The Wheel of Time: The Wheel Weaves as Jeff Bezos Wills (Book Spoilers)

[Werthead]

Assuming Season 2 of The Witcher got the standard S2 bump for a Netflix show, it's budget is probably now on a par with WoT's, or almost so with the benefit of everyone having an extra season to bed in (plus of the benefit of a story that is comparatively small in scale and scope, and certainly cast size).

I do need to watch S2 of The Witcher but new seasons/episodes of Archer, WoT and The Expanse all dropped simultaneously, which took precedence.

[horangi]

I can't believe I am the first to respond to this thread since Episode 7 dropped.  As someone who has fond memories of the series and did the usual arguing about whether Bela was the Dark One with friends in high school, I recognized the flaws as I grew older and read more.   I still enjoyed the first 6 episodes and was wondering why folks were so upset about small details here and there.  That said, this episode was... a dumpster fire... it seems like they tried to squeeze three episodes worth of world building into 60 minutes with virtually every human interaction needing a couple extra seconds of screen time to make it work.  I am guessing COVID led to some major changes in production and direction. There were a couple scenes from where Moraine was looking out on the balcony to Nynaeve observing Lan enjoying life with a random family that were decent emotion building scenes, but the rest seemed liked they hired the cousin of the producer and editor to mix the footage of the episode.  For the most part, I dont really blame the actors, since most of them had convincing scenes in earlier episodes.   Unfortunately, that doesnt really include Perrin and Rand, who sadly would need to carry this epic along with the now exiled Matt.  At first, I really loved how they put the Aes Sadei and aspirants as the center of the show as a remix (including the intro credit visages).  But now I am skeptical that its a pivot recognizing that the three ta'veren of the books were not exactly compelling on the big screen. 

[Darryk]

Thought the episode was okay. The fourth episode is still the one that's come closest to capturing the grandeur of the books for me.

Not sure why they added a Perrin-Rand-Egwene love triangle, just as I'm still not sure why the Perrin-kills-his-wife storyline.

Rand realising and accepting he's the Dragon Reborn so quickly didn't sit right. His arc is by far my favorite thing about the books but based on what I've seen so far I don't trust this show to do it justice.

Obviously the show's not doing a great job of depicting arms and armor realistically but not even GoT did the best job with that, so I guess it's top be expected.

I will keep watching the show, and trying to find things to enjoy about it, cause that's my usual approach (I forgave a lot of GoT right up until the 8th season when I finally gave up on it), but I'm not getting that much enjoyment out of this adaptation. I'm glad a lot of non-book readers seem to be enjoying it.

[Maia]

I liked this episode. I am generally on-board with most changes that the show made, since while I am a fan of WoT book series  I also have a lot of issues with certain major aspects of it, which I wish would have been done differently.

Taking into account the practicalities of Harris leaving, I am not mad about them inserting Perrin's subconscious/unrequited feelings for Egwene as conflict fodder. I mean, as a reader I certainly came away from their flight/Tinker chapters in EoTW with the impression that he had them. As long as that's over and done with, I am OK. There is plenty of time to set up his conflict with his berserker/warrior nature. And frankly, in the books he came across as annoying in his reluctance to deal with his wolfiness after Elias's mentoring, because it was so obvious that he'd be OK if only he stopped fighting it. It would potentially work better in the show if he has to wrangle with it on his own first and maybe see that guy who went full wolf before he meets Elias.

I also think that it was absolutely in character for Rand to come forth to save Egwene and his friends, particularly since he believes that it would be a one-and-done deal that he won't survive. He could still become plausibly reluctant when it becomes clear that he has to be there for the long haul and break the world no matter what he does. Also, it lays foundation for him trying to go it alone in the future.

There is also the fact that the boys come into their own and become people of consequence earlier than the girls do in the books, so foregrounding the girls in the first season - which also largely depicts the status quo that is about to change, makes sense to me. 

I do think that they needed to indicate the passage of time when travelling through the Ways better. And also make clear that Machin Shin would drive them insane or something. Not sure what Loial was supposed to do there in particular, except exposite more. Also not sure what more we could have learned about the EF5 at this point.

 

19 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 I wasn't expecting Lan and Nyneave to get together for some reason, so that is throwing me off. I guess it's just another little expectation of Lan keeping her at arm's length because he's got no future.

