Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[frenin]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A little lesson from Cat for all those people who think Robert's bastards could 'prove' the twincest:

*I corrected the age to reflect Edric's actual age in ACoK.

- Brienne is an unbiased party, she didn't have a doubt after seeing Gendry.

- That the Lannisters and allies would call it bs is hardly surprising, the point is what people that weren't favoring either party at the moment would say, and judging by Brienne's reaction, the outcome is clear as day.

- Unless there has been more than two Stark-Tully marriages and those marriages were all Stark looking kids and no one bat an eye when Cat started bringing auburn haired kids to the world, it's a false comparative. 

The point is that Robert's bastards all come out the very same way, so did all the Lannister-Baratheon children. 

So no, the evidences are still pretty solid.

[Stannis Baratheon*]

 

Is it just me, or would Stannis be a Better King than Renly, More Experience Leading and Ruling, A Good Military Commander, Excellent Judge of Character, Takes the Job Seriously. I Think The Reason People Fail To See This Is Because Renly Is More Charismatic, But is that Really Enough to Make Him A Better King Than Stannis?

[Daemon of the Blacks]

On 7/26/2020 at 6:08 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

She had money and she had Jaime. What was stopping her from fleeing to Essos?

I think Tywin Lannister would have been one think that certainly stopped her from fleeing to Essos. Its also technically his money so I doubt she could have used it to humiliate her father like that. 

[Lord Varys]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:57 PM, frenin said:

- Brienne is an unbiased party, she didn't have a doubt after seeing Gendry.

- That the Lannisters and allies would call it bs is hardly surprising, the point is what people that weren't favoring either party at the moment would say, and judging by Brienne's reaction, the outcome is clear as day.

- Unless there has been more than two Stark-Tully marriages and those marriages were all Stark looking kids and no one bat an eye when Cat started bringing auburn haired kids to the world, it's a false comparative. 

The point is that Robert's bastards all come out the very same way, so did all the Lannister-Baratheon children. 

So no, the evidences are still pretty solid.

Those are all non-points to the topic at hand since nobody doubts that people knowing Renly or Robert closely might conclude Gendry might be a Baratheon bastard. But this doesn't mean they will believe the blond children of the king resembling their blond mother are not the king's children.

The idea that anybody would bother reading or considering an old bood an authority on this is equally silly - which is why nobody ever actually cited the book as 'evidence'.

Instead, fathers resembling their mothers instead of their fathers would likely dismiss any such 'evidence' because on that basis people could try to claim they must be bastards, too.

And Brienne is not an unbiased party in all this - she was anti-Lannister from the start, first siding with the traitor Renly and then with the traitorous Starks.

[Orm]

5 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

think Tywin Lannister would have been one think that certainly stopped her from fleeing to Essos. Its also technically his money so I doubt she could have used it to humiliate her father like that. 

Tywin may seethe....... But is he gonna send Gregor after his own kids?....... Also Jaime seems to have suggested this idea to Cersei as well........

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Those are all non-points to the topic at hand since nobody doubts that people knowing Renly or Robert closely might conclude Gendry might be a Baratheon bastard. But this doesn't mean they will believe the blond children of the king resembling their blond mother are not the king's children.

Sure they will, Brienne only needs to take one good look at Gendry to understand the sham, it's completely wishful thinking that any non biased party are going to dismiss it at hand.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that anybody would bother reading or considering an old bood an authority on this is equally silly - which is why nobody ever actually cited the book as 'evidence'.

Because people in Westeros don't read?? Or because the book is lying??

Ned bothered, so did Varys, Jon Arryn and Stannis. So again, wishful thinking.

Both Ned and Varys cite the books as evidence.

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead, fathers resembling their mothers instead of their fathers would likely dismiss any such 'evidence' because on that basis people could try to claim they must be bastards, too.

People understand that children may resemble the mother instead of the father... That's the very reason why Cersei could pass her children as legit for twelve years, what they won't understand however is why all of Robert's bastards come in a certain way and how all the Baratheon-Lannister children come in a certain way and Cersei's come completely different.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Brienne is not an unbiased party in all this - she was anti-Lannister from the start, first siding with the traitor Renly and then with the traitorous Starks.

Brienne doesn't give a damn whether the children are legit or not, just as Renly didn't give a damn whether the children were legit or just as the Starks don't give a damn whether the children  are legit or not. Hell, Cat discovers by Jaime's own mouth that the children are bastards and i can't even tell if she shared that info with Robb and even if she did, it's clear that Robb shrugged it off.

None of them has a single reason to be biased.

[Orm]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Those are all non-points to the topic at hand since nobody doubts that people knowing Renly or Robert closely might conclude Gendry might be a Baratheon bastard. But this doesn't mean they will believe the blond children of the king resembling their blond mother are not the king's children.

