Friendship, Intolerance, and Social Media

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

That "we" is doing a lot of work, but I'll make it explicit here: "We," in my interpretation, means you, i.e. cisgender people. (And again, shoutout to my BIPOC cis friends who are staunch allies in this regard. I return the favor by calling in the white folk in my sphere and work with them to dismantle their patterns of thought that lead to racist outcomes, because BIPOC folk are exempted from that labor unless they choose to take it on.)

"We" in the sense of combating racism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. Bigotry in all its forms needs to be shattered and thrown to the wind.

[A True Kaniggit]

5 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Cisgender white people are embarrassingly bad at actually supporting marginalized folk.

Yeah, we suck. 

[Altherion]

I have also mostly given up on social media. This forum is more or less the last place I interact with people whom I don't know in real life (I guess I technically still have a LinkedIn account, but I haven't looked at it in years and mostly just delete the spam it generates). The thing is, in real life, my family, friends and co-workers cover a pretty broad range of beliefs (e.g. the Americans range from AOC supporters to people who believe some of the pro-Trump conspiracy theories). Surprisingly, even when these people meet in person, it's pretty rare for one or the other to get seriously offended.

On the other hand, to the extent that these people interact on social media, they have (with a few exceptions) long ago abandoned any shared spaces. The arguments given in this thread for disengaging are persuasive at first glance, but I think on the whole this is still a very bad thing because of the point from Mentat's comment: disengaging does not make either side go away. We all live in a shared world and the downside of isolating ourselves into social media silos is that there occasionally comes a time when, regardless of other views, all must agree on something for the benefit of everyone (such as, for example, for each individual to get vaccinated and thereby stop a pandemic), it becomes really hard to convince the people whose silo disagrees.

[Hereward]

I’m really confused by this. Once upon a time, I held very right-wing views, all of which were acceptable for debate on this site, and almost all of which I changed as a result of interactions on this site. I hope I’m still friends with some of those who did the changing. But I doubt it, to my infinite regret.

I have deleted friends and even family for unacceptable racist and sexist views, generally after telling them why  but, knowing I’m going to get abuse for this, this increasingly, from a selfish viewpoint, does me no good. I lose my former friends and family, while the people I admired and liked on social media regard me as as indistinguishable from a Nazi anyway. I can absolutely see why a) some people fall prey to bad actors saying, you got called a Nazi, we also got called a Nazi (while being actual fucking Nazis) or b) it doesn’t matter what I say or do, they’re going to hate me anyway.

It all reminds me rather of the Trotskyite factions of my youth, splitting into ever smaller groups over supposed infractions, while refusing to explain to anyone (and I did try) exactly what their infraction was, because someone generally au fait with the revolutionary spirit wouldn’t need to ask.

In a last attempt to stay on the board, I’ll just say, it sucks to explain what you think is blatantly obvious, but there are an awful lot of people who don’t get it and telling them that’s their problem doesn’t work. Especially when, as you point out, they benefit from the status quo.

Lastly, as a possibly light aside, the Trotskyite who used to work for me possibly took my advice about the pointlessness of debate over ever more obscure points of doctrine and joined a communist armed group in Turkey. He’s now serving life in a Turkish prison.

 

[Tywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Hereward said:

I have deleted friends and even family for unacceptable racist and sexist views, generally after telling them why  but, knowing I’m going to get abuse for this, this increasingly, from a selfish viewpoint, does me no good. I lose my former friends and family, while the people I admired and liked on social media regard me as as indistinguishable from a Nazi anyway. I can absolutely see why a) some people fall prey to bad actors saying, you got called a Nazi, we also got called a Nazi (while being actual fucking Nazis) or b) it doesn’t matter what I say or do, they’re going to hate me anyway.

If it makes you feel better, as a Jew, I can tell you you're no Nazi. 

You can be a curmudgeon from time to time though you old Brit. 

[williamjm]

41 minutes ago, Hereward said:

I have deleted friends and even family for unacceptable racist and sexist views, generally after telling them why  but, knowing I’m going to get abuse for this, this increasingly, from a selfish viewpoint, does me no good. I lose my former friends and family, while the people I admired and liked on social media regard me as as indistinguishable from a Nazi anyway. I can absolutely see why a) some people fall prey to bad actors saying, you got called a Nazi, we also got called a Nazi (while being actual fucking Nazis) or b) it doesn’t matter what I say or do, they’re going to hate me anyway.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find any comparison of you to a Nazi to be baffling.

[A wilding]

@Hereward I am genuinely surprised that you appear to be saying that you find the board so hostile to you personally that you may be thinking of leaving it?

I have been here for probably as long as you (though I have not always been very active). While your opinions often don't match mine, I consider you an entirely reasonable person whose thoughts are always worth reading. I don't recall you ever espousing "very right-wing views" and certainly have never remotely thought of you as a Nazi! If really pushed, I would probably categorise you as the sort of long-standing respectable Tory who Johnson and co have now jettisoned from their party.

If you are willing, I would like to understand more why you apparently feel as you do.

 

[Kalbear]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:51 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Then who is responsible? Again, I'm not talking about hardcore, hateful people, but those who express views and opinions which seem lacking in information.

