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James Steller

What's the point of Bonifer Hasty?

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I know, I know, small bit of GRRM's worldbuilding, yadda yadda, but still, I'm curious about this. Mostly because Bonifer Hasty seems like a walking contradiction. He's apparently the head of House Hasty, which is listed as a noble house that's been around since at least the time period of Dunk & Egg, but he's only called "Ser" and is described as a landed knight. He's utterly devoted to the Seven, even creating a special order of a hundred pious knights, but they through their lot in with Stannis Baratheon, who's (A) an atheist, and (B) supported by a priestess of Rhlorr, who's converting as many of Stannis' followers as she can. And now, instead of racing off to join the newly formed Faith Militant, he's accepted the position of castellan at Harrenhal, which is owned by Lord Petyr Baelish, a man who famously made his fortune by catering to the vice and sin which Bonifer despises. 

What the hell is his deal? What does he want? What is he going to do?

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There is not much contradiction there. Hasty originally joined Renly, his own liege lord. He only joined Stannis after Renly's death at Storm's End - at which time he might have little to nothing heard about Stannis' queer new beliefs considering Renly's party were not exactly caring about Stannis before he showed up at Storm's End. Stannis would also not exactly walk around and tell everybody and their grandmother that he didn't believe in the Seven or any other gods for that matter. That's something he shared with his close confidant Davos but, most likely, very few other people.

Hasty ending up in Stannis' camp might have to do with Hasty's overlord(s) siding with him, giving him little to no other choice. If the Hasty lands are part of the Caron lands, say, then it would have been very risky for him to go against Bryce Caron.

When Hasty was sent to Harrenhal to take up the office of castellan there the Faith Militant hadn't been restored yet.

It is rather obvious that one likely scenario is that Hasty and his Holy Hundred are going to join the Warrior's Sons now. It is equally likely that Hasty's past connection with Queen Rhaella - a very curious detail - is going to motivate him to push the Faith to declare Aegon the rightful king. He might even declare for Aegon before he decides to also join the Warrior's Sons.

That Bonifer Hasty is basically a tool to ensure that Harrenhal and the Riverlands return into the Targaryen camp can be drawn from Jaime's briefly musing about why Cersei chose Bonifer for that position. He thinks that Orton Merryweather suggested Hasty for the job, because Hasty once served Orton's grandfather Owen. And Orton and Taena clearly were in KL to mess both with Cersei and the Tyrells. And the only explanation about their motivation that makes sense is that Orton served with the Golden Company in exile.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That Bonifer Hasty is basically a tool to ensure that Harrenhal and the Riverlands return into the Targaryen camp can be drawn from Jaime's briefly musing about why Cersei chose Bonifer for that position. He thinks that Orton Merryweather suggested Hasty for the job, because Hasty once served Orton's grandfather Owen. And Orton and Taena clearly were in KL to mess both with Cersei and the Tyrells. And the only explanation about their motivation that makes sense is that Orton served with the Golden Company in exile.

So you’re saying that Orton Merryweather is sowing discord by putting an obvious candidate for the Faith Militant in a powerful position in the Riverlands to upset the peace? That House Merrywearher is in league with the Golden Company? For some reason, I somehow missed that while reading. Is it a theory or canon?

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The Faith will rally to Aegon, when they do Ser Bonifer will declare for Aegon and HH will be Aegon's. Dany will bring a heathen army to Westeros, she and her forces will clash with Aegon and his in the second dance of dragons.

Ser Bonifer will have to decide if he will side with his faith or the daughter of the woman he loved. He will choose his faith. In Bonifer and his Holy hundred we have an elite religious militant force for the Seven, in Benero's Fiery Hand we have the same for R'hllor. I expect the two will meet in the field in Westeros during the Dance. The Holy Hundred might get absorbed by the Warrior's Sons.

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6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

So you’re saying that Orton Merryweather is sowing discord by putting an obvious candidate for the Faith Militant in a powerful position in the Riverlands to upset the peace? That House Merrywearher is in league with the Golden Company? For some reason, I somehow missed that while reading. Is it a theory or canon?

Not so much a candidate for the Faith Militant since I don't expect that Orton and Taena expected Cersei to reinstate the orders of the Faith Militant. Rather they ensured Cersei gave the control of Harrenhal to a man with rather strong Targaryen leanings without Cersei even realizing it.