The idea that anybody would bother reading or considering an old bood an authority on this is equally silly - which is why nobody ever actually cited the book as 'evidence'.

All of these are non-factors to those who are already in a side....... But one person who looks at this without interest would know the truth........

 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead, fathers resembling their mothers instead of their fathers would likely dismiss any such 'evidence' because on that basis people could try to claim they must be bastards, too.

I am sure Robert looked like his dad and his dad also looked like his dad........

 

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Brienne is not an unbiased party in all this - she was anti-Lannister from the start, first siding with the traitor Renly and then with the traitorous Starks.

When she was figuring out that the Lannister bastards were in fact incest bred bastards........ She clearly wasn't biased.......

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I think Tywin Lannister would have been one think that certainly stopped her from fleeing to Essos. Its also technically his money so I doubt she could have used it to humiliate her father like that. 

He could have tried, but he was in Casterly a Rock and she was in Kings Landing with Jaime. The truth is that she married Robert, because she wanted the power and prestige of being the Queen, without any of the responsibilities.

[R2D]

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He could have tried, but he was in Casterly a Rock and she was in Kings Landing with Jaime. The truth is that she married Robert, because she wanted the power and prestige of being the Queen, without any of the responsibilities.

So according to you she should just run off to a place where she had no power or money so that she doesn't get raped.

[Orm]

2 hours ago, R2D said:

So according to you she should just run off to a place where she had no power or money so that she doesn't get raped.

If Rob truly tortured her( the case isn't likely and is pretty much the opposite of the truth) then why not? Unless your a power hungry Murderous psychopath...... Oh wait......she is......

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, R2D said:

So according to you she should just run off to a place where she had no power or money so that she doesn't get raped.

1) She has plenty of money and she has Jaime.

2) I didn’t say anything about rape. Robert could have married almost anyone else and had a decent marriage by Westerosi standards. I like Cersei. She’s an interesting character, but I have no interest in apologetics. She’s one of the worst people in Westeros and significantly worse than Robert by almost every metric.

[Lee-Sensei]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those are all non-points to the topic at hand since nobody doubts that people knowing Renly or Robert closely might conclude Gendry might be a Baratheon bastard. But this doesn't mean they will believe the blond children of the king resembling their blond mother are not the king's children.

The idea that anybody would bother reading or considering an old bood an authority on this is equally silly - which is why nobody ever actually cited the book as 'evidence'.

Instead, fathers resembling their mothers instead of their fathers would likely dismiss any such 'evidence' because on that basis people could try to claim they must be bastards, too.

And Brienne is not an unbiased party in all this - she was anti-Lannister from the start, first siding with the traitor Renly and then with the traitorous Starks.

They can’t test DNA, but there’s a reason that it’s become an open secret. When every Baratheon and every Baratheon and Lannister pairing produces children with black hair and blue eyes, but Cersei’s children all look like Lannisters... people are going to believe that they weren’t Roberts kids.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

They can’t test DNA, but there’s a reason that it’s become an open secret. When every Baratheon and every Baratheon and Lannister pairing produces children with black hair and blue eyes, but Cersei’s children all look like Lannisters... people are going to believe that they weren’t Roberts kids.

It has become a sort of widespread rumor because Stannis has been sending his letters.

But the story as such didn't influence any political decision of the people involved, neither those joining with Joffrey/Tommen nor those siding with Stannis.

It is basically a non-issue politically.

[Ghostlydragon]

On 7/31/2020 at 4:45 AM, Stannis Baratheon* said:

 

Is it just me, or would Stannis be a Better King than Renly, More Experience Leading and Ruling, A Good Military Commander, Excellent Judge of Character, Takes the Job Seriously. I Think The Reason People Fail To See This Is Because Renly Is More Charismatic, But is that Really Enough to Make Him A Better King Than Stannis?

That is exactly why Renly would be a terrible king. I don't know how he had this belief that people would love him but he would be like Robert and only interested in having fun throwing parties and tournaments. Stannis quite clearly knows how to run a kingdom. Obviously he took his education far more seriously.

[R2D]

2 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

That is exactly why Renly would be a terrible king. I don't know how he had this belief that people would love him but he would be like Robert and only interested in having fun throwing parties and tournaments. Stannis quite clearly knows how to run a kingdom. Obviously he took his education far more seriously.

Because people did love Renly. People want fun kings who throw tourneys and feasts not killjoys like Stannis.

[Trigger Warning]

7 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

That is exactly why Renly would be a terrible king. I don't know how he had this belief that people would love him but he would be like Robert and only interested in having fun throwing parties and tournaments. Stannis quite clearly knows how to run a kingdom. Obviously he took his education far more seriously.