But in this version they both got no future, so it makes perfect sense that Lan wouldn't resist, IMHO. I mean, he expects to die in a day or 2 and she also has at least 3/4 chance of dying ditto.  In fact, I fully expect that as a result of Moiraine giving him the slip + Nynaeve getting a new lease on life his later rejection could work much more believably and poignantly than the book equivalent.  

 

14 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Regarding Agelmar, didn't seem hostile to Moiraine to me.  He was being a dick to his sister really.  Shienar is suppose to be more patriarchial, and he was patronizing her. 

 

So, one of the things that don't work in the books for me is the absence of AS at Tarwin's Gap and the fact that the Shienarans still revere them afterwards.  I mean, it has been known for months that the attack was coming and it would have required a level of incompetence worse than Elaida's on Siuan's part not to send help, BA machinations and the White Tower being flawed here or there. That alone should have led to her deposition, frankly. The show actually improves on this, by making  Shienarans less friendly to the White Tower and by making the attack sudden (presumably). IIRC, Shienar wasn't patriarchal in the books, but there was a very strong "separate, but equal" energy.

OTOH, there are certain things that seem muddled in the episode - like, The Eye of the World being just a day's foot march away from Fal Dara - so why did they initially aim for a Waygate in the Blight? Or Moiraine siccing the Reds on Mat - OK, it makes sense to demonstrate Moiraine's ruthlessness in the pursuit of her duty and to give Mat an actual reason to hate the OP and dislike her, because in the books both the AS in general and Moiraine in particular do nothing but help him until like book 6 and he is rude and ungrateful in return for no valid reason. So, on that level this works. OTOH, doesn't it risk Mat blabbing about Moiraine's mission and the 4 other Dragon Reborn candidates to the Reds? Or does Moiraine truly believe that they can short-circuit the Last Battle and afterwards it wouldn't matter? Also, is she completely unaware of the possibility of the BA?

I  thought that in the episode 6 when Siuan sent her to the Eye they both were convinced that it was a death sentence not just for the kids who weren't the Dragon, but also for Moiraine herself? So why was she so shaken by the viewing that an Amyrlin would be her downfall, when she already knew that she was going to her death on Siuan's word? And how can it possibly happen? I mean in the books it is the other way round and even if they intend to kill Moiraine for good at the end of the 3rd season, would they really rob her of a heroic death against Lanfear in favor of Elaida offing her somehow?      

A couple of things where Moiraine's inability to lie was forgotten, IMHO - in the previous episode she said that they couldn't know for certain what would happen to the non-Dragons, but in this one she states plainly that the others would die. But there was nothing that would have led her to change her opinion about this - rather, Min's visions of the girls suggest the opposite, that they might have a future. She also shouldn't have been able to tell Lan "it is nothing", when it clearly isn't. Oh, well.

[Derfel Cadarn]

“Couldnt know for certain” maybe means she doesnt know how exactly they will die - enough wriggle room?

[SpaceChampion]

5 hours ago, Darryk said:

Not sure why they added a Perrin-Rand-Egwene love triangle, just as I'm still not sure why the Perrin-kills-his-wife storyline.

 

[Ran]

Yeah, they don't understand because Nynaeve literally describes a love triangle when she says she's angry about Perrin and Rand "always fighting" over Egwene as if she were a prize. 

Which makes zero sense, since immediately after Rand had no clue about the fact that he was in any kind of competition. Which does indeed mean it was entirely a matter of Perrin seemingly having some sort of overt crush that neither Egwene nor Rand were aware of, but Laila and Nynaeve did, except Nynaeve seemed to have believed Rand knew for no obvious reason.

It was some really lame-brained writing, whatever you want to term the scenario.

 

[Werthead]

Had an update from Amazon confirming that Wheel of Time is actually Amazon Prime Video's biggest premiere in its history (this was unofficial, but then an exec blabbed on Instagram, so whatever). Nothing else, not The Boys or its opening of The Expanse or The Grand Tour or The Marvellous Mrs. Maisel, came close.

That's only premieres, so based on the numbers it looks like WoT did comparable or larger numbers than the second season of The Boys. That's a huge achievement.

[Jace, Extat]

What they've done to Egwene is practically criminal.

Book Egwene: Bright eyed young woman who eschews the expectations of her society and jumps at the chance to go to wizard college, even though the way is super dangerous. Spends the first two books realizing she's not in love with the guy she, he, and everyone they ever knew always assumed would get married and have a family with. 

