Ramsay's treatment of "Arya"

[Lucia Targaryen]

Is anyone else a little surprised that Roose didn't try to restrain Ramsay's abuse of Jeyne/Arya?

Roose isn't stupid - he knows the Northerners hate the Boltons and are looking for an excuse to retaliate, Stannis has gotten the support of the mountain clans and Ramsay is despised for what happened to Donella Hornwood.

Obviously Roose doesn't care about Jeyne's wellbeing but from a strategic standpoint it would be better to have a compliant Arya to show off to the Northern lords than one who is locked away and crying. 

I suppose you could argue that it's in the Bolton's best interest to keep Jeyne locked away so that no one can question her but as seen in the Theon chapter from WoW Jeyne was able to answer all of Mors Umber's questions. That was the point of sending a girl who grew up in Winterfell to be Arya.

Maybe Roose was worried people would ask Jeyne where she was in King's Landing but you'd think that Littlefinger or someone would come up with a story that Jeyne could tell before she was sent off.

[nyser1]

19 minutes ago, Lucia Targaryen said:

Is anyone else a little surprised that Roose didn't try to restrain Ramsay's abuse of Jeyne/Arya?

Roose isn't stupid - he knows the Northerners hate the Boltons and are looking for an excuse to retaliate, Stannis has gotten the support of the mountain clans and Ramsay is despised for what happened to Donella Hornwood.

Obviously Roose doesn't care about Jeyne's wellbeing but from a strategic standpoint it would be better to have a compliant Arya to show off to the Northern lords than one who is locked away and crying. 

I suppose you could argue that it's in the Bolton's best interest to keep Jeyne locked away so that no one can question her but as seen in the Theon chapter from WoW Jeyne was able to answer all of Mors Umber's questions. That was the point of sending a girl who grew up in Winterfell to be Arya.

Maybe Roose was worried people would ask Jeyne where she was in King's Landing but you'd think that Littlefinger or someone would come up with a story that Jeyne could tell before she was sent off.

I really had not thought too deeply before but you do raise a good point. While Roose has the most power in the North, he is very much dependent on the Freys (as well as the Ryswells and Dustins).
 

Having Ramsay be allowed to roam like a mad dog doesn’t consolidate or solidify  Bolton rule in the North. And if Ramsay cannot get her with child well…

[Nathan Stark]

To be honest, I think Roose gets too much credit for being cunning and shrewd. What he is is phenomenally lucky. Allowing Jeyne to be treated they way she was is simply not a wise move on Roose's part, and it doesn't seem like he took any actions to mitigate her suffering. Even worse, though, is the fact that Roose almost certainly ordered the sack of Winterfell. Which may have felt good for Roose personally, but from every other standpoint is disasterous for the Bolton cause. Sacking the place that gives legitimacy to anyone holding it, that represents immense symbolic importance to the North, that provides a stable source of food and warmth during winter... may not endear you to the people you seek to rule.

[Angel Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

To be honest, I think Roose gets too much credit for being cunning and shrewd. What he is is phenomenally lucky. Allowing Jeyne to be treated they way she was is simply not a wise move on Roose's part, and it doesn't seem like he took any actions to mitigate her suffering. Even worse, though, is the fact that Roose almost certainly ordered the sack of Winterfell. Which may have felt good for Roose personally, but from every other standpoint is disasterous for the Bolton cause. Sacking the place that gives legitimacy to anyone holding it, that represents immense symbolic importance to the North, that provides a stable source of food and warmth during winter... may not endear you to the people you seek to rule.

When Ramsay seized Lady Hornwood, was he acting under Roose's orders?

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

When Ramsay seized Lady Hornwood, was he acting under Roose's orders?

Evil as the Boltons are, I don’t think Roose ordered Ramsay to take Lady Hornwood, or sack Winterfell for that matter. As someone else said, luck played a big part in things working out. The Hornwood crisis arose thanks to a number of circumstances, many of which were beyond Roose or Ramsay’s control.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Lucia Targaryen said:

Is anyone else a little surprised that Roose didn't try to restrain Ramsay's abuse of Jeyne/Arya?

