Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

I think what separates GRRM from many other writers, is just how well he writes characters who are dead. Rhaegar is dead before you even start reading the first page of the series, yet GRRM fleshed him out in such away, from so many different POV's, that he basically feels like a supporting character in the series. Heck, we learn quite a lot about Ned after he died, he slowly is becoming the same way as well.

Rhaegar is a really confusing character, IMO. I don't understand why he isn't considered a crazy weirdo by Westerosi society, or at least by people who knew him. A guy talking about prophetic saviors (and even considering himself to be one), the need to make prophetic babies, three heads of the dragon, and all that stuff should have raised questions. Especially at a time when people believed that magic no longer exists.

[Ran]

Most people who knew him knew nothing about any of that. He shared his thoughts on prophecy only with Maester Aemon, far away on the Wall, so far as we know. He mentioned the three heads of the dragon once, that we know of, to Elia. 

Mostly those who knew him knew him the way Barristan did: his prowess, his learning, his melancholy. Barristan doesn't think anything of a magical nature was going on with whatever happened with Lyanna.

[butterweedstrover]

51 minutes ago, sifth said:

I think what separates GRRM from many other writers, is just how well he writes characters who are dead. Rhaegar is dead before you even start reading the first page of the series, yet GRRM fleshed him out in such away, from so many diffrent POV's, that he basically feels like a supporting character in the series. Heck, we learn quite a lot about Ned after he died, he slowly is becoming the same way as well.

Have you read Rebecca? 

Anyways, I don't like this style of writing (which I call the 'Dracula' method) because the mystique of the ancillary character gives them an overwhelming style which seems cheap and artifical. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Okay, but Jon was still a pretty poor Lord Commander. His men tried appealing to him many times, and he just blew them off. He took their loyalty for granted.

And I’m sorry, but the fact that Jon wants to “take the war” to the family that just so happens to have supplanted his own is a little too convenient for me, just like how Stannis’ duty just so happens to make him king.

[sifth]

51 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Have you read Rebecca? 

Anyways, I don't like this style of writing (which I call the 'Dracula' method) because the mystique of the ancillary character gives them an overwhelming style which seems cheap and artifical. 

No, but I saw the film Alfred Hitchcock made, based on the book with some friends over the summer. We all loved it.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Most people who knew him knew nothing about any of that. He shared his thoughts on prophecy only with Maester Aemon, far away on the Wall, so far as we know. He mentioned the three heads of the dragon once, that we know of, to Elia. 

Barristan also knew, as did the knights who trained in the yard when he asked for weapons and armor. And from there gossip would surely spread. Elia also might have told her family in Dorne, and so on.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Barristan also knew, as did the knights who trained in the yard when he asked for weapons and armor. And from there gossip would surely spread. Elia also might have told her family in Dorne, and so on.

Barristan knew there was something mysterious and sad about Rhaegar, but nothing about his belief that he was destined to save the world. Even if Barristan did know about this, I think he and most of the people in Kings Landing would rather have him in charge than his insane father.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Going back to the idea of a sidequel, I think you could probably make a separate book about Dany (and maybe a few chapters from Barristan), Arya, and Davos, since they’re all going to be geographically isolated from the rest of the cast in TWOW. Maybe Dany’s final chapter ends with her meeting Tyrion, whose story up until then will be covered in TWOW. It gives them more time to catch up to everyone else, and leaves more room for other POVs in TWOW. Anyway, just a thought.

[Groo]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Okay, but Jon was still a pretty poor Lord Commander. His men tried appealing to him many times, and he just blew them off. He took their loyalty for granted.

I think we have to make some allowances for him being a new commander, however. He didn't have time to establish or prove himself to everyone before he was confronted with the whole wilding situation. He wasn't even the one who let them through the wall. What would the Watch's reaction have been if Mormont was still alive and made the same decisions about the wildings that Jon did? I'm excluding Jon's decision about marching on the Boltons, obviously, because Mormont most likely wouldn't have done that.

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Barristan also knew, as did the knights who trained in the yard when he asked for weapons and armor. And from there gossip would surely spread. Elia also might have told her family in Dorne, and so on.

Quote

 Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior."'
 

They really know nothing. Just he read something and he decided he should be a warrior. Could have been a religious text lauding the Warrior, could have been a romance about of the Age of Heroes, whatever. He was a bookish child, no surprise a book made him decide to finally care about fighting.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

Barristan knew there was something mysterious and sad about Rhaegar, but nothing about his belief that he was destined to save the world.

Barristan knew that whatever Rhaegar read in those scrolls made him think that he must be a warrior. That alone should set off alarm bells. Although to be fair, Barristan also knew that Jaehaerys forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry because of a prophecy by a woods witch, so maybe Targaryens being interested in prophecy wasn't uncommon and didn't scare people at court.

I don't know. Belief in magic seems to be all over the place.

