Book of Boba Fett: The Upstaging of Din Djarin [SPOILERS]

[Toth]

Mmh, after reading this thread I went and look up the Luke and Ahsoka scenes just for the sake of the fanservice. I guess it was generally good, but... anyone else really bothered by both Luke and Ahsoka sticking super close to old Jedi order anti-attachment dogma? I think we already had that discussion back when Ahsoka first appeared in The Mandalorian and was weirdly orthodox for someone who turned her back at the order and now even Luke, of all people, jumps on the "can't be a Jedi and stay in contact with Mando" bandwagon. Is the give implication truly that they both learned absolutely nil about the failings of the old order?

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Toth said:

Mmh, after reading this thread I went and look up the Luke and Ahsoka scenes just for the sake of the fanservice. I guess it was generally good, but... anyone else really bothered by both Luke and Ahsoka sticking super close to old Jedi order anti-attachment dogma? I think we already had that discussion back when Ahsoka first appeared in The Mandalorian and was weirdly orthodox for someone who turned her back at the order and now even Luke, of all people, jumps on the "can't be a Jedi and stay in contact with Mando" bandwagon. Is the give implication truly that they both learned absolutely nil about the failings of the old order?

Yeah, that seemed real weird to me too. Ahsoka, of all people, should be a bit less on the whole following the Jedi path thing. 

I like the idea of her checking out Luke and whatnot (in all senses of the checking out word) but here we have someone who was likely there when Grogu was getting taught and saw, firsthand, how fucked up the council and their system was. And she's just okay with Luke picking it up and moving on like that? 

Also, Luke mansplaining Yoda to Grogu when Yoda was likely Grogu's teacher at one point is pretty funny.

I would have really liked Ahsoka to start seeding the grievances of the old Jedi Order in Luke's mind and ruin some of his heroes. 

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I think I meant ‘ran’ but I can’t remember how it all shook out, they were allied or something? Some connection anyway. Still plenty of cool left in the paragraph.

Q'ira worked for Maul as she was part of Maul's syndicate, the Crimson Dawn. Maul did have loose control of all or some of the main syndicates at various points but we don't know how he lost that part and ended up stranded on the planet with the old Sith temple. With him gone it's not know how much influence Crimson Dawn has, but then again the Hutts seem to be in disarray, too.

[Toth]

1 minute ago, Kalibuster said:

Yeah, that seemed real weird to me too. Ahsoka, of all people, should be a bit less on the whole following the Jedi path thing. 

I like the idea of her checking out Luke and whatnot (in all senses of the checking out word) but here we have someone who was likely there when Grogu was getting taught and saw, firsthand, how fucked up the council and their system was. And she's just okay with Luke picking it up and moving on like that? 

Indeed. Ahsoka should have the perspective that the old order sucked and Luke himself also had made the experience that trusting his instincts and protect his friends/trust in his dad to be redeemable paid off in the end, against the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan.

I guess it's doubly weird for me as well because I just somewhat recently read Survivor's Quest in which one of the things happening in there is Luke learning of the old order's no-attachment stance, pondering it and in the end deciding that he's fine doing away with that.

Heck, that scene of Mando watching Grogu from afar gave me eerie flashbacks to Lorana Jinzler's parents stalking her as she did her Jedi training. Well, I guess Luke at the very least gives Grogu a choice, but it still feels unnecessarily cruel (and pointless if you consider that untrained force powers can be quite dangerous).

11 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Also, Luke mansplaining Yoda to Grogu when Yoda was likely Grogu's teacher at one point is pretty funny.

Mmh, granted, the episode did frame this entire exchange as Luke trying to pry open Grogu's repressed memories. I guess it would have been easier to get across if he had an honest exchange with Ahsoka about the old order afterwards.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, thinking on it that's even weirder. The whole OT is a repudiation of the Jedi idea of attachment being horrible. Luke uses his attachment to save the entire galaxy. There's no reason that Grogu needs to give up Mando forever or even for a little while, any more than there's a reason Luke would have to give up his love of Leia (not that way eeww) or Han or anyone else. 