Show Egwene: Seems determined not to marry Rand from the outset so that she can have a position of authority within her society (means choosing not to get with him later is a choice that was already made at the begining), and eschewing said husband is no longer an action against her society but something to make Rand feel embittered (I guess, they didn't really do anything with this but it's what they set up). Spends her ENTIRE season coddling a man who fridged his wife rather than exploring her own wants and desires (wizard school), making Perrin the focus character in all their scenes together because HE KILLED HIS WIFE and that overshadows something as rote as a young woman looking to make her own way in the world --

"The axe... I was swinging the axe, Egwene. And I... I- uh..."

"So, like totally sorry. With your trauma and all, but I'm supes excited to be out of that crappy village and even though this is all scary and dangerous I am taking every opportunity to explore new cultures and places and I can't wait to become a wizard because..."

"ME WIFE! ME BLOODY WIIIIIIFE!!!"

--

Even Egwene's trauma scene (the brush rape) turns into a Perrin sequence! That scene is supposed to be about evil white men hurting young women with impunity for the crime of maybe being powerful and you made it about Perrin because he's the one actively being tortured and then admitting to the thing that has been devouring his spirit for the entire season. Egwene's biggest character moment in the season doesn't even let her have the biggest story in the room!

Then she disappears from the story for a while like all the other main characters and when she comes back all she does is cry and vacillate wildly between blaming a friend for being weak (I mean, he was) vs being mantalked into saying she always believed in him (she didn't, only says that because Rand's positive position about Mat has to be affirmed because that's what flighty women characters do, affirm the positive dispositions of men. Nice writing, that). Oh, and the other thing she does is get fought over by two men while not speaking and then leaves the room without speaking. 

I'd accuse them of having had it in for her, but the rest of the writing is so garbo that I'm sure they thought they were doing a good job. 

[Arakasi]

Or you know she made that decision at the start because wisdoms can’t get married and wanted to let Rand know now since it was fairer to him then letting it keep going. And on the matter of Perrin she saw a friend of hers was in need and was obviously going through something difficult and cared for him. She had no idea until the end that he had killed his wife.

That is one thing I’m glad the shows are getting away from the books. That all the women are manipulative. That’s a real life trope that men in power are commanding or a leader while women in charge are manipulative and bitchy. But the books are filled with women trying to control their men and the men succeeding by ignoring that. Whether that is Egwene, Faile, Tylin, Tuon, Nynaeve, Lanfear, Grandael, Berelain, Allana, Myrelle and the Aes Sedai and female channellers in general. It’s even built into the magic system that the men seize the power and do what they want with it while the women “surrender” to saidar and then manipulate it to make it do what they want. Min was a refreshing change there because she was about the only one who didn’t do that. She loved Rand and accepted him for what he was.

 

[Gertrude]

I may be disappointed with the way some things are going right now, but I disagree with takes like Babblebauble. I do think there has been some very good choices throughout the series, I've just come to a point where I realize I am not being wowed by any of these choices in the bigger picture and everything is just OK. It's disappointing to be here right now and not how I wanted to be feeling about this show.

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

Is this true, or just trendy to say?

A Love Triangle is two people looking for romantic feelings from a third. yes? Sure, there can be different ways that expresses itself, but that's the essential part, right? How is this not a love triangle?

[Arakasi]

One thing that I think is fair to ask is when people compare characterization of the show to the books are they comparing to WoT as a whole or EotW? From what I’ve read here it seems a lot do the first. Remember that EotW was 90% done from Rands pov and that Perrin and Mat didn’t become who we perceive them to be now until third book or later, especially Mat. So while I think Rand isn’t as developed as he was in EotW I think all the other characters have had quite a bit more development than we ever saw in EotW.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Is this true, or just trendy to say?

A Love Triangle is two people looking for romantic feelings from a third. yes? Sure, there can be different ways that expresses itself, but that's the essential part, right? How is this not a love triangle?

The thing that pissed me off is that this stuff came from nowhere. Egwene making choices to move away from Rand makes sense for the character, it's what happens in the book. But that's not what the show has done, not that I've seen. She's pretty much stayed static as his girlfriend (despite saying she was gonna break up with him to be Wisdom), then out of nowhere this guy she's been dragging along in a PTSD stupor suddenly has to puff his chest out and make a stand for her favor. And the dynamic doesn't make sense. Rand and Egwene are presented to us as a couple, but Egwene says she wants to pursue her career. 

