U.S. Politics: Speak, Shriek, or Squeak! Whatever Technique You Seek in Critique of the Isogeneic Freak.

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Can we believe polls? They were wrong last time. As well as other things, the west seems to have lost the ability to poll! 

 

The general polls were off by 2%, which is literally what they've been off by for every election - or worse!

State polls were inaccurate, but only off by a few %. 

Internal polls were SUPER wrong, but that's not that surprising. 

[Mexal]

6 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Can we believe polls? They were wrong last time. As well as other things, the west seems to have lost the ability to poll! 

Polls weren't that far off. They just missed in a few states (e.g., Wisconsin, Ohio) and were pretty close nationally. They were also pretty close in 2018. Going to assume we can mostly trust them, though also remember there is a margin of error and that structurally, Dems need to win by a lot more nationally to win the EC.

[Martell Spy]

20 minutes ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

I agree with the "fuck George W. Bush" sentiment, but fundraising for Republicans in 2018 is far from first on the list of his enormities. 

Oh, I'm quite aware. My political awakening came during the Bush era. I was mostly responding to this. He can't be on the right side of history if he was fundraising for the fascists as of last election. He may have helped keep in office Senators that voted on the impeachment.

George W. Bush finally steps onto the right side of history

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/opinions/george-w-bush-steps-onto-the-right-side-of-history-brown/index.html

Quote

 

But the real shocker came Tuesday evening: Trump's behavior caused former President George W. Bush to speak out, issuing a statement with his wife, Laura Bush.
 

Yes. That George W. Bush. The man famous for countless black deaths that occurred on his watch almost 15 years ago, due to Hurricane Katrina, because his administration could not handle a natural disaster in a single state. That George W. Bush has decided to be on the right side of history. And this is quite telling of the moment that we are in. George W. Bush is asking "How do we end systemic racism in our society?" He says we need to listen to those on the ground dealing with this. And he's right.

2020 means all Americans are deciding whether to be on the side of the race-baiting President, or the American people who are protesting to make our democracy inclusive for black Americans.

George W. Bush made the right choice. As he told us Tuesday: "Achieving justice for all is the duty of all."
Which side will you be on?

 

 

[Guy Kilmore]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

One of things this case makes clear is that legislation needs to be passed to make officers liable for not acting in these kinds of cases. Because, reading Minnestoa's current complicity statue, the state isn't going to have an easy case holding the other 3 accountable for murder.

Indeed.  It does help that they were in direct violation of their policy and procedures, so there is something, but yes it will be a hard hill to climb.

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I've argued for a long time, look how Germans teach their kids about the Holocaust verse how we teach our kids, specifically white kids, doubly so in the South, about slavery. They seem to be deeply embarrassed about what they did. But here, that black person should have just listened to the cops.

Oh, wait. 

Native genocide too.

And $100 bucks says GW Bush still votes Republican down the ticket.  Wtf is wrong with people to be throwing him a gold star for showing basic human decency.  Dude is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

[Guy Kilmore]

3 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Native genocide too.

And $100 bucks says GW Bush still votes Republican down the ticket.  Wtf is wrong with people to be throwing him a gold star for showing basic human decency.  Dude is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Hey, Fuck George Bush

 

Here is the but, I have been having remarkable conversations with my fox news watching mom about race and her needle is moving, stuff like this helps those people move the needle.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Guy Kilmore said:

Hey, Fuck George Bush

 

Here is the but, I have been having remarkable conversations with my fox news watching mom about race and her needle is moving, stuff like this helps those people move the needle.

Well, in that case, maybe some good can come of it.  Doesn't absolve him of anything though when he helped stoked the racist flames beforehand.  If he can turn two million reliable GOP voters to sit this one out I'll send him a birthday card.

[Guy Kilmore]

6 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Well, in that case, maybe some good can come of it.  Doesn't absolve him of anything though when he helped stoked the racist flames beforehand.  If he can turn two million reliable GOP voters to sit this one out I'll send him a birthday card.

Not saying it does...

[Maithanet]

George w bush can redeem his post presidential legacy.  His presidential legacy is irredeemable, and we would be foolish to forget it.

