Aliens?

[TheLastWolf]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:18 PM, Spockydog said:

There is more evidence for the existence of Aliens than there is for the existence of God

They can't be worse than Homo Sapiens 

[Soylent Brown]

Yes they can! People blood is warm, thick, and delicious, whereas Alien blood is nasty, corrosive gunge. Good for nothing but dissolving your victims.

[TheLastWolf]

20 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

Yes they can! People blood is warm, thick, and delicious, whereas Alien blood is nasty, corrosive gunge. Good for nothing but dissolving your victims.

Clichéd stereotypes. Hmmph. Pfft 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 5/18/2021 at 6:48 AM, Spockydog said:

There is more evidence for the existence of Aliens than there is for the existence of God.

Huh, the actual inclusion of aliens could be seen as an existential crisis for many creationists or people who believe god created life on earth and that’s it. 

[DaveSumm]

I personally can’t find any logic at all to hostile aliens. If you’ve mastered interstellar travel, then you have your pick of billions of other planets if you need ‘resources’ (which I also doubt). Why come all this way to a planet that will fight back? Even if our attempt at fighting back is pathetic, just go somewhere with no life. Fundamentally, if you can get here, then you don’t need what we have.

[Rippounet]

“Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.”

– Bill Watterson

[IFR]

@DaveSumm

I find the dark forest philosophy pretty compelling. We may not be a threat now, but our technical progress is advancing at an exponential rate. In 200 years we've gone from just beginning to develop a rudimentary understanding of electromagnetism to now, where technical marvels such as cell phones are commonplace. 

Perhaps not all knowledge is developed exponentially. Perhaps certain aliens live in an environment that only has permitted linear growth, but the development has continued over a much longer period of time. Perhaps some aliens run into dry periods more frequently, etc. In any of these cases, we don't pose a threat now, but we could very quickly become a threat. Any observation of us would indicate that we are highly volatile and destructive (how many people are subject to genocide as we speak? And for that matter, how many millions of species have gone extinct because of human action?).

I would imagine that we aren't unique in that either. The universe is incredibly hostile to life. To manage to survive the crucible a species is probably going to be less than friendly.

A preemptive strike, just to be sure, seems like an appropriate response. That or using the subjects for research purposes (like we do to all non-human - and sometimes human - animals).

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

“Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.”

– Bill Watterson

Oh Calvin and Hobbes! Still, tigers in North America!? 

[DaveSumm]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

@DaveSumm

I find the dark forest philosophy pretty compelling. We may not be a threat now, but our technical progress is advancing at an exponential rate. In 200 years we've gone from just beginning to develop a rudimentary understanding of electromagnetism to now, where technical marvels such as cell phones are commonplace. 

Perhaps not all knowledge is developed exponentially. Perhaps certain aliens live in an environment that only has permitted linear growth, but the development has continued over a much longer period of time. Perhaps some aliens run into dry periods more frequently, etc. In any of these cases, we don't pose a threat now, but we could very quickly become a threat. Any observation of us would indicate that we are highly volatile and destructive (how many people are subject to genocide as we speak? And for that matter, how many millions of species have gone extinct because of human action?).

Right, but a threat against what? Us randomly deciding to expend an insane amount of energy to travel to somewhere you’d never stumble upon in a billion years if you weren’t trying to find it, to kill a bunch of aliens? So basically there’s two reasons aliens might attack: a pre-emptive against a possible pre-emptive, or they just love killing things. I can’t square that second one at all, by that stage you’d have the technology to just VR yourself into any imaginable scenario. Why make the journey? And the first one seems incredibly depressing that in thousands of years, we might still have the same incredibly stupid and paranoid reasoning behind everything. We kill each other now because we’re all up in each other’s business, but if light years separated us?

I just can’t believe in aliens that stupid or that bloodthirsty.

[Week]

22 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I just can’t believe in aliens that stupid or that bloodthirsty.

You're assuming a very humanist/logical paradigm for aliens -- which, if they exist, are far more likely to be more, alien, than we can imagine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)

[IFR]

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Right, but a threat against what? Us randomly deciding to expend an insane amount of energy to travel to somewhere you’d never stumble upon in a billion years if you weren’t trying to find it, to kill a bunch of aliens?

Yes. This has wide and dramatic relevance in the history of cultural interactions in the history of our world. A difference to note, however, is rate of knowledge acquisition. Human cultures may not mesh at first, but over time may develop an equilibrium with each other, because there are no physiological difference between people of respective cultures that would give one an advantage over another (different phenotypes are expressed in humans, but there's no evidence that different races have different intellectual capabilities). This would not be true with an alien species. There would almost certainly be a difference in the rate of one species' capability of knowledge acquisition over the other, which would cause any exchange to be one of fixed inequilibrium.

Furthermore, the question of distance being a true barrier is unknown, because we only have our current technology as reference. Will worm hole technology be realized? Maybe. Even if it's not, within our world alone we are on the course of advancing tech in artificial intelligence, genetic engineering, and bionics. What kind of stress in traveling and what environments humans will be able to endure is an open question. Perhaps we'll develop the capability of constant acceleration drives that hit a steady 50 g or above? Who knows? Maybe we can send our robots to do the exploring for us.

Likewise for the alien intelligence. Perhaps they needn't bother sending themselves or robots, and can launch a probe that achieves near light speed in travel that is armed with an engineered virus or bacteria that is designed to effectively eradicate life? All that would be required is some resources dedicated to monitoring the progress of the weapon.

It's all highly speculative, of course.

