Red Wedding Survivors

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Just to be clear, I hate the Freys for what they did at the Red Wedding. It's hands down one of the biggest dick moves that GRRM ever wrote about, no matter how Robb may or may not have deserved it (and I'm not interested in analysing that hot topic in this thread).

But something that doesn't make sense to me is how the Freys chose which people to take prisoner instead of kill. The Greatjon fought eight men single-handedly and they still took the time to take him prisoner, but they butcher his eldest son and heir? What about the other sons that Greatjon brought with him to the mustering? Are they all dead too? Jon Snow talks like he's still got living sons, so are they prisoners too?

Also, the Freys made prisoners out of Patrek Mallister and Marq Piper but they killed Lucas Blackwood? Did they think Tytos Blackwood would refuse to save his son from hanging? 

And moreover, why was Edmure spared? No reason that I've heard so far seems to make sense.

"He was a valuable hostage!" Not really, he wasn't. Blackfish saw through the bluff and it just became a joke of a routine before Jaime showed up. And even then, Edmure still allowed his uncle the chance to escape anyway. Even when he could very well have been executed for that kind of trickery.

"He needed to give Roslin an heir!" Did he? Because it isn't Roslin who inherits House Tully's lands. Edmure's kid is still in her belly when Riverrun is given to Emmon and Genna Frey, who presumably will pass it on to their children. Not even Cersei will deny her own aunt and cousins without hearing about it. If anything, it would have been handy to kill Edmure before he even consummates the marriage. That means Roslin is a widow AND still has her maidenhead. For a crass shallow guy like Walder, that would surely be a bargain he'd go for if he's already cursing his entire family.

It seems like any hostage that came out of the Red Wedding will just provide more trouble for House Frey than they'd ever be worth. Tywin didn't take any hostages when he wiped out House Reyne and House Tarbeck, and we can be damn sure that the Freys' enemies won't take any hostages when they avenge the Red Wedding. And even then, they outright slaughter many people who'd make valuable hostages, even when they spare others. Was Greatjon Umber that important compared to, say, Dacey Mormont? Donnel Locke? Robin Flint? Those were all heirs or leaders of prominent Northern houses.

How did they decide who was worth taking alive?

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

I don't thinks it was about choosing who they took as hostages as much as who they were able to catch. The whole think was a mess, and the northems fought back.

Catelyn was suposed to be a hostage, Smalljon died while he tried to defend Robb, the same goes for others in his personal guard.

About the value of the hostages, Blackwood kept fighting because there was no hostage, the other houses stoped the agression and submited because of the hostages taken, a part of the Umbers that it is fighting on Roose's name is only doing it because Greatjon is a hostage, some of the riverlords that helped on the siege of Riverrun also only did because of the hostages as the dialogue left it clear.

Quote

“Where is Marq, answer me that? What have you done with my son? He was a guest at your bloody wedding.”

“And our honored guest he shall remain,” said Edwyn, “until you prove your loyalty to His Grace, King Tommen.”

The problems ahead for house Frey is probably because Jaime took the hostages away, and doomed then.

[GoldenGail3]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The problems ahead for house Frey is probably because Jaime took the hostages away, and doomed then.

The Riverlands Lords are going to the Twins in the books. I see many House Frey men dying. The only dude I want from House Frey to survive is Lothar, the dude who planned the red wedding, because i feel like House Frey wouldn't completely capitulate under his rule. It would be okay if someone as shrewd as Lothar was the new lord of the twins. 

[Canon Claude]

56 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The Greatjon fought eight men single-handedly and they still took the time to take him prisoner, but they butcher his eldest son and heir? What about the other sons that Greatjon brought with him to the mustering? Are they all dead too? Jon Snow talks like he's still got living sons, so are they prisoners too?

 

The great thing about unreliable narrators is that they can be used to justify any plot holes and goofs. Bran claims that Greatjon brings all his sons to war but Jon says some are still alive? Meh, one of them is wrong, simple as that. How would either of them know anyway? Bran's a little kid and Jon is at the Wall.

And hey, this is a guy who out-drank Merrett Frey, I think the Freys admired him too much to kill him after he did that.

58 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Also, the Freys made prisoners out of Patrek Mallister and Marq Piper but they killed Lucas Blackwood? Did they think Tytos Blackwood would refuse to save his son from hanging? 

Tytos has what, five sons? It's not exactly a tragedy if his son dies in the biggest war ever fought in the history of Westeros. And I guess maybe he was supposed to be kept alive but he chose to die fighting. Doesn't Hosteen Frey kill him? The Frey who's literally called "Ser Stupid"?