[Martell Spy]

10 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Well, in that case, maybe some good can come of it.  Doesn't absolve him of anything though when he helped stoked the racist flames beforehand.  If he can turn two million reliable GOP voters to sit this one out I'll send him a birthday card.

Well, I think it'd be different if he endorsed Biden and vowed not to fund-raise for Republicans in 2020. But he hasn't done that, has he? I was a little shocked to be honest, when I read he had done that in 2018. I guess I shouldn't have been. It's who he is. I doubt some comment he makes is going to off-set the damage he is going to do fundraising in 2020 for the GOP. I mean, at what point does he stop?

And I'm not even bringing up anything that happened years ago during his Presidency. My FU is based on his recent actions. I don't know that he actively wants fascists to take over this country, but it has not got in to his head yet that his actions are aiding that project.

 

 

[GrimTuesday]

19 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

George w bush can redeem his post presidential legacy.  His presidential legacy is irredeemable, and we would be foolish to forget it.

War criminals don't get rehabilitated they go to The Hague. Being complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people does not go away when you retire.

I like the cut of Puerto Rico's jib, time for statehood.

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

22 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Not saying it does...

I know.  There's just a lot of whitewashing of W's record, may have been a little overzealous of nipping it in the bud.  Just think he has a long way to go before he gets any kind of credit for anything, while the media has been quick to grant him that the last 4 years.  Didn't mean to imply you were doing that at all (the "Fuck George Bush" opener was clear,)

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Chauvin is clearly guilty under the 3rd degree Murder Charge. Added to the facts you mentioned is the fact that he used a hold that was not authorized by the police department as it was known to be dangerous. That proves he acted with a "depraved heart" which was a standard under the old common law of murder, which it appears Minnesota has dived between 2nd and 3rd degree.

For second degree, intentionally is defined as has a "purpose to do a thing" and honestly I think the state is going have a harder time getting there.

A good lawyer could argue that he was taunting the crowd with his actions, and let's be clear, he was. Such action implies intent.

He may not of truly intended to kill Floyd at first, but his actions suggest he knew what he was doing, well after the man probably died, and kept doing it.

I frankly think it's murder in the first degree, but whatever charge they can make stick, go with it. 

[Castellan]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m not Protestant.  But I do recognize my privilege.  I was pointing out that compared to other parts of the world religion hasn’t been the prime mover in most US civil strife.  

That point of view could easily be a result of the privilege I enjoy.

This is not a counter argument just a note - Minneapolis has a interesting history of anti semitism and racism with developers building desirable suburbs from the turn of the century which excluded people on race and ethnicity. These restrictive wordings were in place in some deeds until 2017. It had a very active anti semitic organisation (the Silver Legion) for the period between the wars and up until some time after the second world war. I doubt there was much open 'civil strife' just people quietly struggling against this through their own organisations.

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

A good lawyer could argue that he was taunting the crowd with his actions, and let's be clear, he was. Such action implies intent.

He may not of truly intended to kill Floyd at first, but his actions suggest he knew what he was doing, well after the man probably died, and kept doing it.

I frankly think it's murder in the first degree, but whatever charge they can make stick, go with it. 

In order to prove murder in the 1st you are going to have prove premeditation. The state is going to have extremely hard time proving that. And if he didn't truly intend to kill floyd, then that takes out a 2nd degree charge. There is a difference between "with purpose" and "should have known" or "evincing a depraved mind" for purposes of scienter and its that difference in scienter that distinguishes 2nd and 3rd degree murder. That he should have known what he was doing was extremely dangerous of course supports a 3rd degree charge, which I don't see how he could possibly get out of given all the the evidence.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

Native genocide too.

And $100 bucks says GW Bush still votes Republican down the ticket.  Wtf is wrong with people to be throwing him a gold star for showing basic human decency.  Dude is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Correct.