However when we finally, after hours of show, get the main characters back together they are introducing a competition for the love of a woman who was supposed to have already chosen a different path. It doesn't make sense! Perrin was married, everybody knew Rand and Egwene were together. Where did these confrontational/competitive dynamics come from!?! And why? She's supposed to not be into either of them at this point, judging from what the show told me back in episode one.

So instead of a character whose decisions and motivations come from within ('I want to go to wizard college, for me') all of her scenes revolve around either supporting the boys or (suddenly) being fought over by them. She has no agency within this story and I don't understand why these are the character changes that were made.

 

[Werthead]

45 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Is this true, or just trendy to say?

A Love Triangle is two people looking for romantic feelings from a third. yes? Sure, there can be different ways that expresses itself, but that's the essential part, right? How is this not a love triangle?

A love triangle is where all three people are kind of into the other person. So for this to count, Egwene would have to reciprocate both Perrin and Rand's interest and be torn on who to choose between. Since Egwene and Rand are together (on-offish) in Season 1, Egwene's not into Perrin and Perrin seems to not really be in love with Egwene, it doesn't really meet the criteria.

Sawyer-Kate-Jack in Lost is a better example of a love triangle (or Apollo-Starbuck-Anders or Dualla-Apollo-Starbuck in BSG).

[Gertrude]

35 minutes ago, Werthead said:

A love triangle is where all three people are kind of into the other person.

Is that actually true though, or just the "classic" triangle. I actually looked this up because I was thinking, oh maybe there is a "correct" definition of a love triangle that I'm just missing. 

The wiki at least thinks Romeo/Juliet/Paris is a love triangle. (which may not be making the point I think it is - I am confusing a lot of portrayals of R&J and not the actual words.)

Other sources had a ton of different ways it could play out from the Sawyer-Kate-Jack variety to unrequited love, to a circle of interest and a handful of others. Mainly I was just getting tired of that tweet/meme/sentiment because it was quippy without adding anything to the conversation (no offense to the person who posted it here, it's just that I've seen it a lot and there are a lot of people telling other people they are wrong for liking/feeling/not-feeling some way about something.)

 

@Babblebauble I'm not sure why you quoted me because I didn't really engage on that part of the conversation for or against. 

[Gertrude]

sorry, double post.

[Ran]

Complete tangent but ... can someone explain what this double post thing is about? It's clear that since we upgraded, it's happening to people, but I have not ever experienced it and so I can't diagnose it.

Is it that it seems your post is slow to go up and so you click submit reply again and that leads to a double post? 

Re: love triangle, according to TV tropes, WoT seems to have indulged in the "Love Triangle" Subtrope of Imaginary Love Triangle.

 

[Darryk]

Well I always thought I love triangle was just a romantic subplot involving three characters. Didn't realize there was some kind of special criteria that had to be met beyond that.

[Maia]

3 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

Book Egwene: Bright eyed young woman who eschews the expectations of her society and jumps at the chance to go to wizard college, even though the way is super dangerous.

You forget that  in the books Egwene was  a Wisdom's apprentice and was already seriously thinking about leaving the Two Rivers. And even in the books it was explicitely mentioned that Wisdoms seldom marry. Not never like in the show, but close. As to the wizard's college, that only happened in TGH and before that the girls were just tagging along. Presumably because Moiraine preferred to risk their lives needlessly to taking a chance on them blabbing to the wrong people. In the show, the dynamics are changed due to them also being potential Dragons and then because Moiraine told them straight out that most of them were going to die. So career choices weren't much of a consideration in the show and emotions were heightened, hence Egwene and Rand coming briefly back together one last time. Ditto Lan's and Nyn's romance  progressing as it did. Once it becomes clear that they have a future, all the logical cracks and distances will presumably develop.  

 

3 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

 

Even Egwene's trauma scene (the brush rape) turns into a Perrin sequence! That scene is supposed to be about evil white men hurting young women with impunity for the crime of maybe being powerful and you made it about Perrin because he's the one actively being tortured and then admitting to the thing that has been devouring his spirit for the entire season. Egwene's biggest character moment in the season doesn't even let her have the biggest story in the room.

Hard disagree. But in any case, it was more than what she had in  TEoTW book.