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The_Lone_Wolf

Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

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3 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Arya will be checking people off her list.  That is not going to improve her mental health.  I believe Arya will die while checking off the names.  Picture a really good scene at The Twins.  A dead Arya surrounded by some of Walder's dead boys. 

If GRRM was an author who wrote in a straight line with no twists and no complex characters, you would be right. But thankfully that's not true. Arya's list is coping mechanism. It's a response to all the evil and injustice she has seen since leaving Winterfell. It's far from the beginning or end of her story and character arc.

Again, if killing criminals/enemies/people who will kill you if you don't kill them first harms the mental health of a character, Ned, Robb, and Jon must have been suffering from some severe mental illness.

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21 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

Again, if killing criminals/enemies/people who will kill you if you don't kill them first harms the mental health of a character, Ned, Robb, and Jon must have been suffering from some severe mental illness.

I'm not aware of anyone who has suggested that Arya shouldn't kill people who are a threat to her or others.  However, none of the people she killed in Braavos fit that bill.  One was ordered, the other two were pure revenge.

There is a big difference in the mental development of an 11 year-old compared with someone who is 16 or a full-grown adult like Jon, Robb, and Ned. Young children are going to be much more affected by that sort of thing.  Which is the source of my concern about her.  Fortunately, she hasn't done anything unforgivable yet, and I doubt she will.  But I still worry.   

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 9:45 PM, zandru said:

Oh, I know. I was talking about how Arya viewed it.

Which is why I don't want her making decisions on who should live and who should die.  She's not sufficiently mature to know what the hell she is doing. 

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On 7/28/2020 at 6:55 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

And Arya is not the lord of Winterfell.  The Starks are no longer in power.  Their rights have been removed.  Arya Stark lost any authority she might have had.  She did not have the right to kill Dareon.  

She would not have this right even if the Starks were still the lords of Winterfell.  Arya is not in Winterfell.  The Starks have no right to decide what happens to the insurance guy.  I don't think the faceless people have that right.  They would have no need to assassinate the guy if he had broken the laws.  

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10 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm not aware of anyone who has suggested that Arya shouldn't kill people who are a threat to her or others.  However, none of the people she killed in Braavos fit that bill.  One was ordered, the other two were pure revenge.

There is a big difference in the mental development of an 11 year-old compared with someone who is 16 or a full-grown adult like Jon, Robb, and Ned. Young children are going to be much more affected by that sort of thing.  Which is the source of my concern about her.  Fortunately, she hasn't done anything unforgivable yet, and I doubt she will.  But I still worry.   

What about when she was about to kill that innocent shopkeeper though?

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6 hours ago, R2D said:

What about when she was about to kill that innocent shopkeeper though?

Remind me of who and where that was? For some reason, I don't recall a shopkeeper.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Remind me of who and where that was? For some reason, I don't recall a shopkeeper.

They might be talking about the woman who bought Craven from Arya at Saltpans (she threatened Arya with a hanging unless she let herself be cheated, and so she had to sell the horse, the saddle, bridle, and blanket for a pittance)? While I wouldn't consider people who cheat children and threaten them with hanging innocent, other people might. I can't come up with any other shopkeepers.

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49 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

They might be talking about the woman who bought Craven from Arya at Saltpans (she threatened Arya with a hanging unless she let herself be cheated, and so she had to sell the horse, the saddle, bridle, and blanket for a pittance)? While I wouldn't consider people who cheat children and threaten them with hanging innocent, other people might. I can't come up with any other shopkeepers.

That's how smallfolk live. They have to be tough, otherwise nobles will trample them. 

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8 hours ago, R2D said:

What about when she was about to kill that innocent shopkeeper though?

So, now characters are now being judged by what they might do? What they were about to do but didn’t? What they were thinking about doing but didn’t? 

17 minutes ago, R2D said:

That's how smallfolk live. They have to be tough, otherwise nobles will trample them. 

Bollocks. Anyone can be a tough to child, regardless of birth. The smallfolk are respectful when dealing w/ nobles b/c they know the consequences if they’re not. 

