UK Politics- P0rn, Horn and Local Elections

[Pebble thats Stubby]

54 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

I hope the Lib Dem leaflet had a dodgy bar chart on it

If the stats are correct to the vote share then the bar chart did not look that dodgy.  I have not fact checked the stats.

 

The bar chart however does look very similar to the previous years local election leaflet despite a much different percentage of the vote share.  - that one was very not to scale.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:18 AM, mormont said:

Not on this, I expect. There's certainly an anti-abortion movement in this country and JRM is on record, I believe, as an anti-abortionist, but even among the current Tory party it's not a thing that's ever gained any momentum.

There are bigger threats around freedom and equality but this one isn't an active issue right now.

Right now certainly but it should be noted the rash of transphobia and terfism within the recent years was largely funded and propagated by American evangelicals who are outlawing abortion now. 
 

They’ve actually used England as a testing ground for what arguments they can use to score legal victories in destroying people they hate(the lgbt, people who have abortions, women who’d have premarital sex etc) 

[kiko]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Right now certainly but it should be noted the rash of transphobia and terfism within the recent years was largely funded and propagated by American evangelicals who are outlawing abortion now. 
 

They’ve actually used England as a testing ground for what arguments they can use to score legal victories in destroying people they hate(the lgbt, people who have abortions, women who’d have premarital sex etc) 

That's interesting. Would they really finance women's rights groups that are so massive into defending what they see as their rights that they even make the unpopular decision to throw the trans people under the bus? That’s counter intuitive.

[The Anti-Targ]

46 minutes ago, kiko said:

That's interesting. Would they really finance women's rights groups that are so massive into defending what they see as their rights that they even make the unpopular decision to throw the trans people under the bus? That’s counter intuitive.

I imagine the right may be quite keen to drive the wedge even deeper in feminism between TERFs and trans-allies. Nothing beats divide and conquer. Though the right typically can just sit back and watch the left destroy its political opportunities through factional division.

[Heartofice]

The UK really isn’t like the US in many regards, the old saying we are just a few years behind doesn’t always apply. 
 

For a start we simply don’t have any sort of strong religious faction here, most people in the UK are not religious and evangelicals are not really a thing.

Abortion, like gay marriage is something that I think is very unlikely to ever be under any threat in this country.

[BigFatCoward]

33 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The UK really isn’t like the US in many regards, the old saying we are just a few years behind doesn’t always apply. 
 

For a start we simply don’t have any sort of strong religious faction here, most people in the UK are not religious and evangelicals are not really a thing.

Abortion, like gay marriage is something that I think is very unlikely to ever be under any threat in this country.

This, I literally know one person who goes to church (or at least admits it). 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, kiko said:

That's interesting. Would they really finance women's rights groups that are so massive into defending what they see as their rights that they even make the unpopular decision to throw the trans people under the bus? That’s counter intuitive.

They do. There's research showing the links.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

This, I literally know one person who goes to church (or at least admits it). 

Most churches are closing down and either being turned into Tescos or flats. I do know a few people who go to church occasionally ( Christmas etc) but not because they believe in Jesus or anything. Anyone still going to church regularly now from what I’ve seen are either in their 80s or are from immigrant communities from Africa or Asia. 

[mormont]

It's true that only between 5 and 15% of people in the UK attend church regularly, but we're discussing religious influence on politics here, and that's not about whether you go to church so much as it is about a loose cultural affiliation with what you believe to be the values of that church. About twice as many people loosely identify with their religion in that way as actually attend worship.

That said, as noted, restricting abortion isn't an issue even among the religious in the UK.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I voted.  I was told I was the 3rd person to vote in my polling station today.

 

I also took part in an exit poll.  This is the first time I've ever seen an exit poll.  The very early exit poll results are 100% Lib Dem  but that might be because the other 2 people did not take part in the exit poll.

[Which Tyler]

Well, I don't intend to vote today.

That might have something to do with not having an election to vote it

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

It's true that only between 5 and 15% of people in the UK attend church regularly, but we're discussing religious influence on politics here, and that's not about whether you go to church so much as it is about a loose cultural affiliation with what you believe to be the values of that church. About twice as many people loosely identify with their religion in that way as actually attend worship.

That said, as noted, restricting abortion isn't an issue even among the religious in the UK.

 

 I don’t think the lack of religiosity is necessarily as strong as an impediment as you perceive 

 A Lot of the arguments geared towards restricting gender affirmation therapy(least to minors), hormones, surgery, to trans people can easily transfer to justify an anti-abortion stance or an erodement of protections based on sexual orientation.

Hence why the religious right have stated quite bluntly they’ll do so in their legal appeals within America and the rest of the developed world.

I have to give it to them(the religious right); they’re exceptionally good at repackaging their old bigotry to suite the audience they’re trying to court.

Oh also for many on the right despite they’re lack of religioussity they’ll immediately jump at having another culture war to prove their anti-wokeness. Who needs a competent government when you can get something better: the ability to own the left.

To be clear I don’t think it will be instantaneous but a few years down the line.

