DMC Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Fez said: France is even angrier about the AUKUS announcement than I would've guessed... Even their ambassadors retreat immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Much as I am constitutionally required to hate the French, not least for being the primary reason you rebels and traitors are even independent in the first place, given recent events it might be time to retire this particular meme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Ran said: France is outside the norm of the EU for having any Pacific territories to speak of. I can kind of understand their annoyance, but the reality is that their involvement in the EU would greatly complicate any defense pact that included France It took this comment for me to realize there was a potential defense pact involved. The first headlines I saw in the French press focused on the fact that the defense industry lost the "deal of the century" ; 35 billion euros and hundreds of jobs. And specifically, 8 billion for a company called "Naval Group," that's 60% owned by the French state itself. Sure, the way it was done adds insult to injury (hence the diplomatic "crisis," that I see as fake outrage, quite frankly), but I'd say it seems that, on the French side, this was always about making a big sale and not much more. There wasn't going to be any major transfer of technology (the press had made that very clear when the deal was initially sealed), and, as you say, France wasn't going to invest in the region, strategically speaking (it has neither the will nor the resources). BTW, New-Caledonia may very well become independent next year, or seriously autonomous at the very least, as there's a referendum about that coming up. In a nutshell, the US is no doubt offering Australia more for its money, and everyone knows that. Just as everybody knows that neither France nor the EU intend to seriously stand up to China in the near future. Way I see it, the fake outrage is i) because France is a pretty big arms dealer, the government and the defense industry don't want that kind of thing to repeat itself, so they have to make a point, and ii) maybe they're hoping to get some kind of compensation. I have a few anecdotes about the corruption and kickbacks that defense deals imply in France (our political class is shamelessly corrupt). Also, for all we know, this whole thing is payback for something else. France has always been a reluctant NATO partner (Trump hurt that alliance badly: Macron even pronounced it "dead" in 2019), while historically pushing for a stronger European military alliance independent of the US. I dunno how true that is (I have this idea that @Hereward will know that), but there's a perception here that the UK was an obstacle to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impmk2 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Sure, the way it was done adds insult to injury (hence the diplomatic "crisis," that I see as fake outrage, quite frankly), but I'd say it seems that, on the French side, this was always about making a big sale and not much more. There wasn't going to be any major transfer of technology (the press had made that very clear when the deal was initially sealed), and, as you say, France wasn't going to invest in the region, strategically speaking (it has neither the will nor the resources). BTW, New-Caledonia may very well become independent next year, or seriously autonomous at the very least, as there's a referendum about that coming up. ... I'm glad that's the view from the French side. I think that's overwhelmingly the view here on the Australian side too. I'd previously heard no mention of any strategic partnership, and I tend to follow the news pretty closely. Think most people here will view it as a calculated overreaction and hard to take seriously. The US deal is being sold as far more about the US taking a more active role in the pacific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 12 hours ago, DMC said: Even their ambassadors retreat immediately. Stupid comment. MAGA Style 12 hours ago, JEORDHl said: Missed this, just shared in the US thread. Quite the reaction. Correct reaction. What the US and there lapdogs, the UK and Australia, have done is way worse business behavior than anything China has shown towards France for that matter. There was a contract since 2016, a very substantial contract. The damage done is enormous. My company is affected as well, as we provided the gensets. It‘s ok though, not a major loss. But be assured: this is how you destroy partnerships. This is typical American business behavior, as Germany knows too well (Echelon etc). Bullying and taking every legal or illegal advantage. You are worse business partners than Russians or Chinese, from a correctness point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Arakan said: Stupid comment. MAGA Style It was a joke. Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself. And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 Goats, the latest fire prevention weapon. In the US: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/business/wildfires-goats-prevention.html In Ireland: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/goats-return-to-howth-hills-in-bid-to-control-wildfires-1.4668247 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 Working in the shipbuilding industry, I can fully emphasize with the pain France must feel over losing such an enormous contract. Hopefully there could be some future offsets were they could recoup a slice of the lost business? When it comes to a sub or ship there are hundreds of firms involved in the supply and parts chain. So even if one company gets the build contract there will be a myriad of other companies that will still benefit from a program the size of that supply contract, no one entity does it all on its own. It's just a shame to see the bad blood that cut throat contractual infighting has caused between two great western powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 Ya, that did seem a rather excessive contractual grab, at least from what I understand, when it involves a friend and ally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Only reason I knew about the US/UK/Australia deal is because the conservatives here were using it an another "example" of the PM's failure. Cause they're desperate. Everyone else was just confused at the idea of Canada being involved at all. We don't make subs, and we have no particular interests in the area. It was weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiko Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 13 hours ago, DMC said: It was a joke. Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself. And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare. Could have been worded better but he lists well known facts you can look up. There are more too. Businesses need to be as careful with five eyes states as they are with China and the US is throwing it's weight around to give their businesses every unfair advantage they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Just now, kiko said: Could have been worded better but he lists well known facts you can look up. There are more too. ......I wasn't referring to that one post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiko Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 From their standpoint, Australia is not to blame here. If they get a significant better offer they can probably get out of the original contract. There is most likely a heavy compensation clause. Not sure who will footing the bill but I'm afraid that the Australian tax payer is paying double now. I also can't help but remembering the original reporting were it has been hinted that the French offer was not exactly the best anyway. It also is not without irony that the one time France is not pushing nuclear power they are beaten by someone offering nucular to the Australians. I think that the US gave the European army a big leg up. Thanks for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 18 hours ago, DMC said: It was a joke. Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself. And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare. Aha. Interesting. Xenophobia is thrown at me. Doesn’t matter. What matters is that the USA is a BULLY as bad as China or Russia or even worse because you are more powerful. You always want to have it your way. And the reason you throw xenophobia at me is because you simply don’t know the stuff or you cannot emphatize how it feels to be on the receiving end of US arrogance. North Stream 2 is another good example how you treat your „partners“ when they don’t „listen“ to you. Maybe inform yourself. In other news: the US revenge drone attack end of August (after the Kabul Airport bombing) that had killed 10 civilians, including 7 children, and no IS members, was a „tragic mistake“ as the Pentagon (Gen. McKenzie) now acknowledges. Well, the children are dead anyway but hey, the Pentagon said it was a mistake. So all is good and forgiven I guess. Go Team USA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 18 hours ago, DMC said: It was a joke. Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself. And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare. Another thing. The „it was a joke“ Defence…Are you aware how sick and tired many French are to be constantly ridiculed or portrayed as cowards? Are you aware how arrogant this joke is anyway. Why couldn’t you help yourself and had to make it anyway? Why? Ask yourself this. This „joke“ comes from the same mindset as many sexist or racists „jokes“ as well. All just harmless banter, with no ill will of course. The standard defence. Think about it a little bit. You want to portray yourself as a progressive and educated American, but use a typical MAGA joke. Why? And instead of just owning it, you throw at me xenophobia. Poor imperial USA, now their citizens face online xenophobic comments…not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiko Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Arakan said: You want to portray yourself as a progressive and educated American, but use a typical MAGA joke. Not sure where this one is coming from. What does it have to do with MAGA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 17 minutes ago, kiko said: Not sure where this one is coming from. What does it have to do with MAGA? To make fun of France, surrender monkeys. I read it mostly from those affiliated with the Republicans or those „America is the greatest“ Crew. It’s a bad and insulting „joke“ anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Arakan said: To make fun of France, surrender monkeys. I read it mostly from those affiliated with the Republicans or those „America is the greatest“ Crew. It’s a bad and insulting „joke“ anyway. Nah, making fun of France for surrendering is pretty much a universal joke enjoyed around the world I’m afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 5 hours ago, kiko said: From their standpoint, Australia is not to blame here. If they get a significant better offer they can probably get out of the original contract. There is most likely a heavy compensation clause. Not sure who will footing the bill but I'm afraid that the Australian tax payer is paying double now. I also can't help but remembering the original reporting were it has been hinted that the French offer was not exactly the best anyway. It also is not without irony that the one time France is not pushing nuclear power they are beaten by someone offering nucular to the Australians. I think that the US gave the European army a big leg up. Thanks for nothing! You don't break a valid contract just because somebody else makes a better offer. I's a bit more complicated, though. Looks like the Australians had been unhappy with the deal for some time as the French not only kept missing deadlines but also reduced Australia's share of the production. https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-its-french-sub-deal/ Fitting diesel engines to a submarine designed for a nuclear power plant might not have been the best idea to begin with. Has that ever been done successfully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiko Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 12 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Nah, making fun of France for surrendering is pretty much a universal joke enjoyed around the anglosphere I’m afraid. Fixed that for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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