Targaryen Scorecard

[Groo]

When you're new to the forum one of the first things you learn is that there are far more Targaryens in the story than you probably realized from your own inadequate reading of the novels. You probably started out thinking that the only Targaryens were Viserys, Daenerys, and possibly Young Griff. You might have been drawn to the forum by the intriguing idea that there was another. You heard about Jon Snow possibly being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and wanted to read more about it. But that's only the beginning! The forum is rich in discussion of all the many other Targaryens. As a public service, here's a handy scorecard to get you started.

• Mance Rayder is really Rhaegar Targaryen
• Tyrion Lannister is really the son of Aerys II and Joanna Lannister
• Illyrio Mopatis is a Targaryen/Blackfyre
• Varys is a Targaryen/Blackfyre
• Old Nan is really Rhae Targaryen
• Craster is really the son of Aemon Targaryen

There are so many that I'm sure I'm missing some. Who else is a Targaryen?

[StarksInTheNorth]

At least one person thinks that Duncan the Tall is really a Blackfyre. Also Barristan Selmy. 

[EggBlue]

following the pattern in which Tyrion and Old Nan are Targeryens, probably half Essos and all of Westeros

[Groo]

2 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

At least one person thinks that Duncan the Tall is really a Blackfyre. Also Barristan Selmy. 

I don't know which of those two is more implausible.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Olenna Tyrell is descended from Calla Blackfyre, apparently. Apparently she was married off into the Redwynes in order to provide ships for the evacuation of the Blackfyre loyalists. 

[Groo]

8 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Olenna Tyrell is descended from Calla Blackfyre, apparently. Apparently she was married off into the Redwynes in order to provide ships for the evacuation of the Blackfyre loyalists. 

So, that means we need to add Olenna, Mace, Willas, Garlan, Loras, and Margaery to the list. Now that I think about it, aren't Horas and Hobber Redwyne her grandchildren too?

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, Groo said:

So, that means we need to add Olenna, Mace, Willas, Garlan, Loras, and Margaery to the list. Now that I think about it, aren't Horas and Hobber Redwyne her grandchildren too?

Yes. And cousin too, I think. 

[Lord Lannister]

I stick to my theory that Hot Pie is a bastard son of the Mad King and a peasant woman and is the true Azor Ahai Reborn. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

Half of the named characters in the series are secret Targaryens; the other half are secret Faceless Men. It is known.

[Loose Bolt]

Considering how horny Aegon IV was most people living in Westeros and many living elsewhere nowadays are at least partly Targs even most Faceless Men.

[Daeron the Daring]

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

following the pattern in which Tyrion and Old Nan are Targeryens, probably half Essos and all of Westeros

Well, I personally don't like the idea, and I would be the happiest if it wasn't the case, but Tyrion being the bastard son of Aerys is certainly a possibility, a very likely one. 

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, I personally don't like the idea, and I would be the happiest if it wasn't the case, but Tyrion being the bastard son of Aerys is certainly a possibility, a very likely one. 

it is a possibility... yes . but a lot lower than some people seem to think. I suppose people often ignore that the said fact about Aerys's feelings for Joanna can simply be another good reason for Aerys's jealousy and behavior towards Tywin. I believe Martin himself cares more about the development of his characters ( Aerys's arc from a sad depressed teen to a mad king in this case)   than a dozen hidden Targaryens.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

it is a possibility... yes . but a lot lower than some people seem to think. I suppose people often ignore that the said fact about Aerys's feelings for Joanna can simply be another good reason for Aerys's jealousy and behavior towards Tywin. I believe Martin himself cares more about the development of his characters ( Aerys's arc from a sad depressed teen to a mad king in this case)   than a dozen hidden Targaryens.

As someone who really doesn't want it to be the case, I can tell you it isn't as unlikely as you imagine. You can surely find on various threads everything about it. 

[EggBlue]

19 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

As someone who really doesn't want it to be the case, I can tell you it isn't as unlikely as you imagine. You can surely find on various threads everything about it. 

no . I never said it's unlikely. then again there are other things that could be logical too. I have skimmed through some of these threads and explanations. there seem to be 3 main reasons in favor of this theory:

1. Aerys's feelings about Joanna: but as I stated above , it could be another factor fueling Aerys's heart with hatred towards a man he used to admire. 

2. Tyrion's conception: it could be true that Aerys raped Joanna or even that they had an affair but on the other hand , in that time Tywin was hand of the king so it's more logical that his wife comes to see him at court than him going to Casterly Rock to see her

3. Tyrion's dragon dreams: the thing with this is that there is no account that these dreams are prophetic ( like Dany's) we only know that they involve dragons which must be something fascinating to a curious bookish boy who can't be above his siblings in any way other than imagining himself at the sky on top of a dragon. 

 anyways , I know some of these hidden T theories might be true and this one's one of the better ones ,but that's not as good a story as the boy who was despised and doubted by his father to be his actual son , in biology and character alike.

