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58 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Alrighty, here I go

Well. I honestly haven't heard this before.  It could be age, it could be memory, it could be too much alcohol.

I get it.  Sansa is the prize and Tyrion is in the way.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

This doesn’t add up. Amongst other things, it never stopped Robert from hurting Cersei. 

For sure, that's a sensible argument.

Quote

She is so brave, Sansa thought, galloping after her . . . and yet, her doubts still gnawed at her. Ser Loras was a great knight, all agreed. But Joffrey had other Kingsguard, and gold cloaks and red cloaks besides, and when he was older he would command armies of his own. Aegon the Unworthy had never harmed Queen Naerys, perhaps for fear of their brother the Dragonknight . . . but when another of his Kingsguard fell in love with one of his mistresses, the king had taken both their heads.

But unlike you or Sansa, Tyrell is not sensible.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well. I honestly haven't heard this before.  It could be age, it could be memory, it could be too much alcohol.

I get it.  Sansa is the prize and Tyrion is in the way.

Lmao

Yea that's a good way of putting it. The distraction has to be live enough for Sansa to make an escape though, but we shouldn't discount Butterbumps singing

Eta

That's just my take on the pigeons, others have different. But we do believe it was the pie because the way  asos, pre kangaroo court, kept mentioning it and jamming it down our throat (lol I had to)

Edited by Hugorfonics
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Posted (edited)

There was a plot between Olenna and Littlefinger to poison Joffrey but Olenna did not follow through on it and carry out the poisoning. She didn't because Joffrey and Margaery were drinking from the same cup (chalice), an unforeseen circumstance that prevented Olenna from carrying out the plan. She loves Margaery and would not risk hurting her.

Margaery is no player and not part of the poisoning plot. To think otherwise is to fundamentally misread her character and to miss the point. The point is through Cersei's self projecting power obsessed paranoid eyes the good natured, dutiful daughter and family orientated pawn Margaery appears a threat. Margaery's natural and innocent attempts to become closer to her husband and do her duty as queen appear to Cersei as power grabs, because Cersei is Cersei, and they appear that way to us too because we're looking (reading) through Cersei's eyes. Margaery's "push back", comically minor as they are, are the frustrations of a new wife believing she's being stifled by an overbearing mother-in-law from from taking her place in her husband's life.

It's obvious in retrospect but undeniable at the point of Marge's and Cersei's conversation in ADWD. The supposed power player who took part in a murder conspiracy with her grandmother to kill the 12 year old king, Cersei's son, didn't suspect a thing until Cersei tripped over herself with her poor acting performance, and even then she thinks it's about the love of a mother for a son and is genuinely indignant towards Cersei. For Margaery to be this scheming murderous player would be wildly inconsistent with how the revelations and reactions in that passage play out.

When GRRM has Mace repeat ad nauseam that Margaery was drinking from the same chalice he's throwing in the readers faces the spanner in the works.

None of this is to say how Joffrey came to die, as GRRM literally said on the matter he may have more surprises to reveal.

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

This doesn’t add up. Amongst other things, it never stopped Robert from hurting Cersei. 

That's probably the purpose of this passage where GRRM goes out of his way to differentiate Jaime's and Loras's actions in rage.

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"I asked him why he kept her close, if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him. When I saw him all bloody, with her fled and the three of them unharmed . . . if she's innocent, then Robar and Emmon . . ." He could not seem to say the words.

Jaime had not stopped to consider that aspect of it. "I would have done the same, ser." The lie came easy, but Ser Loras seemed grateful for it.

 

Generally the Lannisters prize power over family, and Cersei will take a beating for the power that comes with being queen, not to say Jaime thinks like Cersei but she's going to hold him back. The Tyrells prize family first, just Mace (and frankly everyone except Olenna) doesn't understand the power he's coveting comes at the price of the safety of his family.

It's a big theme in ASOIAF the priority of family within family circles. House Tully words for example and the in text point that family comes first. The Tyrells are family first power second and exist to contrast with Lannisters who are, when push comes to shove, power first.

Edited by chrisdaw
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Problems with the poison in the pie/Tyrion the real target theory:

Sansa is seated next to Tyrion.  If Tyrion suddenly starts choking to death, all eyes will be on them, and a crowd will probably form.  Not to mention, Sansa will most likely be tending to her husband in distress.  She's that kind of person.  She's not going anywhere, and no reasonable plotter would assume she could.  Yet Dontos was clearly expecting to pick her up. 