For someone who blames all fat people for being fat, you seem oddly unwilling to make people who have shitty views be responsible for fixing said views. Obviously the people who are responsible for changing the shitty views are the people who have those views to begin with. 

On 6/25/2021 at 7:51 PM, Tywin et al. said:

You don't "have to," but you should try to when and where you can without doing too much harm to yourself, within reason. And you need to pick your battles given you can't win every fight, nor should you try and do so.

That's definitely not what you said before. 

I'll say another thing about it. Sometimes the best thing to do to someone is to make it clear that they need to change, and you do that by affecting them. Telling them about something while having no other consequences happen to them often does not engender change. Sometimes it does, and that's cool, but a lot of people will not do anything different unless they suffer something first. 

[Tywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Kal Corp said:

For someone who blames all fat people for being fat, you seem oddly unwilling to make people who have shitty views be responsible for fixing said views. Obviously the people who are responsible for changing the shitty views are the people who have those views to begin with. 

Hold up right there buddy. I did not blame all fat people for being fat. I have said don't bitch about being overweight if you're also not willing to change your diet and exercise, but that's a far cry from what you're saying here.

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hold up right there buddy. I did not blame all fat people for being fat. I have said don't bitch about being overweight if you're also not willing to change your diet and exercise, but that's a far cry from what you're saying here.

 

Probably there are more appropriate synonyms for "complain".

[DMC]

2 hours ago, williamjm said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find any comparison of you to a Nazi to be baffling.

Ditto 

[Tywin et al.]

47 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Probably there are more appropriate synonyms for "complain".

Not in this context.

And the timing is especially funny because just shortly before Kal made that comment I was talking with a friend and she was saying she didn't workout today, so I suggested she do a 35 minute yoga video with me. We just finished and it was great. The power of friendship! 

[IheartIheartTesla]

3 hours ago, williamjm said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find any comparison of you to a Nazi to be baffling.

In other words, you did Nazi that coming *ba dum tish*

[Tywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

In other words, you did Nazi that coming *ba dum tish*

If the mods could make Nickelodeon slime fall on you right now, I would support it.

[Week]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hold up right there buddy. I did not blame all fat people for being fat. I have said don't bitch about being overweight if you're also not willing to change your diet and exercise, but that's a far cry from what you're saying here.

 

You know this is a dumb, incorrect take, right?

[Tywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Week said:

You know this is a dumb, incorrect take, right?

Not even remotely given the context. 

5 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

This is probably turning into the most self righteous jerk off thread in all of Board history with all the hypocrisy that goes right along with it. 

Fuck this shit. Nuke me into the fucking sun,

go

I saw your text. Also, Madame von Grammar Nazi, I don't believe you can be nuked into the sun, technically speaking.

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

I was about to hope that none of you go through what I’m going through right now but no, I hope that every single fucking one of you have to go through this. 

So you can learn some real goddamn empathy.

This didn't age well via our text conversation. 

[Kalbear]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hold up right there buddy. I did not blame all fat people for being fat. I have said don't bitch about being overweight if you're also not willing to change your diet and exercise, but that's a far cry from what you're saying here.

 

First off, that's not remotely what you said, and secondly, if you can't recognize the inherent silliness of you wanting people to help others not be bigots but not wanting people to help others lose weight because they need to just have some personal responsibility - well, I dunno what to tell you.

Maybe those bigoted people just need to want to change more? 

Why is the responsibility to fix bigoted people on other people, but the responsibility to fix overweight people on the overweight people? The answer won't surprise you

[Fragile Bird]

35 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

Nothing ages well, but considering half these people have already “nuked (me) into the sun”* I don’t give a fuck.

 

* hopefully for their own mental health because good Christ, I would hate to think they would be so shallow as to do that because I’m friends with people of whom they disapprove.

I’m very sorry you are going through something terrible. Hugs to you, Chats!   And feel free to message me.

[Tywin et al.]

If you kill a fly when it lands on your copy of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, did you kill two flies?

7 minutes ago, Kal Corp said:

First off, that's not remotely what you said, and secondly, if you can't recognize the inherent silliness of you wanting people to help others not be bigots but not wanting people to help others lose weight because they need to just have some personal responsibility - well, I dunno what to tell you.

I have always said I am more than happy to give weight loss, as well as just general fitness advice, to anyone who asks for my opinion. I'm also willing to be vulnerable and ask for advice when I can't figure something out, like when my hips felt out of sync and I had no idea what to do about it. What I am not here for is when someone says they don't have the time to workout, or they won't make changes to their diet, but constantly complain about how unhappy they are with their physical health. So yes, at some point there is a level of personal responsibility assuming there isn't some underlying health issue. 

Quote

Maybe those bigoted people just need to want to change more? 

Why is the responsibility to fix bigoted people on other people, but the responsibility to fix overweight people on the overweight people? The answer won't surprise you

You're making a rather obvious mistake here. You don't have to fix bigoted people if you don't want to, but you can't say it's not your problem to fix bigoted people while railing against bigotry. You're literally saying that's on someone else.

And comparing bigotry to weight is just dumb.