And then he's just 'sorry, Grogu, but fuck your feelings'? Weird.

 

[Rhom]

2 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Yeah, thinking on it that's even weirder. The whole OT is a repudiation of the Jedi idea of attachment being horrible. Luke uses his attachment to save the entire galaxy. There's no reason that Grogu needs to give up Mando forever or even for a little while, any more than there's a reason Luke would have to give up his love of Leia (not that way eeww) or Han or anyone else. 

And then he's just 'sorry, Grogu, but fuck your feelings'? Weird.

 

Lets be honest here though... the zero attachments thing was a colossal retcon used as an excuse to drop the epic line about Fear->Hate->Suffering and give an excuse for Anakin to go bad.

[mormont]

19 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Also, Luke mansplaining Yoda to Grogu when Yoda was likely Grogu's teacher at one point is pretty funny.

Unless I'm missing something, as yet we have no indication that Grogu and Yoda have ever met, whereas Luke clearly did know Yoda.

As for the attachment stuff: I'm guessing that how this goes is, Grogu chooses to go with Mando. Luke is touched by this and this is the only reason he agrees to teach his nephew in the first place, as he realises attachments can coexist with being Jedi. But then everything goes wrong with Ben and he concludes it was because he was wrong.

Bear in mind also that even offering Grogu the choice is something of a step forward for the Jedi...

[sologdin]

should be a bit less on the whole following the Jedi path thing. 

on detachment, as professor foucault writes in the confessions of the flesh--

Quote

Chastity is the condition  of access for a comprehension of the Scripture, an opening to a spiritual meaning, a righteous direction of the mind, a steadiness of the soul's gaze in the contemplation of God.  [...] So one must think of a twofold process of an illumination of the  mysteries of the heart which is both the condition and the effect of the knowledge of God, and a progression toward spiritual science that cannot be accomplished without the self-knowledge that it makes possible. And at the pivot point of these two process, there is chastity.

--substitute in 'the force' for 'god' and we're at the same place. jedi just needed to get laid and the civil war could've been avoided.

anyway, little bugger steals yoda's laser sword and the mithril, watch.  he and din can be mandojedis together.

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Also, Luke mansplaining Yoda to Grogu when Yoda was likely Grogu's teacher at one point is pretty funny.

To be fair they did include Luke saying it wasn't like training Grogu but "like he's remembering."  Seemed to me they were suggesting he blocked out most (or virtually all) of his time at the Jedi temple.

But yeah, definitely agree with you and Toth that both Ahsoka and Luke's attitudes don't make much sense based on their past.  With Luke it's like, dude, do you need to rewatch the end of Empire?  OR, maybe his "test" is a trick, and when Grogu chooses the mithril shirt he'll be like, "ok, cool, go hang out with Mando then I'll train you after you learn who your real father is or something."

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Lets be honest here though... the zero attachments thing was a colossal retcon used as an excuse to drop the epic line about Fear->Hate->Suffering and give an excuse for Anakin to go bad.

Nah. It was a big deal from Obi-wan and especially from Yoda in TESB. They told him that he was fucked for wanting to save his friends and fucked for thinking he could save Vader. And he proved that they were wrong.

Later we see both the cost of connections and the cost of denying them in Anakin, but that was always the Jedi way. 

[DaveSumm]

It sounded more like Ahsoka wanted to make sure Grogu had a fair shot at training as a Jedi, and seeing Din again wouldn’t help with that right now. But kinda agree on Luke, but also agree that the entire Skywalker saga isn’t quite sure what point it’s trying to make about that. Anakin and Obi-Wan being bessie mates seems like an attachment to me. 

There were elements of Luke being a bit unsure of himself as a teacher, maybe that’s going somewhere and he’ll regret being so absolutist. Then we’ll get a Filoni series post-sequels where Rey finally gets it. 