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

"He was a valuable hostage!" Not really, he wasn't. Blackfish saw through the bluff and it just became a joke of a routine before Jaime showed up. And even then, Edmure still allowed his uncle the chance to escape anyway. Even when he could very well have been executed for that kind of trickery.

 

Doesn't change the fact that if Edmure hadn't resolved the siege, then a lot of people were going to die. Edmure stopped that from happening, so he proved to be the most valuable hostage possible. 

The real question is probably what Edmure's fate would be after Walder Frey took Riverrun without the Lannisters' help. The Lannisters wanted Edmure alive, but Walder was probably going to kill him, as you said in your original post. Roslin wasn't going to inherit Riverrun, and she's probably not one of Walder's favourites, given that she's got a Tully in her belly, which means no special future for her. Riverrun went to Genna Lannister and her husband, so I can only assume that Walder didn't like Roslin all that much.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

8 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Tytos has what, five sons? It's not exactly a tragedy if his son dies in the biggest war ever fought in the history of Westeros. And I guess maybe he was supposed to be kept alive but he chose to die fighting. Doesn't Hosteen Frey kill him? The Frey who's literally called "Ser Stupid"?

I'll concede that yes, Hosteen is a dumbass. I didn't consider that. I could totally imagine Hosteen with orders to overpower and imprison Lucas Blackwood, losing his temper and killing Lucas or accidentally killing him, and the other Freys going "Really, Hos? You had to cut his damn head off??"

[Ser Leftwich]

Story convenience. The only reason that some certain people lived and others died was to serve the plot.

[Alaynsa Starne]

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

"He needed to give Roslin an heir!" Did he? Because it isn't Roslin who inherits House Tully's lands. Edmure's kid is still in her belly when Riverrun is given to Emmon and Genna Frey, who presumably will pass it on to their children. Not even Cersei will deny her own aunt and cousins without hearing about it. If anything, it would have been handy to kill Edmure before he even consummates the marriage. That means Roslin is a widow AND still has her maidenhead. For a crass shallow guy like Walder, that would surely be a bargain he'd go for if he's already cursing his entire family.

I don't think it's a given that she would inherit Tully lands. She's not a blood relative, and she didn't spend any amount of time there to ingratiate herself with Riverrun to the point where the household would try to back her. I think for her to inherit would probably go against Westerosi tradition. I'm fairly certain had Edmure died, Riverrun, barring military occupation by the Freys, would default to the Blackfish. That's why the Freys need a Tully/Frey heir to actually hold onto Riverrun in the long term. 

[Arthur Peres]

55 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Riverlands Lords are going to the Twins in the books. I see many House Frey men dying. The only dude I want from House Frey to survive is Lothar, the dude who planned the red wedding, because i feel like House Frey wouldn't completely capitulate under his rule. It would be okay if someone as shrewd as Lothar was the new lord of the twins. 

I hope Lothar have a death so gruesome that makes Vargo Hoa's death looks mercyfull.

[GoldenGail3]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I hope Lothar have a death so gruesome that makes Vargo Hoa's death looks mercyfull.

Why? He's the only competent and rule worthy child of Walder Frey.

The other frey's deserve to die due to how incompetent they are and Walder Frey deserves to a worthy able bodied person to take his place after he dies of old age no doubt. He's like ninety years old.

[Arthur Peres]

24 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Why? He's the only competent and rule worthy child of Walder Frey.

The other frey's deserve to die due to how incompetent they are and Walder Frey deserves to a worthy able bodied person to take his place after he dies of old age no doubt. He's like ninety years old.

Cause he is a war criminal without morals limits and a overal awful being that deserves the worst of a mind sick as GRRM.

[GoldenGail3]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cause he is a war criminal without morals limits and a overal awful being that deserves the worst of a mind sick as GRRM.

I'd rather take him over an idiot than like Hosteen Frey. If a moron like Hosteen got the Twins, House Frey would perish.

[Nathan Stark]

Who says House Frey needs to continue on at any rate? For the most part, they took part in one of the most vile, unthinkable acts in Westrosi culture of murdering people protected by guest right. Which is one of the most sacred and frankly one of the most essential assurances of stability in the realm.

GRRM didn't make sure to tell us all the story of the Rat Cook just for our education. He needed to lay it on thick that guest right is of fundamental importance throughout Westros. After all, if you can't be certain that you won't be slaughtered at dinner when you are a guest at a strangers home, how can you ever trust anyone? How can two warring Houses ever agree to a peace if they can't trust the other side to honor guest right? They can't. Which is why everyone in the Seven Kingdoms was so shocked and appalled by what the Freys did at the Red Wedding.

