).

I don't feel morally inferior to the Founders of all people simply because I don't think it's a good idea to start weaponizing the DOJ against your political opposition - at least to the point of prosecuting a former president without, ya know, him doing something more outrageous than locking up all Asians on the pacific coast during a war.  Ford was right to pardon Nixon, even if it cost him an election.  Biden prosecuting Trump ain't gonna help anybody other than twitter warriors.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

41 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That's what Trump seems to think the entire second article of the US Constitution says.

I think it extends further than that. Trump is a rich brat who was never told no. And even when he comply fucked up, he was still handed a golden ticket out of his bad situation. There may not have been a human being in modern American history that has failed upward more than Donald J. Trump. 

[Martell Spy]

Ah, so this is the deal. All religious people must be grateful and get in line, no matter what goes down. They owe it to Trump.

Quote

 

After listing off various actions Trump has taken in the name of “religious liberty”—implying that all clergy should be grateful for his help—Conway addressed Budde directly.

“That is not ‘her church,’ that is not ‘her bible,’” Conway said. “We don’t look into other people’s hearts and souls and discern and judge what their faith is.” 

Then, after saying we can’t pretend to know why the president “felt compelled to walk there” and hold a bible in the air awkwardly, Conway did just that. 

“That is a symbol to everyone that we will not allow arsonists and anarchists who set that fire ablaze, who demean the memory of those that lost their lives in the name of their respective faith and religions, we won't allow them to dissuade us from practicing our religion.” she said, failing to note that members of the church were among those tear-gassed on Monday. 

Before the interview was over, Conway made sure to get in one last dig at Joe Biden, who promised action on police brutality and systemic racism in a speech earlier in the day. “Joe, you’ve been here 40 years in this city,” she said snidely. “What do you mean you're going to do it now?”

 

Kellyanne Conway Lashes Out at Bishop Who Condemned Trump’s Church Photo-Op
“That is not ‘her church,’ that is not ‘her bible,’” Conway said. “We don’t look into other people’s hearts and souls and discern and judge what their faith is.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kellyanne-conway-lashes-out-at-bishop-mariann-budde-who-condemned-

[Fury Resurrected]

16 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

There's a growing list. Trump, McConnell, Cotton, and Navy Seal Eye Patch Man (who uses his service to own the libs).

Edit: And just a side note about Biden (and my feelings toward him)--I could rip on him all day, obviously, but anyone who tries to say there is no difference between Biden and Trump, especially after this last week, is out of their fucking mind. 

As someone in Minneapolis with an extremely lefty mayor (no republicans even ran for mayor to my knowledge. The top eight polling mayoral candidates were all left) and a democratic governor and a democratic AG and two democratic senators- living in Ilhan Omar’s district- I honestly cannot imagine the use of force on these demonstrations being higher under republicans. In places that are red this is happening, use of force hasn’t been more extreme than here in MPLS. I don’t think there is anyone left in the city who doesn’t know someone who has been brutalized by the police.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't feel morally inferior to the Founders of all people simply because I don't think it's a good idea to start weaponizing the DOJ against your political opposition - at least to the point of prosecuting a former president without, ya know, him doing something more outrageous than locking up all Asians on the pacific coast during a war.  Ford was right to pardon Nixon, even if it cost him an election.  Biden prosecuting Trump ain't gonna help anybody other than twitter warriors.

This isn't about some petty vendetta or something. Even if the Cucker Tarzan (TM) at Fox News would scream that. It's simply restoring the rule of law (or at least trying to). The shenanigans with Flynn, Stone and Manafort have to be properly investigated. Not to mention Rudy's Ukraine adventures, and the stuff in the Mueller report. You just can't pretend none of that happened.

[GrimTuesday]

Trump is out there openly walking the road to fascism, and Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer released a strongly worded letter about Trump being a bad leader. I get that they don't really have the tools to constrain him, but it's just ridiculous. The House is on a god damn vacation again I mean what the fuck is wrong with these people? The Senate keeps confirming judges and Nancy sent folks home and responds to Trump's 100 yard pilgrimage to pulling out her bible as if that means fucking anything.

I know I complain about Pelosi a lot, and I try to not sound like a broken record, but Democratic leadership has been so feckless under Trump and I'm sick of it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

35 minutes ago, DMC said:

Don't shit on the contributions of thousands of people much smarter than you or I because you don't "feel" like it's made an impact on you.  It's childish.

Smarter? No doubt. More clever? Debatable. Actually being able to talk to a human being? Very debatable.