Roose isn't stupid - he knows the Northerners hate the Boltons and are looking for an excuse to retaliate, Stannis has gotten the support of the mountain clans and Ramsay is despised for what happened to Donella Hornwood.

Obviously Roose doesn't care about Jeyne's wellbeing but from a strategic standpoint it would be better to have a compliant Arya to show off to the Northern lords than one who is locked away and crying. 

I suppose you could argue that it's in the Bolton's best interest to keep Jeyne locked away so that no one can question her but as seen in the Theon chapter from WoW Jeyne was able to answer all of Mors Umber's questions. That was the point of sending a girl who grew up in Winterfell to be Arya.

Maybe Roose was worried people would ask Jeyne where she was in King's Landing but you'd think that Littlefinger or someone would come up with a story that Jeyne could tell before she was sent off.

Roose may be Lord Paramount but Ramsay is lord of Winterfell, which means he runs his house as he sees fit. Simply ordering Rams to treat his wife better diminishes his standing in the eyes of the other lords, making Rams a less effective commander.

And what is Roose expected to do, exactly? Accompany Rams into the bedding chamber?

[Nathan Stark]

58 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

When Ramsay seized Lady Hornwood, was he acting under Roose's orders?

Probably. It's not like Roose is clueless about what his son is doing. It's probably closer to Roose being aware of what is likely to happen and just looking the other way. After all, Lady Hornwood's fate did help Roose politically.

50 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Evil as the Boltons are, I don’t think Roose ordered Ramsay to sack Winterfell. As someone else said, luck played a big part in things working out. The chance to sack Winterfell arose thanks to a number of circumstances, many of which were beyond Roose or Ramsay’s control.

Well, see above. Even if Roose didn't give Ramsay the order to sack Winterfell, and it's almost certain that he did imho, he knew having his bastard there with his army to root out Iron Borne was basically asking for someone to commit war crimes. The fact that Dreadfort men were so enthusiastic about sacking Winterfell after having killed its castellan and his army suggests it was done with Roose's consent, at the very least. Either way, it was a truly bonkers move on Roose's part, and if it ever comes out that it was Dreadfort men who sacked Winterfell and not Iron Borne, Roose and Ramsay are done. Period.

 

28 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Roose may be Lord Paramount but Ramsay is lord of Winterfell, which means he runs his house as he sees fit. Simply ordering Rams to treat his wife better diminishes his standing in the eyes of the other lords, making Rams a less effective commander.

And what is Roose expected to do, exactly? Accompany Rams into the bedding chamber?

Ramsay is already despised by the other Lords as it is, to the point that he is already a liability to Roose. Given that Roose has a wife, and therefore a way to make new, legitimate heirs, why would he be concerned with how his troublesome bastard is doing? Arguably, Roose would prefer that Ramsay disappear. This does tend to happen to people who are no longer usefull to Roose Bolton.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I also think were overestimating how much Roose actually cares. he's a psychopath and he doesn't think hell live long enough to sire more sons the manhood. might as well just say fuck it, keep going and see what happens. if anything else it is probably interesting for him to watch.

[Lucia Targaryen]

45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Roose may be Lord Paramount but Ramsay is lord of Winterfell, which means he runs his house as he sees fit. Simply ordering Rams to treat his wife better diminishes his standing in the eyes of the other lords, making Rams a less effective commander.

And what is Roose expected to do, exactly? Accompany Rams into the bedding chamber?

Ramsay may be the technical Lord of Winterfell but everyone knows that Roose is in control. Even the Bastard's Boys are spies for Roose.

"Diminishes his standing in the eyes of the other lords"?

Everyone hates Ramsay. Everyone knows what happened with Donella Hornwood. Glover and Manderly know about Ramsay hunting women. Barbrey Dustin is convinced that Ramsay killed her nephew. He's a bastard legitimized by the Lannisters, the family responsible for thousands of Northerners deaths, as a reward for the Red Wedding which involved breaking sacred guest right. 