There are probably easier ways to kill Tyrion.  He has no bodyguards and, IIRC, is often alone.  Stab him in some back corridor. 

The plot was in the works long before Tyrion was of interest to anyone.  Sansa got the poisoned hair net right after the Blackwater.  Somebody was going to get murdered, even back then.  

Sansa's conversation with Olenna and Margaery had multiple purposes.  They wanted to know more about Joffrey and not from secondhand sources.  Sansa's reaction to merely being asked can't have made them happy.  What she said certainly didn't.  Of course, they also gauged her interest in going to Highgarden. 

They were planning on removing her to Highgarden before anyone else would bother considering a marriage; she's still quite young. 

Loras isn't the solution to Joffrey.  He's part of the problem.  No way is he going to sit idly by while Joffrey turns his sister into a punching bag.  Sansa could see that, and I daresay Olenna and Margaery could too.  Even assuming Margaery is willingly to take on that role.

We have no indication the strangler is administered any way but dissolved in wine.  I certainly have seen no reason to believe it works as a solid. 

Sorry to derail things.  I couldn't help myself. :D   I'm also tired of seeing this theory constantly popping up. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, LynnS said:

is Quaithe one of the stars that are invoked in the prayers of the red religion?

Could be. She does watch over all the major players in the Game of Thrones, by using glass candle. So it is a possibility that the stars, mentioned in the prayer, are Quaithe/Shiera. Though she's not a single star, in AGOT&ADWD she had appeared as multiple stars, like here - "the stars smiled down on them" & "the stars whispered in a woman's voice".

8 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Larence Snow? 
Ramsey Snow? 
Snow of sept or Snow of the eyrie?

Why does she only want a glimpse?

She had meant specifically Jon Snow, to get it you have to read the whole scene, not just one sentence.

Quote

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

Unbelievers never listened until it was too late.

“What do you see, my lady?” the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, “Much and more,” but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

Edited by Megorova
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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Could be. She does watch over all the major players in the Game of Thrones, by using glass candle. So it is a possibility that the stars, mentioned in the prayer, are Quaithe/Shiera. Though she's not a single star, in AGOT&ADWD she had appeared as multiple stars, like here - "the stars smiled down on them" & "the stars whispered in a woman's voice".

Yes, I think there is more to this than just the stars smiling and whispering.  

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On 5/10/2022 at 11:55 AM, LynnS said:

?? So Oleanna/Littlefinger conspired to kill Joffrey while someone else had designs on Tyrion?  Poison in the pie would be indiscriminate. How do you reckon?

I'm not going to throw shade on you for having another opinion.  I've never heard the rationale for it before.

No, Olenna and Petyr conspired to kill Tyrion because he is the single biggest threat to their objectives. Joffrey is their biggest asset.

Poisoning the pie is not indiscriminate. It was Tyrion's pie, placed directly in front of Tyrion, meant for Tyrion and no one else, least of all the king. It's the wine that's indiscriminate, at least with Margaery. She would be expected to drink from it as well considering this is a formal occasion in the feast where toasts would be expected, as indeed, there was.

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20 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Citation?

Literally every relevant fact in the book is a citation. The strangler works in seconds, as we saw with Cressen. Joffrey drinks massively huge quantities of wine that is supposed to be so heavily poisoned it has turned deep purple, and he shows no reaction, nothing. Until he eats the pie, of course, then he starts mildly coughing in seconds with the pie still in his mouth, and then he washes it down with wine and starts choking in earnest within seconds, just like Cressen.

And then, of course: "It's, kof, the pie, kof -- noth, pie." So the victim himself is giving you the citation.

There's lots more, but this should be enough to draw the only rational, fact-based conclusion.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Olenna and Petyr conspired to kill Tyrion because he is the single biggest threat to their objectives. Joffrey is their biggest asset.

Poisoning the pie is not indiscriminate. It was Tyrion's pie, placed directly in front of Tyrion, meant for Tyrion and no one else, least of all the king. It's the wine that's indiscriminate, at least with Margaery. She would be expected to drink from it as well considering this is a formal occasion in the feast where toasts would be expected, as indeed, there was.

Well then.  There it is and I know nothing.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Poisoning the pie is not indiscriminate. It was Tyrion's pie, placed directly in front of Tyrion, meant for Tyrion and no one else, least of all the king. It's the wine that's indiscriminate, at least with Margaery. She would be expected to drink from it as well considering this is a formal occasion in the feast where toasts would be expected, as indeed, there was.