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

And the first one seems incredibly depressing that in thousands of years, we might still have the same incredibly stupid and paranoid reasoning behind everything. We kill each other now because we’re all up in each other’s business, but if light years separated us?

Perhaps it's depressing. I'm not sure of your worldview, but I invite you to consider the present. Over thousands of years of civilization, humans have worked to improve our sense of morality and become a better people. Surely we are on the correct path, right? After all, a thousand years ago, racism and sexism was the norm, and humans didn't have much of a care for anything but survival. Things must have improved since then, surely?

It is ironic, then, that now is when humans have achieved a destructiveness that is unprecedented in history. I mentioned the genocide. China currently is committing genocide against the Uighers as we speak (nearly on a Holocaust scale), because it is considered desirable by the government and the rest of the world is going to let a nuclear state and economic powerhouse get away with it. Right now there's a thread discussing the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people by the Jewish people. Why is that going on? Because the Jewish people can get away with it, and many fear that if they exercise restraint, then the Jewish people will be ethnically cleansed.

And that's not touching the worst of it. Currently, literally billions of animals are being processed in a state of unfathomable suffering so people can have their tasty meat. Most people don't even feel bad about contributing to this system. And in the meantime, humans are creating an environment that, while it probably won't drive them into extinction, will likely kill off almost all other animals, so very little is left but domesticated chattel that humans can exploit to their own design.

And what does the future hold? Well, humans want to improve artificial intelligence. Why? So they can have a more effective slaves that work to their will.

Human progress, at least, has exacted a terrible toll on virtually everything. And one could say that humans are bad. But I suspect if it were chimpanzees, or dolphins, that evolved to be the dominant species, they would also exact their terrible toll.

I fear that the arc of life is similar to the arc of non-life: destruction.

[Rippounet]

41 minutes ago, IFR said:

Perhaps it's depressing. I'm not sure of your worldview, but I invite you to consider the present. Over thousands of years of civilization, humans have worked to improve our sense of morality and become a better people. Surely we are on the correct path, right?

Careful. There's a case to be made that our sense of morality has worsened in the past 250 years rather than improved, and that the problems we are "solving" are themselves relatively recent creations in the first place.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Aliens, in all likelihood exist.  It is highly unlikely that they have visited Earth.

[TheLastWolf]

38 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Aliens, in all likelihood exist.  It is highly unlikely that they have visited Earth.

The so called gods might be ET visitors. Small minded Homo Sapiens did the rest of fantasizing. History TV18 anybody? 

[Fez]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Aliens, in all likelihood exist.  It is highly unlikely that they have visited Earth.

Highly unlikely that aliens themselves have visited Earth? Sure, at least in the time frame that humans have existed.

Highly unlikely that alien von Neumann probes, or other unmanned (unaliened?) ships have visited Earth? That I'd be less sure of.

[Corvinus85]

On 5/23/2021 at 1:57 AM, DaveSumm said:

I personally can’t find any logic at all to hostile aliens. If you’ve mastered interstellar travel, then you have your pick of billions of other planets if you need ‘resources’ (which I also doubt). Why come all this way to a planet that will fight back? Even if our attempt at fighting back is pathetic, just go somewhere with no life. Fundamentally, if you can get here, then you don’t need what we have.

It depends on some some basic philosophical leanings. Like us, an alien species may be inclined to prolong its longevity by being a multi-planet species. Depending on their technology, they may seek out habitable planets or be ok with living anywhere. If they have great terraforming technology, they may not care about a planet's habitability, and will go for dead rocks, rather than risk dealing with all the pathogens on a habitable planet. There is also a star's stability to consider, presence of gas giants that can act as comet catchers etc. 

But if they have great medical technology, and are capable of extensive genetic engineering, they will go for habitable planets. And for an advanced alien race, humanity may just be an ant hill they would have no problems bulldozing over. 

[DaveSumm]

19 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

But if they have great medical technology, and are capable of extensive genetic engineering, they will go for habitable planets. And for an advanced alien race, humanity may just be an ant hill they would have no problems bulldozing over. 

A quick google tells me there could be 6 billion Earth-like planets in our galaxy. I still don’t see where the drive to do this comes from; even an ant-hill is some work compared to literally nothing. 

And I still can’t see a way round my ‘resource’ issue: getting here would be such a mammoth task that you couldn’t possibly need anything we have. Even if you’d mastered the technology to the point where it was easy, well that just speaks to how insanely advanced you must be and can probably synthesise whatever you need anyway. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Fez said:

Highly unlikely that aliens themselves have visited Earth? Sure, at least in the time frame that humans have existed.

Highly unlikely that alien von Neumann probes, or other unmanned (unaliened?) ships have visited Earth? That I'd be less sure of.

The second alternative is possible, but, how would we ever know?

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

A quick google tells me there could be 6 billion Earth-like planets in our galaxy. I still don’t see where the drive to do this comes from; even an ant-hill is some work compared to literally nothing. 

And I still can’t see a way round my ‘resource’ issue: getting here would be such a mammoth task that you couldn’t possibly need anything we have. Even if you’d mastered the technology to the point where it was easy, well that just speaks to how insanely advanced you must be and can probably synthesise whatever you need anyway. 

Gold!!! Have you not seen Cowboys vs. Aliens?

[Corvinus85]

33 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The second alternative is possible, but, how would we ever know?

The physics defying UFOs would make better sense if we knew they were drones. Assuming they don't have some inertia negating technology, drones could pull 30G maneuvers without the danger of killing the crew.