There's nothing to diminish. 

"Less effective Commander"? 

Since when has Ramsay been any kind of Commander? When he sacked Winterfell which the North believes that was Theon's doing? Lying to the Ironborn at Moat Cailin? Anyone with a little bit of sense could have done that. As Stannis said in the preview Theon chapter, what great battles has Ramsay actually won?

Roose doesn't have to be in the bedroom. Just say to Ramsay that they need Arya to hold the North and to take his sadism out on other women. Ramsay restrained himself in Barrowton. He's so desperate for his father's favor that he would do it.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Roose knows what Jeyne is though and he certainly knows what Ramsay is.  I don't believe for a minute that his master plan is to conquer the North only to leave it in the hands of his homicidal bastard and his counterfeit Stark. I think he's only using Jeyne as a prop in his lies to Ramsay about legitimacy and when that lie is no longer necessary both will be disposed of. No, I don't have a theory on what his real plan is, I just doubt that it's what he's shared with his bastard or Theon or even Lady Dustin. Both Jeyne (as Arya) and Theon are important hostages, but he hasn't treated them as such. Jamie Lannister was also under his ultimate authority when he lost his hand. I don't think these are all just accidents that seem to happen on his watch, but whether it's his personal malice seeping out or if those mutilations serve him some how, I could only guess at.

[Leonardo]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:27 PM, Nathan Stark said:

To be honest, I think Roose gets too much credit for being cunning and shrewd. What he is is phenomenally lucky. Allowing Jeyne to be treated they way she was is simply not a wise move on Roose's part, and it doesn't seem like he took any actions to mitigate her suffering. Even worse, though, is the fact that Roose almost certainly ordered the sack of Winterfell. Which may have felt good for Roose personally, but from every other standpoint is disasterous for the Bolton cause. Sacking the place that gives legitimacy to anyone holding it, that represents immense symbolic importance to the North, that provides a stable source of food and warmth during winter... may not endear you to the people you seek to rule.

Sacking Winterfell was to rid them of witnesses to Ramsay’s crimes, obfuscate the truth about the Stark boys, and also to rally people with anti-ironborn sentiment.

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

Sacking Winterfell was to rid them of witnesses to Ramsay’s crimes, obfuscate the truth about the Stark boys, and also to rally people with anti-ironborn sentiment.

That doesn't make it smart. Again, even putting aside the immediate political concerns aside, Winterfell has hot springs and the gardens that make the Wintertown possible. It is literally the source of food and life for many Northerners in winter. Sacking the place that is likely to feed you for years is seriously stupid.

[Lord Lannister]

On 8/13/2021 at 2:10 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Probably. It's not like Roose is clueless about what his son is doing. It's probably closer to Roose being aware of what is likely to happen and just looking the other way. After all, Lady Hornwood's fate did help Roose politically.

Well, see above. Even if Roose didn't give Ramsay the order to sack Winterfell, and it's almost certain that he did imho, he knew having his bastard there with his army to root out Iron Borne was basically asking for someone to commit war crimes. The fact that Dreadfort men were so enthusiastic about sacking Winterfell after having killed its castellan and his army suggests it was done with Roose's consent, at the very least. Either way, it was a truly bonkers move on Roose's part, and if it ever comes out that it was Dreadfort men who sacked Winterfell and not Iron Borne, Roose and Ramsay are done. Period.

 

Ramsay is already despised by the other Lords as it is, to the point that he is already a liability to Roose. Given that Roose has a wife, and therefore a way to make new, legitimate heirs, why would he be concerned with how his troublesome bastard is doing? Arguably, Roose would prefer that Ramsay disappear. This does tend to happen to people who are no longer usefull to Roose Bolton.

I kinda agree. Roose is letting Ramsay do his thing so long as it's yielding useful results. The moment Ramsay becomes a liability he'll have use as a scapegoat. Roose wouldn't hesitate for a moment to sell out Ramsay for his gain to take the blame for... anything going wrong at the moment.