The new High Septon and his sparrow movement also seem to prefer the Targaryens to the other pretenders. They are looking for a savior, for a king who could restore the peace in Westeros. The High Septon also wants to push the agenda of the Faith, but he doesn't want to set himself up as the new king of Westeros.

Orton and Taena definitely aren't in the game only for themselves - if that were the case they would have sided fully with either Cersei or the Tyrells. Instead, they played them against each other, to the point that they risk to destroy themselves. Mace Tyrell is Orton's liege lord, and both Orton and Taena played crucial roles in the arrest of Margaery. They cannot possibly get away with this. But they did not throw themselves at Mace's feet and begged his forgiveness or offered their help to resolve the crisis ... they just ran away.

More importantly, Taena would have brought her son Russell to court as Cersei suggested once, so he could befriend Tommen. If they aren't in camp Targaryen/Golden Company then the future of Westeros would be King Tommen in any case, and it would be utter stupidity to not ensure that their son becomes King Tommen's best friend. The fact that they didn't do this indicates they do not think or expect Tommen will be king for long. And that they themselves do not plan to prolong his reign.

Instead, the best interpretation for their behavior is that Owen and Orton Merryweather (and perhaps also Orton's unknown father who may have died in exile, too) remained Targaryen loyalists in exile and served with the Golden Company like Jon Connington after he was sent into exile.

Orton was eventually allowed to return, but Robert didn't return all the lands of House Merryweather, and he kept all their wealth, so the Merryweathers do not really have a reason to be particularly loyal to the Baratheons. We do know the officers of the Golden Company think they have some friends in the Reach. The most prominent of those friends could be Orton Merryweather.

Orton and Taena may not have fled court because they feared Mace's wrath ... but rather to marshal their own armies to join Aegon in the Stormlands.

It is also rather interesting to see that the Merryweathers apparently didn't play a role in the War of the Five Kings before they came to KL with Margaery's wedding party. Orton wasn't with Renly or Stannis, indicating they are cautious and hold back their strength.

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Umpteenth time 

Spoiler

.Ser Bonifer Hasty and Rhaella Targaryen could have had a daughter who might’ve been passed off as a stillbirth to the Mad King. She could have been given to that chandler and could have married that lesser Payne and had Pod. She might not have run away, but could be one of the women whose identity is still a mystery till ADWD.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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20 hours ago, James Steller said:

I know, I know, small bit of GRRM's worldbuilding, yadda yadda, but still, I'm curious about this. Mostly because Bonifer Hasty seems like a walking contradiction. He's apparently the head of House Hasty, which is listed as a noble house that's been around since at least the time period of Dunk & Egg, but he's only called "Ser" and is described as a landed knight. He's utterly devoted to the Seven, even creating a special order of a hundred pious knights, but they through their lot in with Stannis Baratheon, who's (A) an atheist, and (B) supported by a priestess of Rhlorr, who's converting as many of Stannis' followers as she can. And now, instead of racing off to join the newly formed Faith Militant, he's accepted the position of castellan at Harrenhal, which is owned by Lord Petyr Baelish, a man who famously made his fortune by catering to the vice and sin which Bonifer despises. 

What the hell is his deal? What does he want? What is he going to do?

It's interesting how each book has a character or two who make a brief appearance and then come back a book or two later in a major way. Think Gendry, Beric, Margaery, Qyburn . . .

I think good ser Bonifer might be just such a character now. And perhaps the Elder Brother.

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29 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think good ser Bonifer might be just such a character now. And perhaps the Elder Brother.

Very interesting OP!  I wonder if Ser Bonifer is Elder Brother's last ruby.

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I just can't be convinced he's not Dany's pop.  Regardless, I think that he's going to be a Dany sympathizer whether that's because of his relationship with her, or in memory of her mother.

 

Except for the whole Harrenhall thing. His outright dismissal of the 'curse of Harrenhall' seems to be the kind off thing that will invite a visit from said curse.  Perhaps the next time we see him he will be a bathing in blood cannibal who sees Dany as nothing more than a free bag of King's blood.

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1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I just can't be convinced he's not Dany's pop.  Regardless, I think that he's going to be a Dany sympathizer whether that's because of his relationship with her, or in memory of her mother.

I literally can't imagine a scenario where Bonifer Hasty was able to impregnate Dany's mom under the circumstances of Daenerys' conception and birth. There are so many factors which would render that scenario pretty much impossible. 