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On 7/28/2020 at 6:55 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

And Arya is not the lord of Winterfell.  The Starks are no longer in power.  Their rights have been removed.  Arya Stark lost any authority she might have had.  She did not have the right to kill Dareon.  

Correct

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On 7/28/2020 at 8:22 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Exactly. Would anyone care if, say, Loras executed a NW deserter, even though he's not a lord? Westeros doesn't have an independent and fair judicial system. Justice is what the nobility deems it to be.

And even if that were not the case, lawfulness and sticking to "appropriate" roles does not equate to morality or sanity.

Most people would consider Loras immoral if he had killed the insurance man.  

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5 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Most people would consider Loras immoral if he had killed the insurance man.  

Who is this insurance man y'all keep talki kn g about?

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11 minutes ago, S. D said:

Who is this insurance man y'all keep talki kn g about?

The fraudulent insurance man Arya killed in Braavos:

And when all the coins had been counted and tasted, the old man would scrawl upon a parchment, stamp it with his seal, and give it to the captain. Else he'd shake his head and shove the coins back across the table. Whenever he did that, the other man would get red-faced and angry, or pale and scared-looking.
Cat did not understand. "They pay him gold and silver, but he only gives them writing. Are they stupid?"
"A few, mayhaps. Most are simply cautious. Some think to cozen him. He is not a man easily cozened, however."
"But what is he selling them?"
"He is writing each a binder. If their ships are lost in a storm or taken by pirates, he promises to pay them for the value of the vessel and all its contents."
"Is it some kind of wager?"
"Of a sort. A wager every captain hopes to lose."
"Yes, but if they win …"
"… they lose their ships, oftimes their very lives. The seas are dangerous, and never more so than in autumn. No doubt many a captain sinking in a storm has taken some small solace in his binder back in Braavos, knowing that his widow and children will not want." A sad smile touched his lips. "It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it."
Cat understood. One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White and prayed for the god to take him. She wondered who it had been, but the kindly man would not tell her. "It is not for you to pry into such matters," he said. "Who are you?"

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7 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Most people would consider Loras immoral if he had killed the insurance man.  

Loras killed two of his fellow knights in blind fury and no one's said a peep about it.

FM assassinations seem to be considered okay (or at least amoral) in Braavos. Note that Arya still has to emphasize what an awful person the insurance man was to justify killing him.

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4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Note that Arya still has to emphasize what an awful person the insurance man was to justify killing him.

Case in point.

Arya judges like a child - she is swayed by appearances, by the information under her nose (she had a perfect opportunity to go looking for evidence), most of all by her sense of evil. This being fantasy, her sense of evil may be spot on - but this has not been shown yet.

Quote

He scowled at her and went on past, sloshing through a puddle. The splash wet her feet.

He has no courtesy, she thought, watching him go. His face is hard and mean. The old man's nose was pinched and sharp, his lips thin, his eyes small and close-set. His hair had gone to grey, but the little pointed beard at the end of his chin was still black. Cat thought it must be dyed and wondered why he had not dyed his hair as well. One of his shoulders was higher than the other, giving him a crooked cast.

"He is an evil man," she announced that evening when she returned to the House of Black and White. "His lips are cruel, his eyes are mean, and he has a villain's beard."

 

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On 7/30/2020 at 3:22 AM, R2D said:

Wow the apologism going on here.

The Hound LAUGHED while dumping Mycah's body.

He could have just pretended Mycah ran away if he didn't want him to die.

Mycah could tell the world a totally humiliating story about Joff - no way would Cersei allow that to happen. She was willing to pay a hundred gold dragons just for Nymeria.

On 7/30/2020 at 2:54 AM, zandru said:

I'd long thought that, had Sandor returned Mycah to Cersei, he'd have been tortured basically to death, much like the Tickler would have done. And preferably in the presence of his family. We have seen Cersei do this to total innocents in the later books, and it's no doubt that Sandor was aware of her habits.

The bolded - I totally agree. Mycah would most likely be quietly passed over to the nearest equivalent of the Mountain's Men. Goodbye Mycah.