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Nah. It was a big deal from Obi-wan and especially from Yoda in TESB. They told him that he was fucked for wanting to save his friends and fucked for thinking he could save Vader. And he proved that they were wrong.

According to Rian Johnson they might have been right.

ETA: but returning to Empire, does Luke really accomplish anything by going to Cloud City?  He doesn’t rescue Han, and Han ends up exactly where he would have ended up had Luke not rushed off to save him.  Instead Luke loses his hand and Leia, Chewy and Lando escape without his help and end up rescuing him.

[DaveSumm]

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

Unless I'm missing something, as yet we have no indication that Grogu and Yoda have ever met, whereas Luke clearly did know Yoda.

I guess there was an awful lot of Jedi around pre-Order 66, but you would think someone who we’ve seen train children would’ve met another Force user of his race? But we don’t have a lot of data points here. If Grogu was on Coruscant during Order 66, or anytime before, I’d say it’s highly probable they met.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to Rian Johnson they might have been right.

ETA: but returning to Empire, does Luke really accomplish anything by going to Cloud City?  He doesn’t rescue Han, and Han ends up exactly where he would have ended up had Luke not rushed off to save him.  Instead Luke loses his hand and Leia, Chewy and Lando escape without his help and end up rescuing him.

He gains the knowledge that Vader is is father, that his father loves him, and that there may be good in him.

And he seeds the doubt in Vader that ends up being the emperors downfall and Vaders betrayal. 

[Toth]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

ETA: but returning to Empire, does Luke really accomplish anything by going to Cloud City?  He doesn’t rescue Han, and Han ends up exactly where he would have ended up had Luke not rushed off to save him.  Instead Luke loses his hand and Leia, Chewy and Lando escape without his help and end up rescuing him.

He fails abysmally because he's not trained yet, but it was still the right thing to do from his POV! Also I guess you have to wonder whether Lando had been able to free the others if Luke hadn't sprung the trap and gotten all of Vader's attention.

[Soylent Brown]

Awfully nice of Din to have the little smock made for Rogu, but given that he's about 80% head, he's not quite out of the woods yet. He needs to ask Santa for a Mandalorian hat.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Toth said:

Also I guess you have to wonder whether Lando had been able to free the others if Luke hadn't sprung the trap and gotten all of Vader's attention.

Yeah the entire reason Vader is there and holding them all prisoner is to lure Luke there.  Who knows what happens if Luke doesn't show up.

[Kalbear]

31 minutes ago, mormont said:

Unless I'm missing something, as yet we have no indication that Grogu and Yoda have ever met, whereas Luke clearly did know Yoda.

 

11 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I guess there was an awful lot of Jedi around pre-Order 66, but you would think someone who we’ve seen train children would’ve met another Force user of his race? But we don’t have a lot of data points here. If Grogu was on Coruscant during Order 66, or anytime before, I’d say it’s highly probable they met.

Yoda is seen evaluating Anakin directly, he's seen working with Padawans repeatedly in the PT and in Clone Wars. The idea that Yoda wouldn't have some knowledge if not actual teaching of Grogu is a bit goofy. It isn't like there were a crazy amount of younglings at any time. 

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Werthead said:

Luke CGIwalker was surprisingly good in this episode, a marked improvement over his last appearance and amazingly far beyond Rogue One's Leia/Tarkin (I'm expecting them to redo those shots at some point). I'm not sure he could carry a whole series, but give the tech another five years or so and he probably could.

Yeah, it definitely was a lot better than last year, which makes you wonder why.  Still, though, they were clearly cutting away virtually every time he talked to the point of it being distracting.  It would definitely be even more noticeable if the character was carrying the show and almost every time he talked they cut to a shot behind him, or his feet, or a reaction shot of who he's talking to.

[Kalbear]

Just now, DMC said:

Yeah, it definitely was a lot better than last year, which makes you wonder why. 

IIRC they did it to maintain secrecy as much as possible, and that resulted in a cheapo system. Some fan took it and improved it and they hired him to work on it later.