So did the poison come from Sansa's hairnet?  How did Joffrey end up with Tyrion's pie?

Because I sometimes suspect that the Ghost of High Heart is talking to Arya about the thing she did at Harrenhal with the Weasil Soup.  And not talking about Sansa at all.  GOHH seems to be confonting Arya:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

It sure sounds like the red wedding and then the purple wedding.

Quote

All morning she watched the Bloody Mummers strip the dead of their valuables and drag the corpses to the Flowstone Yard, where a pyre was laid to dispose of them. Shagwell the Fool hacked the heads off two dead knights and pranced about the castle swinging them by the hair and making them talk. "What did you die of?" one head asked. "Hot weasel soup," replied the second.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Fuck, we need bowls, cups, spoons—"

"No you don't." Rorge heaved the scalding hot broth across the table, full in their faces. Jaqen H'ghar did the same. Biter threw his kettles too, swinging them underarm so they spun across the dungeon, raining soup. One caught the captain in the temple as he tried to rise. He went down like a sack of sand and lay still. The rest were screaming in agony, praying, or trying to crawl off.

Arya pressed back against the wall as Rorge began to cut throats. Biter preferred to grab the men behind the head and under the chin and crack their necks with a single twist of his huge pale hands. Only one of the guards managed to get a blade out. Jaqen danced away from his slash, drew his own sword, drove the man back into a corner with a flurry of blows, and killed him with a thrust to the heart. The Lorathi brought the blade to Arya still red with heart's blood and wiped it clean on the front of her shift. "A girl should be bloody too. This is her work."

I think there is a chance that this is Arya and the one most likely to slay a savage giant as an assassin of thr FM.  Poison is also their stock in trade.  I can see Arya as medusa-like figure dripping venom.

So if there is more to say about pigeon pie that could be confirmed by the second part of GOHH dream.  Whether it's Sansa or Arya.  I'm not sure how else we'd find out about it. 

Edited by LynnS
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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So did the poison come from Sansa's hairnet?  How did Joffrey end up with Tyrion's pie?

Because I sometimes suspect that the Ghost of High Heart is talking to Arya about the thing she did at Harrenhal with the Weasil Soup. 

The poison had to come from Sansa. It's too much of a coincidence that Petyr mentions Thornes touching her hair, like she did. Although it is humorous to think her handmaiden actually did a bad job putting on Sansa's jewels because frankly Shae isnt qualified at all for her job.

I'd think somebody just put the rock in the pie, probably some nameless Tyrell henchmen, this business of how fast an amethyst can dissolve, with 0.8 birds per scoop in a 3'x2.6' slice of pie, just confuses me. (You don't know what I'm saying because your unfamiliar with this discussion, but trust me, they do lol) 

 

Word, relevant quotes, nice! I'm pretty sure it's all Sansa tho, but I can see where your coming from. 

If anything, I'd say the solved mystery of what giant Sansa slays is in asos when she broke Roberts doll because he's a little brat

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8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, I prefer: "It's, kof, the pie, kof -- noth, pie." It's right from the victim's mouth, as he lay dying.

Word that'd be more persuasive, but less funny. And I'll always take the latter first lol

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13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think there is a chance that this is Arya and the one most likely to slay a savage giant

Most likely, this is that "giant" and the castle build of snow ->

Quote

"Winterfell is the seat of House Stark," Sansa told her husband-to-be. "The great castle of the north."

"It's not so great." The boy knelt before the gatehouse. "Look, here comes a giant to knock it down." He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. "Tromp tromp I'm a giant, I'm a giant," he chanted. "Ho ho ho, open your gates or I'll mash them and smash them." Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.

It was more than Sansa could stand. "Robert, stop that." Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll's head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.

Lord Robert's mouth trembled. "You killlllllllled him," he wailed.

So it seems likely that in both cases it was about Sansa ->

"I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

Another mystery solved ^_^

P.S. Though I also used to think that the "slayer" is Arya and that the giant is, maybe, the Mountain or something like that, and that the maid from the vision is some sort of fighter, which eliminated the possibility that it could be Sansa, because Sansa is not a fighter. Though if that savage giant is just a rag-doll and the castle build of snow is just a snow-made model of Winterfell, then that maid could be Sansa, which means that in both cases the visions were about her. So the first one is about the Purple Wedding, and the poison was in Sansa's hair-net - those black amethysts from Asshai, and in the second case it was that scene with little Robert and his doll at the Eyrie.