[Lord Lannister]

Joking aside, there is a good case to be made for A+J=T. With all the clues sprinkled into the novels hinting at that, it can't be at random. Even if it is the case, I don't think we'll have it directly spelled out to us or that it'll have an impact on the overall story though. Just a neat little snippet.

[Groo]

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I stick to my theory that Hot Pie is a bastard son of the Mad King and a peasant woman and is the true Azor Ahai Reborn. 

What better way to survive the Frozen Zombie Apocalypse than to have the savior Hot Pie delivering delicious hot pies to the starving people.

[WhatAnArtist!]

7 minutes ago, Groo said:

What better way to survive the Frozen Zombie Apocalypse than to have the savior Hot Pie delivering delicious hot pies to the starving people.

Ser Hot Pie, the Pie Knight, his standard - three gold pies on a white field. A worthy successor to Ser Davos.

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, Groo said:

I don't know which of those two is more implausible.

I explained those theories here:

this one is about Dunk -

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159019-swan-song-part-516-the-real-cause-of-the-first-blackfyre-rebellion/

and this one is about Barristan -

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159022-swan-song-part-816-the-real-cause-of-the-fourth-blackfyre-rebellion/

12 hours ago, Groo said:

Who else is a Targaryen?

In my opinion, Dunk's parents were Princess Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre. So obviously all of Dunk's descendants are also partially Targaryens by blood.

And let's not forget that the current Martells, including all Sand Snakes, are descendants of Princess Daenerys and her husband - Maron Martell.

Other possible dragonseeds/partial Targaryens:

Dunk's children:

- a set of twins, a boy and a girl, born by Old Nan/Alysanne Stark.

The boy was Hodor's paternal grandfather, and the girl had two daughters, one of which got married with the man who later founded House Clegane, and the other daughter married with a member of House Cafferen. So Hodor is a descendant of Dunk's son; and the descendants of Dunk's daughter are Gregor and Sandor Cleganes, and Meris Cafferen - Brienne's mother. So Brienne is partially Targaryen thru her mother - Dunk's great-granddaughter and Hodor's second cousin - Meris Cafferen/Wenda the White Fawn/Pretty Meris from the Windblown sellswords company;

- a set of twins, two boys, born by Tanselle-too-Tall. Possibly they founded House Drinkwater, thus amongst Dunk's descendants there's Geris Drinkwater and his twin-sisters;

- a daughter born by Rohanne Webber - Jenny of Oldstones.

Jenny's children:

- a daughter fathered by Duncan the Small - Melisandre;

- a set of twins, a girl and a boy, fathered by Maelys Blackfyre - Serra and Varys.

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar - one of Aegon IV's bastards. Bloodraven.

In my opinion Calla Blackfyre married with Runceford Redwyne, so Olenna Tyrell and her older brother and all their descendants are also partially Targaryens (Blackfyres) by blood. Olenna's nephew - Paxter Redwyne and his children - Horas, Hobber, Desmera. Olenna's children - Mina (the wife of her first cousin - Paxter), Mace and his children - Willas, Garlan, Loras, Margaery; Janna Tyrell. There's also Desmond and Bethany Redwynes and their four children, though it isn't known whether they are also Runceford's and Calla's descendants or not.

There was Viserys Plumm - a bastard of Elaena Targaryen and Aegon IV. Amongst their descendants is Brown Ben Plumm.

