US Politics: Guns versus Butter

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not really sure why you're trying to dismiss that.

Because it's not going to change awareness nor preferences when it comes to the public's attitudes on voting rights.  It is entirely accurate to anticipate that is the case and that this will have no substantive impact beyond the MLB being concerned about its image.  Moreover, it's naive and/or ignorant of public opinion to think otherwise.

[Tywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Because it's not going to change awareness nor preferences when it comes to the public's attitudes on voting rights.  It is entirely accurate to anticipate that is the case and that this will have no substantive impact beyond the MLB being concerned about its image.  Moreover, it's naive and/or ignorant of public opinion to think otherwise.

Was it even a full week ago that @Fragile Bird was complaining about the weak ass response from Delta's CEO? Look how much has changed since then. That absolutely changed awareness, and when corporate leaders act, people do notice. Again, if you're looking for quick, sweeping change, no that won't happen, but small victories can eventually lead to real change. 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Was it even a full week ago that @Fragile Bird was complaining about the weak ass response from Delta's CEO? Look how much has changed since then. That absolutely changed awareness, and when corporate leaders act, people do notice. Again, if you're looking for quick, sweeping change, no that won't happen, but small victories can eventually lead to real change. 

What the hell did Delta's change in response do?  To claim any of this "absolutely" changed awareness is entirely pulled out of your ass.  Most voting rights measures are already popular - and the public is more than sufficiently aware of them.  You want to raise "awareness" (or really salience)?  Demand support for HR1.  Boycotting Georgia doesn't even have a coherent goal for any effective protest movement.

[kairparavel]

Victory for whom, exactly? 

[Tywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

What the hell did Delta's change in response do?  To claim any of this "absolutely" changed awareness is entirely pulled out of your ass.  Most voting rights measures are already popular - and the public is more than sufficiently aware of them.  You want to raise "awareness" (or really salience)?  Demand support for HR1.  Boycotting Georgia doesn't even have a coherent goal for any effective protest movement.

More than 100 companies have now come out against the bill. The bigger hitters in the state in part led the way. That's nothing to sneeze at, and yes, the increased amount of attention will trickle down. Far more people know about the legislation today than they did two weeks ago. What caused that? Fairy dust?

And if you're going to say I'm pulling something out of my ass, don't ever say the American public is aware of anything. The average American voter is a clueless moron when it comes to the details. People who aren't political junkies know next to nothing other then general ideas.

[Myshkin]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

What the hell did Delta's change in response do?  To claim any of this "absolutely" changed awareness is entirely pulled out of your ass.  Most voting rights measures are already popular - and the public is more than sufficiently aware of them.  You want to raise "awareness" (or really salience)?  Demand support for HR1.  Boycotting Georgia doesn't even have a coherent goal for any effective protest movement.

I guess I’ll call my MLBPA rep and tell him to vote for HR1. You’re acting as if MLB pulling the all-star game is somehow the stopping point for  fighting against voter suppression. Like now that this has been done, nothing more can be done. And your high-handed tone is unnecessary and really fucking grating. Also, if you don’t think there are baseball fans out there who don’t follow politics, baseball fans who are today being made aware of voter suppression in Georgia specifically because of MLB’s actions, you’re out of your mind. Can more be done? Should more be done? Absolutely. But how does that mean that pulling the all-star game is antithetical to the end goal? I don’t see how that’s possible. It’s a small step in a long chain of steps that need to be taken, and your preposterous bitching about it isn’t helping.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

More than 100 companies have now come out against the bill. The bigger hitters in the state in part led the way. That's nothing to sneeze at, and yes, the increased amount of attention will trickle down. Far more people know about the legislation today than they did two weeks ago. What caused that? Fairy dust?

Trickle down to do what?  Oppose a bill that already is signed into law?  There's no tangible goal here, which is my entire point.  Opposing something that's unpopular is easy.  Supporting something that will actually change that takes political courage.  And as your own link notes, those companies weren't there in opposition when it actually mattered - before the bill became law.  Further, if you think those corporations are going to stop any future voting suppression measures in other states, you're kidding yourself.

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And if you're going to say I'm pulling something out of my ass, don't ever say the American public is aware of anything. The average American voter is a clueless moron when it comes to the details. People who aren't political junkies know next to nothing other then general ideas.

The American public is aware of voting rights measures and generally supports them.  There's empirical evidence for this.  You saying the American voter is a "clueless moron" is just a reductive empty platitude - and indeed another example of you pulling something out of your ass.

12 minutes ago, Trishkin said:

You’re acting as if MLB pulling the all-star game is somehow the stopping point for  fighting against voter suppression.

No, I'm saying it's not going to have any tangible effect on anything.  I already said I have no problem with the MLB doing this, but to act like it's going to have any type of impact on public attitudes towards voting rights measures is naive, or simply silly.

[Myshkin]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, I'm saying it's not going to have any tangible effect on anything.  I already said I have no problem with the MLB doing this, but to act like it's going to have any type of impact on public attitudes towards voting rights measures is naive, or simply silly.

Oh, well I guess we just shouldn’t try then.

[DMC]

Just now, Trishkin said:

Oh, well I guess we just shouldn’t try then.

I don't know what the hell you're whining about.  You said the MLB doing this is just to be on the right side of history and its not really the MLB's role to fix the problem.  And I agree.  My objection is to the notion the MLB's action is going to change anything - from legislation to public attitudes.  It's not that "we" shouldn't try.  At all.  That should be pretty clear.

[Myshkin]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't know what the hell you're whining about.  You said the MLB doing this is just to be on the right side of history and its not really the MLB's role to fix the problem.  And I agree.  My objection is to the notion the MLB's action is going to change anything - from legislation to public attitudes.  It's not that "we" shouldn't try.  At all.  That should be pretty clear.