Sandor - is not a good person, he's done a lot of evil acts - but he is a great character for a re-read. We get drip fed more and more information about his state of mind - and he's clearly got a lot of mental issues, to put it mildly. Thoros, Elder Brother, Arya and Sansa can all testify to that. Also a lot of conflicts - he loved the idea of knights, now he's almost phobic about knights, he hates them so much. He despises his brother for the way he acts, but he's in the same line of work, for the same employer.

Put the inappropriate laughter together with the uncontrollable twitching - it's a sign of a mind at breaking point.

And give the Hound a chance in your next re-read! Almost everything he does can be read two ways. I've never seen so much writing talent put into a minor character - it's great, I love it.

 

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Arya is the Champion of the Smallfolk.  she knows early on right from wrong. 

calling Arya a Mindless Psycho".... is inaccurate as she is the smarter of the two sisters. she acts as the pack leader of her band through the Riverlands and her killings are done in the spirit of survival and justice.  she is wild and impulsive at first but we see here tame as she travels. 

she is of noble birth and as a lady of Winterfell. one day she may be all the things she asked Ned. she desires to rule not merely be a consort. she has the temperament for it.  her lessons she recalls back to her father's lessons meant for her older brothers. 

perhaps she comes off as a vigilantly as she delivers justice under different identities no that of her true self, Arya Stark, Lady of Winterfell.  - don't think she is ever aware that she is even a princess. 

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8 hours ago, Springwatch said:
13 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Note that Arya still has to emphasize what an awful person the insurance man was to justify killing him.

Case in point.

Arya judges like a child - she is swayed by appearances, by the information under her nose (she had a perfect opportunity to go looking for evidence), most of all by her sense of evil. This being fantasy, her sense of evil may be spot on - but this has not been shown yet.

Quote

He scowled at her and went on past, sloshing through a puddle. The splash wet her feet.

He has no courtesy, she thought, watching him go. His face is hard and mean. The old man's nose was pinched and sharp, his lips thin, his eyes small and close-set. His hair had gone to grey, but the little pointed beard at the end of his chin was still black. Cat thought it must be dyed and wondered why he had not dyed his hair as well. One of his shoulders was higher than the other, giving him a crooked cast.

"He is an evil man," she announced that evening when she returned to the House of Black and White. "His lips are cruel, his eyes are mean, and he has a villain's beard

@Springwatch, Arnolf Karstark also was described in such a way. Look where that led to. Nobody judged his real intentions in Stannis's camp.

And ironically, it was the girl who Meli thought as Arya ( really Alys Karstark) who revealed it to Jon. Again it's a trope similar to Arya.

We have been allowed to know that the insurance man is bad. No reason to suspect otherwise. Arya has good judgment. The Alys parallel or whatever is just one instance. 

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On 8/4/2020 at 8:53 AM, S. D said:

Mindless psycho avenger 

I prefer Righteous Avenger Killer :ninja:B)

Anyway, these recent threads about who Arya was gonna hook up with caught my eye.

Jonarya??? :ack:

Edric(Dayne not storm)Arya??? :blink:

GendryArya??? :love:

:agree::cheers:

I know I'm on an emoji spree, but have to make up for not using them much. ;)

Even if Arya is 0.01% of the psycho she is/she is going to be (according to the haters) her love with Gendry will set things right. 

@chrisdaw in a post...

.... Said that both will fall in love but not be together because of bullshit like duty honor etc. I disagree with the not together part. In a way, Robert and Ned's children will join their houses (what never happened with Robert and Lyanna and with Sansa and Joffrey notBaratheon)

Gendry will be the next Baratheon after Stannis, Shireen etc die ( surely you can't expect him to bend the knee to Dany or other claimants? He'll die before that.) (Shireen,... Well, Either Greyscale or Melisandre will do it for her) Edric, well let's see if he survives Lys, the pirates of the Stepstones..... Then Dany. I doubt him praising his father will save his life.

Gendry is more important than that Storm. The mystery of his mother (who may be any blonde haired noble) also is there to bolster his claim. Arya will be Lady Baratheon (though no lady in deed). Speaking of deeds, that is what will catapult Gendry to power. He is a people's man. 

To sum up, GendryArya will rock it. 

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