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15 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I literally can't imagine a scenario where Bonifer Hasty was able to impregnate Dany's mom under the circumstances of Daenerys' conception and birth. There are so many factors which would render that scenario pretty much impossible. 

He could have knocked her up after she fled to Dragonstone. Sure Aerys II was with her before she left, but there's no reason to assume that he impregnated her that night. Hasty was in the vicinity when she was at what may have been her lowest low. I don't doubt that she would have found comfort where she could. I also can't help but think that the moniker 'Storm Born'  is a hint from the author that Dany may be a Storm herself. 

Jon, Tyrion and Dany all seem to live in the shadow of their presumed fathers. I believe that they will each be released from that shadow's grasp and the personal 'measuring up' that they all do. So yeah, it follows that I think Jon isn't Ned's and Tyrion isn't Tywin's regardless of what Aunt Gemma sees in the little man. 

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1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Hasty was in the vicinity when she was at what may have been her lowest low.

Was he? Where did it say that?

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15 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Was he? Where did it say that?

LOL. Good question.  I went looking for your answer and found it in some OLD tinfoil I had read and only half remembered... Not stated in the books at all which I had believed it had been.  Big strike against what I had said right there. Oh well. Thanks for the catch, I've been living with that misconception for a few years.

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On 7/19/2021 at 11:12 AM, James Steller said:

I know, I know, small bit of GRRM's worldbuilding, yadda yadda, but still, I'm curious about this. Mostly because Bonifer Hasty seems like a walking contradiction. He's apparently the head of House Hasty, which is listed as a noble house that's been around since at least the time period of Dunk & Egg, but he's only called "Ser" and is described as a landed knight.

No contradiction.  House Hasty is not a noble house.  It is the house of a landed knight.    The Wiki of Ice and Fire says it is a "noble house", but the Wiki gets things wrong sometimes, and has obviously got things wrong here.

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Posted (edited)

As for the point of Bonifer, he is the grandson of Duncan the Tall, the father of Rhaegar, and the grandfather of the 3 heads of the dragon.  And he knows what happened at Summerhall.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Landed knights are nobility, too, there is no contradiction there.

There is no reason to assume that Bonifer and Rhaella had ever sex, much less conceive a child together. What we do know is that Bonifer cut his ties with tourney life and whatever interactions he had with Princess Rhaella when her marriage to Prince Aerys was announced - which would have been weeks or months before their wedding, and even more time before Rhaella's pregnancy.

It is also kind of ridiculous to assume Princess Rhaella had sex before her marriage. Aerys II was only fifteen years old in 259 AC when Rhaegar was born, and he was the elder sibling. At the time of his wedding Aerys II was likely only fourteen and Rhaella thirteen or even only twelve. Prior to her wedding, Rhaella may not even been able to conveive. Bonifer Hasty is already a kind of weirdo having the hots for such a young girl - as are Sandor Clegane or Rhaegar Targaryen, for that matter - but it is pretty much inconceivable that a man like him would touch a girl who isn't a maiden yet ... or a man who would deflower a girl and risk to father a bastard on her.

In fact, we have to assume that whatever attraction there was between these two never went anywhere. We should compare it to crushes Sansa and Jeyne Poole had back during the tourney. Hasty may have hoped to marry the princess, but he would have known that this was pretty much impossible.

We don't know when exactly Aerys and Rhaella married nor how long it took until Rhaella got pregnant, but there is no indication that Bonifer Hasty was even remotely in the area when that happened.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Landed knights are nobility, too, there is no contradiction there.

A landed knight is a knight who owns land.  There is no contradiction because no canon source says that Bonifer's house is a "noble" house, or that Bonifer is a "lord", which might be more to the point.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason to assume that Bonifer and Rhaella had ever sex, much less conceive a child together.

It's a theory.  The OP asked for theories, and I gave mine.  There is no reason to "assume" any theory, including R+L=J

The theory is not based on nothing, though.  Rhaegar is far too healthy and talented, and far too different from his father both physically and mentally, to be the product of 2 consecutive generations of full sibling incest.  Any healthy child without birth defects would likely be a near clone of his dad, which Rhaegar was not.  GRRM provided what I take to be an ironic clue, when he had Aerys suspect Rhaella of infidelity whenever his children were born sickly or deformed.  