In my opinion during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Viserys Plumm supported the Blackfyres, so when they lost and had to escape to Essos, Viserys with his (Dornish) wife and children also went with Bittersteel, Rohanne of Tyrosh and Daemon Blackfyre's children (they were Viserys' nephews and nieces, so he was responsible for them, same as Bittersteel). And when years later Daemon II died while being kept as a hostage of the Targaryens, Bittersteel gathered Daemon I's supporters and founded the Golden Company. They needed horses, thus they traded with the Dothraki, and as a payment for the Dothraki giving 10.000 horses for the Golden Company, one of Viserys Plumm's daughters married with a Dothraki Khal (she was a first cousin of Daemon II, Calla Blackfyre, and Haegon I who became the leader of the Golden Company during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion that occurred shortly after GC's founding). Same as Viserys Targaryen married off his sister Daenerys to Khal Drogo, as a payment for 10.000 Dothraki-warriors that Drogo was supposed to lend to Viserys. Same as Bittersteel gave up his niece, who was also his fiancee, and married her off to Runceford Redwyne, as a payment to the Redwynes, for lending their fleet for transporting Blackfyre-loyalists and Daemon's family across the Narrow Sea. This daughter of Viserys Plumm, the one who married with a Dothraki Khal, in my opinion is a great-grandmother of Brown Ben Plumm. Viserys Plumm was close in age to Maekar Targaryen, so their children also were close in age. And one of Maekar's children until recently was still alive - maester Aemon. So I think that there is a very likely possibility that Viserys Plumm's daughter, the one that married with a Dothraki Khal in exchange for 10.000 horses for the Golden Company, is still alive, and thus she is at Vaes Dothrak amongst the other dosh khaleen. And thus Dany will meet her there when Khal Pono, whom she met in her last chapter in ADWD, will bring her to Vaes Dothrak, to join the other widowed khalesees. That's when that crone will share with Dany that she was Khal Drogo's great-grandmother. Yes, that's how it is - Khal Drogo was also partially Targaryen. Him and Brown Ben Plumm were second cousins, same as Hodor is a second cousin of Pretty Meris, the Hound and the Mountain. GRRM likes to draw that kind of parallels in his books - Dany - a sister of Viserys Targaryen, who got married off to Khal Drogo as a payment for 10.000 Dothraki-warriors, will meet at Vaes Dothrak with a daughter of Viserys Plumm, who got married off to a Khal as a payment for 10.000 Dothraki horses. Also GRRM likes to add all sorts of trinities - three dragonseed-brides as a payment for - 1. transportation across the Narrow Sea for Daemon Blackfyre's family and his loyalists; 2. 10.000 horses for the Golden Company; and 3. 10.000 Dothraki for the invasion into the 7K.

Khal Drogo was Aegon the Unworthy's 3-times-great-grandson. And there were many other characters in ASOIAF that also were Aegon's 3-times-great-grandchildren. For example: Lyanna Stark and her siblings, Petyr Baelish, Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure Tully, Wynafrei Whent, the current Black Pearl of Braavos, Brown Ben Plumm (besides being a descendant of Viserys Plumm's daughter, he had additional Targaryen blood in his gene-pool - his mother was a Dothraki, though his father was half-Braavosi and half-Summer Islander - a great-grandson of Balerion Otherys, bastard-son of Aegon IV), the current Sealord of Braavos, etc.

Now explanation about Lyanna being partially Targaryen:

Melissa Blackwood was one of Aegon IV's mistresses, and she gave birth to three of his bastards - Bloodraven, Gwenys and Mya Rivers. In my opinion, Melissa's mother was Maryah Stark - a daughter of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood. So Cregan Stark was Melissa's grandfather, and he didn't wanted her to be a mistress, thus he had challenged Aegon to a duel, with a demand to end their relationship, if he will win. Though because Aegon was a royalty, he had a sworn shield - his brother, Aemond the Dragonknight. That's why there's a story that Cregan Stark once had fought with the Dragonknight. Obviously he won, despite being much older than Aemond, and then Aegon broke up with Melissa. One of Melissa's daughters - Mya Rivers, married with her cousin - a Blackwood, and their daughters were Melantha and Betha Blackwood. Betha married with Egg (Aegon V), and her sister Melantha married with Willam Stark, whose younger sister Alysanne (Old Nan) was Duncan the Tall's paramour. Like this:

Alysanne Blackwood + Cregan Stark = Maryah Stark + Blackwood-husband = Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV Targaryen = Mya Rivers + Blackwood-husband = Melantha Blackwood + Willam Stark = Edwyle Stark + Marna Locke = Rickard Stark + Lyarra = Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen <- Aegon the Unworthy's 3-times-great-grandchildren and 1/32 Targaryens by blood.

Concerning Littlefinger, Whents and the Tully-siblings you can read explanation here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159021-swan-song-part-716-the-bastard-of-harrenhal/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159078-swan-song-part-1516-the-false-prophet/

There are also descendants of Princess Elaena Targaryen - House Penrose and House Longwaters, and Plumms. There's descendants of Aegon III and Viserys II's half-sister - Rhaena Targaryen, who had six daughters with Garmund Hightower.

In my opinion one of those daughters married with her Hightower-cousin, and their children continued House Hightower; one of the other girls married with an Arryn, and her descendants were Alyss Arryn (wife of her third cousin - Rhaegel Targaryen) and the other Arryns; the other girl married with a Dayne, and her descendants were Dyanna Dayne (wife of her third cousin - Maekar Targaryen) and her siblings that continued House Dayne (thus Arthur, Ashara, Allyria, Edric and Gerold Daynes are also partially Targaryens by blood); and one other out of Rhaena's six daughters possibly had married with a member of House Dondarrion, and their descendants were Jenna Dondarrion (wife of her third cousin - Baelor Targaryen) and her siblings who had continued House Dondarrion (thus Berric Dondarrion was also partially Targaryen).