Renly that attends small council meetings in Robert's absence and is explicitly described as "neither glutton nor drunkard." by Catelyn? The belief that people love Renly is throughout the text, the common people love him, prominent lords from the Reach love him, his men abandon Stannis at the sight of someone wearing his armour, he gathered 100,000 men to his cause despite being the third in line whilst Stannis hires mercenaries and lucks out by acquiring a magical assassin. To deny that people love Renly is to deny the text itself and how does Stannis clearly know how to run a kingdom, where have we seen him running a kingdom? 

One of the first things we see Stannis do on Dragonstone is martyr a knight and his sons for the dominant religion of the Seven Kingdoms. 

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

That is exactly why Renly would be a terrible king. I don't know how he had this belief that people would love him

People did love him. Stannis himself says that, as does Penrose, as does Tyrion.

But even if we did not have multiple characters pointing this out, it should be clear to all with Renly able to raise the largest army in the history of Westeros to usurp the throne.

Quote

 

but he would be like Robert and only interested in having fun throwing parties and tournaments.

That is not entirely true. Who do you think was running the kingdom after Arryn died, Robert on his way to Ned's and Stannis sulking on Dragonstone?

Renly rules a larger kingdom than Stannis, has done more to get along with neighbouring Lords than Stannis ever did. He seems to know how to rule a kingdom successfully. He also seems to appreciate the art of compromise, something that Stannis struggles to do, or only does as a last resort.

Quote

 

Stannis quite clearly knows how to run a kingdom.

How is that more clear? It would be nice to have some evidence of this?

Stannis does not get along with other lords of the realm, does not get along with the Small Council, cares little to how he is perceived by the smallfolk.

A Feudal Monarchy is very different to an Absolute Monarchy. Stannis would be dependent on the support of his lords, he would have to have good relations with them, have them like him, have them support how he wanted to rule. There is no evidence of Stannis being able to do any of that.

Stannis burned his Hand alive, his most powerful vassal at that point. He allowed the Faith to be defiled. These are the type of things that would see the realm unite to bring him down if he was ever King.

The only thing Stannis has over Renly is the fact that he was old enough to command in the previous two civil wars. But as Robert, Stannis, Ned, Tywin and many other Lords have shown, previous experience in war is not a necessity to be successful in war.

Quote

 

Obviously he took his education far more seriously.

How so? Or more specifically which parts?

[Stannis Baratheon*]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

People did love him. Stannis himself says that, as does Penrose, as does Tyrion.

But even if we did not have multiple characters pointing this out, it should be clear to all with Renly able to raise the largest army in the history of Westeros to usurp the throne.

That is not entirely true. Who do you think was running the kingdom after Arryn died, Robert on his way to Ned's and Stannis sulking on Dragonstone?

Renly rules a larger kingdom than Stannis, has done more to get along with neighbouring Lords than Stannis ever did. He seems to know how to rule a kingdom successfully. He also seems to appreciate the art of compromise, something that Stannis struggles to do, or only does as a last resort.

How is that more clear? It would be nice to have some evidence of this?

Stannis does not get along with other lords of the realm, does not get along with the Small Council, cares little to how he is perceived by the smallfolk.

A Feudal Monarchy is very different to an Absolute Monarchy. Stannis would be dependent on the support of his lords, he would have to have good relations with them, have them like him, have them support how he wanted to rule. There is no evidence of Stannis being able to do any of that.

Stannis burned his Hand alive, his most powerful vassal at that point. He allowed the Faith to be defiled. These are the type of things that would see the realm unite to bring him down if he was ever King.

The only thing Stannis has over Renly is the fact that he was old enough to command in the previous two civil wars. But as Robert, Stannis, Ned, Tywin and many other Lords have shown, previous experience in war is not a necessity to be successful in war.

How so? Or more specifically which parts?

If Stannis Did Not Burn His Hand, People Would Have Called Him Unjust and Abandoned Him, Just Like What Happened to Robb When He Didn't Kill Catelyn. Renly Was More Charismatic, But He Might Not Be Honest, He Could Be Doing What Littlefinger Is Doing, By Tricking People Into Trusting Him, And Using That Trust For His Own Political Gain, At Least With Stannis, You Know For A Fact He's Honest.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

People did love him. Stannis himself says that, as does Penrose, as does Tyrion.

The people love Renly but that doesn't really signal his worth as a king. Daemon Blackfyre was also more beloved than his half brother but for all the wrong reasons. The people may love Renly but there are suggestion that Renly doesn't love the people in any matter other than a superficial PR stunt. 

[Trigger Warning]

Just now, Daemon of the Blacks said:

The people love Renly but that doesn't really signal his worth as a king. Daemon Blackfyre was also more beloved than his half brother but for all the wrong reasons. The people may love Renly but there are suggestion that Renly doesn't love the people in any matter other than a superficial PR stunt. 

The point people are making about people loving Renly is that it generates him support as king and lends itself to making easy alliances.