And it's just a sign of how far the right has sunk. A man who should go down as one of the five worst Presidents ever looks like a saint compared to this piece of shit though. Because Donald J. Trump, is the worst President ever. Other men have sins, and yes sadly, just men, but he is literally the only President that didn't care about anyone but himself. We've had some horrific narcissists over the centuries, but he is the absolute worst, and sadly it all happened at a time in which we needed someone who is, IDK, somewhat capable? 

I know who I'd elect from the forum, but she hasn't been around in a while.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

In order to prove murder in the 1st you are going to have prove premeditation. The state is going to have extremely hard time proving that. And if he didn't truly intend to kill floyd, then that takes out a 2nd degree charge. There is a difference between "with purpose" and "should have known" for purposes of scienter and its that difference in scienter that disquinishes 2nd and 3rd degree murder. That he should have known what he was doing was extremely dangerous of course supports a 3rd degree charge.

Like I said, I am fine with the charge you think you can get over the one that makes people feel good. You have a medical professional begging to help, and you have a man looking at that person and putting more pressure on a man's neck. In a better world, that's murder in the first. It would be if you or I was doing the same thing. But some how we let the agents of the state just do as they please. 

I think a lot of things that are happening here in the aftermath are radical, good and bad, but overall they're necessary. No one deserves to get their ticket punched out like that. It's not fucking right. So if it's first, second third degree or some form of manslaughter, all four of them should rot in jail for a long fucking time. They stole a man's life over nothing. NOTHING. 

The city will never be the same, and I say good. Fuck those that don't. 

[OldGimletEye]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think a lot of things that are happening here in the aftermath are radical, good and bad, but overall they're necessary. No one deserves to get their ticket punched out like that. It's not fucking right. So if it's first, second third degree or some form of manslaughter, all four of them should rot in jail for a long fucking time. They stole a man's life over nothing. NOTHING. 

I agree that all four should go to jail. Those other officers should have put a stop to it. Once Chauvin used an unauthorized hold, that should have been a signal for the other officers to do something. But, I'm afraid given how the  complicity statue is written Minnesota they might get off the hook, which you know stinks. And if they do, the people in Minnesota and everywhere need to push for laws that will officers accountable in these situations. If police officers can't be persuaded to act for moral/ethical reasons, maybe a law which makes them clearly liable will.

[ThinkerX]

Well, the demonstrations, in vastly tamed down form, made it my corner of the country - semi-rural Alaska.  About a hundred chanting people with signs at the corners of a major intersection hereabouts.  This area is about 90% white with most of the remainder Alaskan native or Asian, but yes i did spot a dozen odd 'people of color' among the protesters while waiting for the light to change (parking near the intersection is difficult).  What especially stood out to me, though, was the protesters age - the vast majority were teenagers.  High school kids.  Maybe half a dozen people over the age of twenty, and none over thirty.  Stands out because this area is 'going gray' - literally a quarter of the populace is of Social Security age, and another quarter (including me) are within a decade of that bracket.  Didn't see any cops, but they could have easily been tucked away in the parking lot of one of the neighboring stores.

[Fragile Bird]

From what I heard from lawyers on CNN the last couple of days, there would be no way to convict Chauvin of 1st degree murder, because the prosecutor would have to show premeditation. These were cops who answered a call to investigate a crime, they didn't know who the accused was, how could it have been premeditated? They talked to each other on the way there and said "let's murder the guy if we catch him"?

Also, that the 3rd degree murder charge was a mistake, said the prosecutors. Perhaps it was used as a placeholder while they nailed down the facts. But as one prosecutor said, Minnesota is different from other states because of the idea a depraved act has to be shown to convict, something so recklessly done it meets that standard. There were two examples given, someone shooting a gun into a crowd without caring the shot could kill someone, or driving a car down the wrong side of the highway. Kneeling on Floyd's neck was not that kind of reckless and he would not be convicted of 3rd degree murder.

As for the other three officers, if Chauvin is convicted they'll be convicted with him, and they'll face the same sentence. You know that if there's a bank robbery and one of the robbers shoots and kills a teller or anyone else, all the robbers will face the same sentence, even the driver of the getaway car who was waiting outside and had nothing to do with the killing. Nothing, that is, except that he was a participant in the robbery and therefore just as guilty.