And who engineered this absolute monstrosity? Lame Lothar Frey. It was his plan. Don't get me wrong, all of the Freys who participated in the Red Wedding (which was most of them) are now attainted. But Lame Lothar is utterly accursed in the eyes of Gods and men. Why would anyone agree to treat with the man ever again? The entire House is seen as untrustworthy and dishonorable. As a result, they are held in utter contempt by practically the entire realm. And now we are to believe that all the Freys should be punished for the Red Wedding, except for the man who planned the Red Wedding because he happens to be the most competent? How does that logic work, exactly? It's a rather baffling notion.

No. House Frey sealed its fate with the Red Wedding. They have much to answer for, and if that means they get completely wiped out, no great loss. There are worthier familes to take over the Twins.

 

[GoldenGail3]

2 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

And now we are to believe that all the Freys should be punished for the Red Wedding, except for the man who planned the Red Wedding because he happens to be the most competent? How does that logic work, exactly? It's a rather baffling notio

Agh whatever. 

Idc if they all die even him. 

[Nathan Stark]

1 minute ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Agh whatever. 

Idc if they all die even him. 

Sorry if I came on a little strong there. I'm trying to get better at laying out a case, not deliberately attempting to be a windbag.

[GoldenGail3]

Just now, Nathan Stark said:

Sorry if I came on a little strong there. I'm trying to get better at laying out a case, not deliberately attempting to be a windbag.

I understand and you made your case very well. I just believe, that if indeed, House Frey should survive, that it would do best under his leadership. Can you image a man like Ser Hosteen leading the Twins very well?

[Nathan Stark]

No. But that's a point in his favor.

[Belgarad]

7 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

I understand and you made your case very well. I just believe, that if indeed, House Frey should survive, that it would do best under his leadership. Can you image a man like Ser Hosteen leading the Twins very well?

Big Walder will inherit The Twins, it is known.

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

"He needed to give Roslin an heir!" Did he? Because it isn't Roslin who inherits House Tully's lands. Edmure's kid is still in her belly when Riverrun is given to Emmon and Genna Frey, who presumably will pass it on to their children. Not even Cersei will deny her own aunt and cousins without hearing about it. If anything, it would have been handy to kill Edmure before he even consummates the marriage. That means Roslin is a widow AND still has her maidenhead. For a crass shallow guy like Walder, that would surely be a bargain he'd go for if he's already cursing his entire family.

Well, if he did the kid would be the legitimate lord of The Riverlands (after they execute Edmure). So no uprising could go against House Frey as they own both sides, while if Edmure dies, The Blackfish becomes the rightful lord, and he's free and has support, so the war isn't over.

What's weird to me is they didn't imprisoned Robb. With him dead whoever he named as his heir is king and has reasons to fight back and destroy the Freys, specially if that person is Jon, since Cat as a hostage would be useless. But keeping Robb as a prisoner negates any military action from the north, House Darklyn was able to defy the Seven Kingdoms in a period of peace while being a minor house because they held the king as hostage, imagine doing that but just for The North, that would have thoroughly spent forces by that time, and you have backing you The Westernlands, part of The Riverlands and The Reach, as well as in a small way, Dorne and The Stormlands. No northern conspiracy, no nothing, game over for The North.

 

[James Steller]

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

What's weird to me is they didn't imprisoned Robb. With him dead whoever he named as his heir is king and has reasons to fight back and destroy the Freys, specially if that person is Jon, since Cat as a hostage would be useless. But keeping Robb as a prisoner negates any military action from the north, House Darklyn was able to defy the Seven Kingdoms in a period of peace while being a minor house because they held the king as hostage, imagine doing that but just for The North, that would have thoroughly spent forces by that time, and you have backing you The Westernlands, part of The Riverlands and The Reach, as well as in a small way, Dorne and The Stormlands. No northern conspiracy, no nothing, game over for The North.

 

Robb would have to be a prisoner for the rest of his life. As soon as he dies or gets released, his value as a hostage is gone, so you’d have to imprison him inside Casterly Rock or something and keep him there as long as he’s alive. And even if the North never frees Robb, he could always kill himself, or the North might decide it doesn’t care anymore and rallies around a new leader, be damned whether or not Robb is executed in response. A hostage’s power can disappear with a change in popularity.

[TheLastWolf]

6 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

If a moron like Hosteen got the Twins, House Frey would perish.

That's the idea