I've met many incredibly smart people who couldn't tell a kid how to tie their shoe. My statistics professor couldn't answer a single follow up question that broke with his lecture plan. 

Quote

Same thing could be said about Dubya.  And while I wasn't alive/around at the time, I'm sure people said the same thing about Reagan.  Dude flagrantly committed treason with Iran/Contra and the only official that actually got stung was Olly North.  Because Bush I pardoned all the others.  Trump is horrid and all, but let's not act like the GOP hasn't been the white supremacist AND flagrantly corrupt AND almost self-intentionally incompetent party for generations now.

First, Iran-Contra will always be one of the most bizarre scandals of all time, because how at every level you're just like WTF????

I would argue with Trump the problem is he has no regard for anything other than himself, so he is willing to let all the worst parts of the GOP come out and play, and the latter knows the sun is setting on them if they don't radically change things. That's why Republican Senators are saying it was cool to gas a crowd so Trump could wave a Bible around at a church.

Quote

Duchovny was pretty funny in Zoolander.

I must have not seen the movie in a long time, because I don't even remember his cameo. 

But Billy Zane is a cool fucking guy! He was great in two terrible movies (Demon Night and The Phantom), and he was solid in Titanic, despite the bad hair piece, but man, going through his IMDB, he's gotten a lot of work, but it's mostly all bad.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, GrimTuesday said:

Trump is out there openly walking the road to fascism, and Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer released a strongly worded letter about Trump being a bad leader. I get that they don't really have the tools to constrain him, but it's just ridiculous. The House is on a god damn vacation again I mean what the fuck is wrong with these people? The Senate keeps confirming judges and Nancy sent folks home and responds to Trump's 100 yard pilgrimage to pulling out her bible as if that means fucking anything.

I know I complain about Pelosi a lot, and I try to not sound like a broken record, but Democratic leadership has been so feckless under Trump and I'm sick of it.

What should they do? The House has nothing to do with confirming judges and Schumer might as well be Aimee for all the power he has. This road was paved in 2015 and 16, my man. Sounds like you're just lashing out again.

 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

This isn't about some petty vendetta or something

I didn't think it was.  My point/argument is simply that prosecuting the preceding president is a bad idea, and sets a precedent you know full well the GOP will abuse the next time they're in office.

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Smarter? No doubt. More clever? Debatable. Actually being able to talk to a human being? Very debatable.

I make fun of the social ineptitude of academics as much as anybody, but that doesn't change the fact you're shitting on an entire discipline because you're too lazy - or perhaps incapable - to understand what we have to say.

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I must have not seen the movie in a long time, because I don't even remember his cameo.

He was a former hand model that helped unravel the conspiracy for Stiller and his wife.  Kinda like a deepthroat character, and his hand was protected in glass.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

18 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

As someone in Minneapolis with an extremely lefty mayor (no republicans even ran for mayor to my knowledge. The top eight polling mayoral candidates were all left) and a democratic governor and a democratic AG and two democratic senators- living in Ilhan Omar’s district- I honestly cannot imagine the use of force on these demonstrations being higher under republicans. In places that are red this is happening, use of force hasn’t been more extreme than here in MPLS. I don’t think there is anyone left in the city who doesn’t know someone who has been brutalized by the police.

I agree, and I mean more how Trump is itching to get the military onto our streets. That he wants use of force to not be rubber bullets, but real bullets, etc. The police are monsters who have long been protected by all sides. I'm with you. In terms of Trump, I'm more worried about the actual military occupation of our cities. Then again, they're less trigger happy than the fucking cops. Or maybe not. Who knows anymore.

After active duty, I went into the National Guard to pay for college. I was able to transfer out of the engineers into Public Affairs, so I thought I'd be sitting pretty. Right after that was Sept. 11, and National Guard was mobilized for temporary airport security. Our unit went around to state units activating for airport duty, and we were instructing them how to interact with the media and with citizens. You know, shit like, "you are always polite. Citizens technically outrank you. Only answer media questions in _______ way." After our presentation, some rural gomer raises his hand and asks, "So, if a person gets mouthy or pushy, do we have permission to return fire?"

My first sergeant leaned over and whispered to me, "These are your people now." 

[Rorshach]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I didn't think it was.  My point/argument is simply that prosecuting the preceding president is a bad idea, and sets a precedent you know full well the GOP will abuse the next time they're in office.

I guess the question boils down to which precedent you believe is worse: prosecuting past presidents, or allowing flagrant abuse of power. 

From where I sit, both have the potential to backfire dramatically.