There are also curious parallels to Aemon the Dragon Knight and Aerys, where it is hinted that Daeron was the son of Aemon, and that the conception may have occurred before the forced marriage (allowing Naerys to still be innocent of adultery).

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What we do know is that Bonifer cut his ties with tourney life and whatever interactions he had with Princess Rhaella when her marriage to Prince Aerys was announced - which would have been weeks or months before their wedding, and even more time before Rhaella's pregnancy.

You are inventing facts.  Barristan tells Dany that someone (presumably Bonifer) hung up his lance the day of the marriage (not the day of the announcement).  Jaime thinks that Bonifer put away his lance after a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death (Summerhall?).  Neither of them say what you are saying.

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It is also kind of ridiculous to assume Princess Rhaella had sex before her marriage.

I don't agree that the theory is ridiculous merely because it considers the possibility of premarital sex.

Quote

Aerys II was only fifteen years old in 259 AC when Rhaegar was born, and he was the elder sibling.  At the time of his wedding Aerys II was likely only fourteen and Rhaella thirteen or even only twelve. Prior to her wedding, Rhaella may not even been able to conveive.

Aerys may have been 16 when Rhaegar was born.  Rhaella may only have been a year younger.  The birth, for all we know, may have occurred 41-42 weeks after the marriage, or less, and/or 42-43 weeks after the conception, or more.  GRRM has boys sire children at 12, and has Dany get pregnant at 13.   In any event, we are not debating whether the conception of Rhaegar was possible, we are merely debating whether the father was Aerys.

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Bonifer Hasty is already a kind of weirdo having the hots for such a young girl - as are Sandor Clegane or Rhaegar Targaryen, for that matter -

Like father like son.  What's the problem?

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but it is pretty much inconceivable that a man like him would touch a girl who isn't a maiden yet ... or a man who would deflower a girl and risk to father a bastard on her.

Ummm.   Are we still talking about the GRRM-verse?  Or some alternate fictional world?

What do you mean by "a man like him"?  You mean a religious man?  You forget he did not become religious until later.   And Septon Meribald, who GRRM portrays as religious, sincere, virtuous and admirable, confesses that he was once a deflowerer or young maidens.

 

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

It's a theory.  The OP asked for theories, and I gave mine.  There is no reason to "assume" any theory, including R+L=J

The theory is not based on nothing, though.  Rhaegar is far too healthy and talented, and far too different from his father both physically and mentally, to be the product of 2 consecutive generations of full sibling incest.  Any healthy child without birth defects would likely be a near clone of his dad, which Rhaegar was not.  GRRM provided what I take to be an ironic clue, when he had Aerys suspect Rhaella of infidelity whenever his children were born sickly or deformed.  

There are also curious parallels to Aemon the Dragon Knight and Aerys, where it is hinted that Daeron was the son of Aemon, and that the conception may have occurred before the forced marriage (allowing Naerys to still be innocent of adultery).

You are inventing facts.  Barristan tells Dany that someone (presumably Bonifer) hung up his lance the day of the marriage (not the day of the announcement).  Jaime thinks that Bonifer put away his lance after a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death.  Neither of them say what you are saying.

I don't agree that the theory is ridiculous merely because it considers the possibility of premarital sex.

Aerys may have been 16 when Rhaegar was born.  Rhaella may only have been a year younger.  The birth, for all we know, may have occurred 41-42 weeks after the marriage, or less, and/or 43-43 weeks after the conception, or more.  GRRM has boys sire children at 12, and has Dany get pregnant at 13.   In any event, we are not debating whether the conception of Rhaegar was possible, we are merely debating whether the father was Aerys.

Like father like son.  What's the problem?

Ummm.   Are we still talking about the GRRM-verse?  Or some alternate fictional world?

What do you mean by "a man like him"?  You mean a religious man?  You forget he did not become religious until later.   And Septon Meribald, who GRRM portrays as religious, sincere, virtuous and admirable, confesses that he was once a deflowerer or young maidens.

 

I’m confused. You use genetics and biology to justify Aerys not being Rhaegar’s father, and then you later claim that GRRM’s world isn’t meant to be realistic when it comes to the same subjects in order for boys and girls to procreate as 12 and 13 year olds. Plus, I doubt that sexual attraction to very young girls is an hereditary trait. 

Edited by Canon Claude

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