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Barristan knew that whatever Rhaegar read in those scrolls made him think that he must be a warrior. That alone should set off alarm bells. Although to be fair, Barristan also knew that Jaehaerys forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry because of a prophecy by a woods witch, so maybe Targaryens being interested in prophecy wasn't uncommon and didn't scare people at court.

well , as you mention yourself , Barry doesn't get alarmed about princes' natures easily . but did he really know anything?

Quote

As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

the kid who's not interested in swords and spends all his time amongst his scrolls comes up one day, says: "It seems I must be a warrior" ... naturally , Barry and everyone else guess that he has read something in his scrolls. because he doesn't say he likes to be a warrior , he doesn't say my royal sire has commanded , he doesn't have any friends who influence him into thinking he must be a warrior. and it's not really all that odd. the religious could assume he's read about Warrior in seven pointed star , historians could assume he's read about why Jaeherys I thought a king should be a warrior , Barry and the likes of him could assume he's read about gallant honorable knights and so on. 

[James Arryn]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

The worlds of Guy Gavriel Kaye and Robin Hobb are as interesting to me as Martin's.

GGK is my favourite fantasy writer. Just beautiful, though aside from Fionavar it’s mostly pseudo-history lightly tinged by magic. Lions of Al-Rassan is my personal favourite. He’s a lovely person in RL too. 

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Rhaegar is a really confusing character, IMO. I don't understand why he isn't considered a crazy weirdo by Westerosi society, or at least by people who knew him. A guy talking about prophetic saviors (and even considering himself to be one), the need to make prophetic babies, three heads of the dragon, and all that stuff should have raised questions. Especially at a time when people believed that magic no longer exists.

1) His family is alive because of prophecy. And have followed it several times since; his parents were married because of prophecy, ffs. 

2) Possibly the smartest/most learned man we meet in the text also thought Rhaegar was AA, and it was young Rhaegar, not ancient Aemon, who changed his mind on that first. 

3) He very probably saved the universe by his pursuits. 

I find a lot of criticisms of Rhaegar are highly selective and pretend that he didn’t inhabit the realms of a fantasy novel. Good luck combating the Others with sound strategic deployment and good old fashioned guts. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

24 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Barry and the likes of him could assume he's read about gallant honorable knights and so on. 

That's a possibility. I've actually never considered that myself.

 

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I find a lot of criticisms of Rhaegar are highly selective and pretend that he didn’t inhabit the realms of a fantasy novel. 

Given that ASOIAF's biggest selling point is how realistic the characters are (and they really are, for the most part), I feel that the extra scrutiny is justified.

And it's not just the human characters. GRRM has talked about how he made sure that his dragons are more serpentlike than other fantasy dragons, because most other dragons wouldn't be able to fly if they existed in reality.

I mean, I didn't make up the rules here.

[James Arryn]

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's a possibility. I've actually never considered that myself.

 

Given that ASOIAF's biggest selling point is how realistic the characters are (and they really are, for the most part), I feel that the extra scrutiny is justified.

And it's not just the human characters. GRRM has talked about how he made sure that his dragons are more serpentlike than other fantasy dragons, because most other dragons wouldn't be able to fly if they existed in reality.

I mean, I didn't make up the rules here.

But there’s lots of magic, and George breaks his own rules all the time. His biggest criticism of Tolkien is, get this, Gandalf should have stayed dead. This in spite of Gandalf being explicitly ~ immortal and George having more fake/pseudo/temporary deaths than Tolkien ever dreamed of. 
 

GRRM is definitely fantasy, excepting where he borders more on horror. His tone is gritty, and he loves subverting tropes, but that doesn’t make shadowbaby assassins and fire-breathing dragons and accurate prophecy and pretty much everything surrounding the ruins of Valyria any less magical. Dany brought her dragons to life using magic just as Merlin had Excalibur wrought, and both had bloody costs. 

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

No, but I saw the film Alfred Hitchcock made, based on the book with some friends over the summer. We all loved it.

Yeah, the Hitchcock film was great. 

However, though the book is a slight drag, it let the mystery wallow and in that I appreciated the less efficient nature of the latter.  

The Netflix adaption sadly butchered the final third for no reason in particular. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

 

And it's not just the human characters. GRRM has talked about how he made sure that his dragons are more serpentlike than other fantasy dragons, because most other dragons wouldn't be able to fly if they existed in reality.

 

Is that because reptiles are cold-blooded? 

[Hugorfonics]

22 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Is that because reptiles are cold-blooded? 

That's why dragons won't pass the wall, too cold

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On a similar note, I just can't buy the practical aspect of Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. There is no way that a 14-year-old girl is able to convincingly portray a male adult knight, all the way down to the booming male voice (!), without anyone seeing through the charade.

But then again, Arya is an 11-year-old assassin, so... yeah.