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

It's true that only between 5 and 15% of people in the UK attend church regularly, but we're discussing religious influence on politics here, and that's not about whether you go to church so much as it is about a loose cultural affiliation with what you believe to be the values of that church. About twice as many people loosely identify with their religion in that way as actually attend worship.

That said, as noted, restricting abortion isn't an issue even among the religious in the UK.

A very high % of Democrats identify as religious as well. The anti abortion stance of most Americans isn't about religion, its about bat shit religion, and we don't have anywhere near as many of those. 

[mormont]

37 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I don’t think the lack of religiosity is necessarily as strong as an impediment as you perceive 

 A Lot of the arguments geared towards restricting gender affirmation therapy(least to minors), hormones, surgery, to trans people can easily transfer to justify an anti-abortion stance or an erodement of protections based on sexual orientation.

We were discussing the religious argument but it's true there can be non-religious, cultural arguments used to promote abortion bans too, in the same way as they're used against trans people. Protect the kids, this thing is icky and makes me feel uncomfortable, and of course the 'woke' argument. But while this has been a successful tactic in the UK re: trans issues, it has been tried and has failed with abortion. 

That may be partly because historically abortion votes in Parliament were a matter of conscience, no party line being taken, so it's never become a really partisan issue. 

[Heartofice]

The anti abortion movement has a history going back decades in the US, and has roots in the religious right. That simply doesn't exist here, never did. There simply isn't any public sentiment for it and I don't see why that would ever change. The same thing with gay rights. There are just a number of ways in which the UK is very different to the US, some people don't tend to understand that looking at things through a US led lens. 

30 minutes ago, mormont said:

We were discussing the religious argument but it's true there can be non-religious, cultural arguments used to promote abortion bans too, in the same way as they're used against trans people. Protect the kids, this thing is icky and makes me feel uncomfortable, and of course the 'woke' argument. But while this has been a successful tactic in the UK re: trans issues, it has been tried and has failed with abortion. 

There is a particular tactic to deflect the arguments on certain issues by comparing them to other struggles, which is a way of simply demonising one side or shutting down discussion. It isn't helpful but you can see why people do it. 

[Spockydog]

Have people forgotten that, today, abortion services in Northern Ireland are virtually non existent?

And, believe me, Scotland has its fair share of religious heid the baws.

Calls for buffer zones around abortion clinics in Scotland after protests

Quote

The Scottish government is facing growing calls to impose buffer zones around abortion clinics amid fears that potential changes to abortion rights in the US are emboldening anti-choice protesters.

A leaked US draft supreme court ruling overturning Roe v Wade has sharpened anxieties over delays in implementing the SNP’s 2021 manifesto pledge to support local authorities to establish protest-free zones around clinics.

With increasing levels of protests outside hospitals in Glasgow and Edinburgh, Scottish Labour called for an emergency summit to discuss the “urgent” introduction of buffer zones. Similar zones exist in a handful of local authorities in England following a landmark case in Ealing, west London.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

29 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

A very high % of Democrats identify as religious as well. The anti abortion stance of most Americans isn't about religion, its about bat shit religion, and we don't have anywhere near as many of those. 

It’s mainly about misogyny quite frankly.

so many people say they’re suddenly okay with Abortion if a person gets pregnant through rape.

Because then it’s not the woman’s “fault” for getting pregnant.

27 minutes ago, mormont said:

We were discussing the religious argument but it's true there can be non-religious, cultural arguments used to promote abortion bans too, in the same way as they're used against trans people. Protect the kids, this thing is icky and makes me feel uncomfortable, and of course the 'woke' argument. But while this has been a successful tactic in the UK re: trans issues, it has been tried and has failed with abortion. 

That may be partly because historically abortion votes in Parliament were a matter of conscience, no party line being taken, so it's never become a really partisan issue. 

I would concede such efforts have failed previously but.

Again I think if the initial premise of the arguments are accepted it does become a lot easier to justify an errodement of reproductive rights.

Should a 14 year old girl really be allowed to get a medical procedure without her parents consent?

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Have people forgotten that, today, abortion services in Northern Ireland are virtually non existent?

And, believe me, Scotland has its fair share of religious heid the baws.

Calls for buffer zones around abortion clinics in Scotland after protests

 

Many people have.

 

Some I wager are just trying to inspire complacency in their woke opposition by feigning ludicrousness  at their side trying the things(and succeeding) at the things they’re in the process of attempting.

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There simply isn't any public sentiment for it and I don't see why that would ever change.

Because of culture warriors campaigning to change such.

Trans women in sports was at best an interesting topic of discussion for decades until your side got hysterical about it for the last couple years, and shifted the public discourse on the topic. Also any topic involving trans people that already had years of it simply being seen as normal.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Because of culture warriors campaigning to change such.

Trans women in sports was at best an interesting topic of discussion for decades until your side got hysterical about it for the last couple years, and shifted the public discourse on the topic. Also any topic involving trans people that already had years of it simply being seen as normal.

Without going back over old ground.. the reason the trans debate has become a thing again is because of Self ID and the changes one side want to make the definitions of sex and gender. These are relatively new changes and it’s not surprising there is pushback on them, nor that trans issues were never really such a big issue before.