[nyser1]

What exactly is Ramsay achieving right now? He’s making enemies out of Bolton loyalists/the ambivalent just as much as he is alienating Stark sympathizers and loyalists. And to be frank, aside from the Boltons no single house really hated the Starks. Lady Dustin hated Ned, that’s about it.

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I kinda agree. Roose is letting Ramsay do his thing so long as it's yielding useful results. The moment Ramsay becomes a liability he'll have use as a scapegoat. Roose wouldn't hesitate for a moment to sell out Ramsay for his gain to take the blame for... anything going wrong at the moment.

If things go wrong. As far as we're seeing (if we take the Pink Letter as face value), Ramsay's already won. If Ramsay does get comeuppance.

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

If things go wrong. As far as we're seeing (if we take the Pink Letter as face value), Ramsay's already won. If Ramsay does get comeuppance.

We already have enough information not to take the Pink Letter at face value. We know Stannis isn't dead, and is in fact alive at around the time the Pink Letter claims he is dead.

[TheLastWolf]

We have to hate him all the more, make's Theonreek's character arc better, helps the escape plot...

not saying its a contrivance...nearly

[John Suburbs]

On 8/13/2021 at 3:10 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Ramsay is already despised by the other Lords as it is, to the point that he is already a liability to Roose. Given that Roose has a wife, and therefore a way to make new, legitimate heirs, why would he be concerned with how his troublesome bastard is doing? Arguably, Roose would prefer that Ramsay disappear. This does tend to happen to people who are no longer usefull to Roose Bolton.

Ramsay was despised long before he became lord of Winterfell, so by that logic why would Roose legitimize him in the first place and then hand Winterfell over to him when he could just as easily have taken it himself? And he is perfectly OK with Ramsay killing his heirs from Walda. He needs Ramsay as LoW for some reason, which will undoubtedly become clear before long.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/13/2021 at 3:39 PM, Lucia Targaryen said:

Ramsay may be the technical Lord of Winterfell but everyone knows that Roose is in control. Even the Bastard's Boys are spies for Roose.

"Diminishes his standing in the eyes of the other lords"?

Everyone hates Ramsay. Everyone knows what happened with Donella Hornwood. Glover and Manderly know about Ramsay hunting women. Barbrey Dustin is convinced that Ramsay killed her nephew. He's a bastard legitimized by the Lannisters, the family responsible for thousands of Northerners deaths, as a reward for the Red Wedding which involved breaking sacred guest right. 

There's nothing to diminish. 

"Less effective Commander"? 

Since when has Ramsay been any kind of Commander? When he sacked Winterfell which the North believes that was Theon's doing? Lying to the Ironborn at Moat Cailin? Anyone with a little bit of sense could have done that. As Stannis said in the preview Theon chapter, what great battles has Ramsay actually won?

Roose doesn't have to be in the bedroom. Just say to Ramsay that they need Arya to hold the North and to take his sadism out on other women. Ramsay restrained himself in Barrowton. He's so desperate for his father's favor that he would do it.

Everyone hated Ramsay when he was still a bastard. So by this logic, why would Roose legitimize him at all and make him lord of Winterfell? He needs Ramsay in that position for some reason. But he doesn't need the other lords to like him or even respect him, just fear him and acknowledge him as the rightful LoW, which they won't do if Roose is telling him how to treat his wife.

A less effective commander in the sense that lords won't listen to their liege if they don't think he's the one making decisions, just like Cat would not argue with Robb in front of the banners, only in private, nor would she send him back to Winterfell. He would lose all authority in the north, forever. It's the mistake Cersei made with Joffrey on the Blackwater -- as soon as the men saw him leave they threw down their swords and fled.

Yes, Roose would prefer Rams tamp things down with Arya, but he is not going to command him to do this in front of the men. He has private conversations with him.

[TheLastWolf]

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

He needs Ramsay as LoW for some reason, which will undoubtedly become clear before long.

Spoiler

But I hope the father doesn't delay too long for the son to pull of a abomination like plot occurrence, namely patricide 

Both dying simultaneously would be sweet