I don’t buy your entire premise, of which you are so absolutely certain, that the MLB’s actions today will have no impact whatsoever. We can disagree about that. But your insistence that you are provably right, and your condescending treatment of dissent are getting on my nerves. You are not provably right, and you should learn how to not be a dick to people who don’t agree with your unprovable assertions.

[Tywin et al.]

DMC, I'll get back to you later. I need to channel my inner "Average voter," so I'm going to watch the new dumb Godzilla/Kong movie. My money is on they become friends.

Also, mentioned it before, but if you haven't read it, Freeman's The Field of Blood is really good. Read a chapter of it while we were slap fighting.

ETA: Tags in Gobs.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Trishkin said:

We can disagree about that. But your insistence that you are provably right, and your condescending treatment of dissent are getting on my nerves. You are not provably right, and you should learn how to not be a dick to people who don’t agree with your unprovable assertions.

Polarized attitudes among the American voter is a provable thing.  The GOP not giving a shit about popular voting rights measures, still jamming voter suppression measures down the throats of red states, and then getting reelected is a provable thing.  You telling anyone not to be a dick is, well, pretty damn funny.

Again, my objection is with the boycott strategy targeted at Georgia.  As a protest movement, that makes no sense because there is no goal there - the bill is already law.  Is the MLB going to boycott all the other states that take up voter suppression bills?  Not bloody likely.  Therefore, it's an empty gesture - just as most of the corporations' statements post hoc are.  The only way to change this is to support HR1, which would thwart these voter suppression measures.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

DMC, I'll get back to you later. I need to channel my inner "Average voter," so I'm going to watch the new dumb Godzilla/Kong movie. My money is on they become friends.

Also, mentioned it before, but if you haven't read it, Freeman's The Field of Blood is really good. Read a chapter of it while we were slap fighting.

ETA: Tags in Gobs.

Hum, no.

Mid movie. Kong relocates to Florida. Opens a giant Lizard zoo with Zilla as his main attraction. The latter eats a visitor, who is the husband of the owner of a rival giant Lizard zoo and gets sued. Kong tries hire an old acquitance, Mothra, to kill the rival zoo keeper. Mothra rats him out to the feds, and he ends up sharing a cell with Joe Exotic.

The End.

[ThinkerX]

So...what happens WHEN the voter suppression measures enacted by the GOP in multiple states fail big time to keep them in power?  Because they come across as a desperate rearguard measure, one likely not workable even in the short term.  

[Ran]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

As a protest movement, that makes no sense because there is no goal there - the bill is already law.

Didn't stop the North Carolina boycott from getting the bathroom bill that was passed rescinded and replaced with an improved compromise bill (although it had a sunset date of this year, IIRC, so back to the political fight). Presumably large-scale action from businesses pulling dollars and jobs out of the state will have a similar impact, if they genuinely press the point.

As to what the MLB or other organizations do about other states and their own laws, that's a good question. I suspect they won't stop regular season games and such. So the All-Star Game is fairly symbolic.

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

DMC, I'll get back to you later. I need to channel my inner "Average voter," so I'm going to watch the new dumb Godzilla/Kong movie. My money is on they become friends.

Also, mentioned it before, but if you haven't read it, Freeman's The Field of Blood is really good. Read a chapter of it while we were slap fighting.

ETA: Tags in Gobs.

They bond over the revelation that both their mothers were called Martha

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Presumably large-scale action from businesses pulling dollars and jobs out of the state will have a similar impact, if they genuinely press the point.

I'm not holding my breath on them genuinely pressing the point - especially in terms of pulling jobs out of the state.  The efficacy/success rate of boycott movements is very low, and corporations know that.  Hell, I haven't even really seen any of the statements come out with a firm position on repeal - just registering general disapproval.  I guess Coke said something like "it needs to be remedied."

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm not holding my breath on them genuinely pressing the point - especially in terms of pulling jobs out of the state.  The efficacy/success rate of boycott movements is very low, and corporations know that.  Hell, I haven't even really seen any of the statements come out with a firm position on repeal - just registering general disapproval.  I guess Coke said something like "it needs to be remedied."

Yes. As I noted earlier, Delta's second statement was basically the same as the first in actual concrete content, just with more saber-rattling. I'm surprised the MLB went this far, but it's not really sustainable from them, and probably has more to do with responding to activism from within the MLBPA than it does with genuine issues. The Braves organization could do something more along those lines, but I expect they won't because of their ownership.

To the broader point that there doesn't seem to be any real strategy to it, I think that's pretty fair. I can't see what else Major League Baseball can do that is concrete. They can put out press releases, they can continue to lobby, but there's nothing more they can do to hit Georgia's revenues that I can see. 

 

[BigFatCoward]

11 hours ago, Week said:

I'll save my pearl clutching for a profession that isn't an organized gang terrorizing citizens 

What a weird take. When Jo Cox was murdered in the UK I didn't say 'fuck her' because of vile fucks like Rees Mogg. There are good and bad police, you have no knowledge of this victim whatsoever. 

A man woke up today, left his home and was murdered. That some people in his proffesion are violent, corrupt or evil is completely irrelevant. 

How utterly pathetic. 

I've been to murders where I knew for a fact that the victim was an absolute scumbag who had caused incredible misery to their community, we still try and save their lives and show empathy to the family. Yet here you are practically gleeful that a police officer was killed. 

[mormont]

On the Georgia boycott, I take the view that the people who got two Democrat senators elected in Georgia are probably the best placed to assess whether boycotts are a good idea.