Also I think that Ambrose Butterwell was one of Aegon IV's bastards, so if him and his Frey-bride, whose wedding was featured in The Mystery Knight novel, had children, then their descendants are also partially Targaryens.

Besides Edwyle Stark, Melantha Blackwood, who in my opinion was a dragonseed, had a daughter - Jocelyn, who married with Benedict Royce. So the current Royces are also potentially Targaryens by blood. Maybe.

There's also old Shella Whent and her daughter Wynafrei, who is married with Danwell Frey - one of Walder Frey's children.

In Braavos, besides the current Black Pearl and the current Sealord, there may be other descendants of Bellegere Otherys and Aegon IV.

Same amongst the Dothraki - besides Khal Drogo and Brown Ben Plumm, there could have been others who are also descendants of Viserys Plumm and/or Balerion Otherys (<- like Ben's father, who had married with a Dothraki-woman that was one of Viserys Plumm's grandchildren. Viserys' daughter, who married with a Dothraki Khal, could have had many children, so their descendants could be still around).

Robert Baratheon's bastards. Stannis and Shireen.

House Blackwood, thru descendants of Mya Rivers. One of her daughters had married with a Stark, another with Targaryen, but maybe she had more children and those children continued House Blackwood. There was also Bloodraven's other sister - Gwenys. She could have also married with a Blackwood, or with a member of some other Great House in the Riverlands, or she could have married even outside of the Riverlands.

Additionally about Rhaena Targaryen and her six daughters - four of them married with Hightower, Dayne, Arryn, Dondarrion, so with whom had married the remaining two? So potentially there are two more Great Houses of the 7K, whose members also could be unaccounted dragonseeds/Targaryens. There's also the descendants of Aegon IV's other bastards. And there are Egg's sisters - Rhae and Daella. Them or their children/grandchildren could have survived Summerhall's Burning. There was also Aerion Brighflame's son Maegor, and his niece Vaella - daughter of Daeron the Drunken.

Also GRRM said that while Aerion was in his exile in Lys, he could have fathered there several bastards. So I think that one of his descendants is Illyrio Mopatis.

That's it. In total - 100+ potential Targaryens.

[Groo]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Now explanation about Lyanna being partially Targaryen:

Melissa Blackwood was one of Aegon IV's mistresses, and she gave birth to three of his bastards - Bloodraven, Gwenys and Mya Rivers. In my opinion, Melissa's mother was Maryah Stark - a daughter of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood. So Cregan Stark was Melissa's grandfather, and he didn't wanted her to be a mistress, thus he had challenged Aegon to a duel, with a demand to end their relationship, if he will win. Though because Aegon was a royalty, he had a sworn shield - his brother, Aemond the Dragonknight. That's why there's a story that Cregan Stark once had fought with the Dragonknight. Obviously he won, despite being much older than Aemond, and then Aegon broke up with Melissa. One of Melissa's daughters - Mya Rivers, married with her cousin - a Blackwood, and their daughters were Melantha and Betha Blackwood. Betha married with Egg (Aegon V), and her sister Melantha married with Willam Stark, whose younger sister Alysanne (Old Nan) was Duncan the Tall's paramour. Like this:

Alysanne Blackwood + Cregan Stark = Maryah Stark + Blackwood-husband = Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV Targaryen = Mya Rivers + Blackwood-husband = Melantha Blackwood + Willam Stark = Edwyle Stark + Marna Locke = Rickard Stark + Lyarra = Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen <- Aegon the Unworthy's 3-times-great-grandchildren and 1/32 Targaryens by blood.

Wait. The Starks are Targaryens?

[Jaenara Belarys]

11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Half of the named characters in the series are secret Targaryens; the other half are secret Faceless Men. It is known.

NO, NO, NO. You're supposed to say "This is known" and then somebody else will say "It is known." This is known. 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Joking aside, there is a good case to be made for A+J=T. With all the clues sprinkled into the novels hinting at that, it can't be at random. Even if it is the case, I don't think we'll have it directly spelled out to us or that it'll have an impact on the overall story though. Just a neat little snippet.

There's  also A+J=J+C. Think about it. They're beautiful, they like incest......though there is a fairly strong case for A+J=T. Just look at how GRRM describes Tyrion in the Feast at Winterfell Jon chapter. 

12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I stick to my theory that Hot Pie is a bastard son of the Mad King and a peasant woman and is the true Azor Ahai Reborn. 

Born amidst the salt and smoke of Flea Bottom pot shops, our hero set out to the Night's Watch to fight with a flaming pie against the darkness! Hail, Azor Ahai reborn!