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8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Most likely, this is that "giant" and the castle build of snow ->

So it seems likely that in both cases it was about Sansa ->

"I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

Another mystery solved ^_^

P.S. Though I also used to think that the "slayer" is Arya and that the giant is, maybe, the Mountain or something like that, and that the maid from the vision is some sort of fighter, which eliminated the possibility that it could be Sansa, because Sansa is not a fighter. Though if that savage giant is just a rag-doll and the castle build of snow is just a snow-made model of Winterfell, then that maid could be Sansa, which means that in both cases the visions were about her. So the first one is about the Purple Wedding, and the poison was in Sansa's hair-net - those black amethysts from Asshai, and in the second case it was that scene with little Robert and his doll at the Eyrie.

It seems the most likely explanation.  But there is a small nugget of doubt in my mind about the savage giant and whether this is Sweetrobin or Baelish.  She didn't really slay Robin, she slapped him.  To me Robin is the doll and Baelish is the giant swinging the doll..

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Ramsey Bolton wrote the Pink Letter. He has all of the needed information to compose the letter. 
 

The prophecy of Azor Ahai’s rebirth has been confirmed when Daenerys hatched her dragons from stone. She is Azor Ahai.

The Ironborn will attack and overrun Winterfell, has happened.  
 

 

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16 hours ago, LynnS said:

So did the poison come from Sansa's hairnet?  How did Joffrey end up with Tyrion's pie?

Because I sometimes suspect that the Ghost of High Heart is talking to Arya about the thing she did at Harrenhal with the Weasil Soup.  And not talking about Sansa at all.  GOHH seems to be confonting Arya:

It sure sounds like the red wedding and then the purple wedding.

I think there is a chance that this is Arya and the one most likely to slay a savage giant as an assassin of thr FM.  Poison is also their stock in trade.  I can see Arya as medusa-like figure dripping venom.

So if there is more to say about pigeon pie that could be confirmed by the second part of GOHH dream.  Whether it's Sansa or Arya.  I'm not sure how else we'd find out about it. 

Yes, the poison came in on the hairnet and Olenna palmed it when she adjusted it. Of course, we can see for ourselves that there was very little wind that day, and the whole purpose of a hairnet is to keep the hair in place even when it is windy. So it would have taken quite a big gust from the short walk from the Hand's tower to the throne room to mess up her hair, and it just didn't happen.

So the maid with the purple serpents in her hair is definitely Sansa, but this vision doesn't say anything about pie or wine. All it means is that Sansa wore the poison on her head into the wedding. The howling wolf and drums and sad bells is the red wedding. The ghost is offering multiple visions of different events here. 

And then we see Lady Olenna's last known position just before the poisoning, right after Tyrion is doused with the wine:

Quote

Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey's elbow. "My sweet king," the Tyrell girl entreated, "come, return to your place, there's another singer waiting."

"Alaric of Eysen," said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. "I do so hope he plays us 'The Rains of Castamere.' It has been an hour, I've forgotten how it goes."

So there is Lady O, on her feet, right behind Tyrion at the head table. Then the pie ceremony and,

Quote

When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream.

Do you see how quickly his pie is served? The big pie was cut (and I hope it's clear that the big pie with live birds in it was not for eating), then the doves, applause, music, whirl (a merry whirl at that -- so much for Joffrey's eagerness to start beating the tar out of Margaery), and the pie is served -- all in a matter of seconds. This means the slice of pie was already cut and plated and was right behind Tyrion during the ceremony -- right where Lady Olenna is standing. So instead of bringing yet another conspirator to somehow do the chalice, which is giant and golden and bejeweled like a giant fishing lure sitting in plain sight of no less than a thousand witnesses, the pie is out of sight to all but the servant holding it. Lady O can easily do it all by herself. She just needs to make sure one person, the servant, is looking up at the doves and she pinches the crystal into the filling -- a blink of an eye and it's done. And she even has a near-certain chance of knowing where Tyrion will take his one and only bite: the pointy end, which is also the easiest to poison.

And there are all kinds of ways we can learn the real truth about what happened here. Lady O and Littlefinger are both still alive. Bran has ways of seeing into the past. Tyrion or even Sansa might puzzle it out.

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“Slaying a savage giant” doesn’t have to be literal. It may have just meant Sansa ripping the head off of Sweetrobin’s doll, or that could have been a red herring for Sansa condemning Littlefinger (who’s house sigil used to be a titan) to death at Winterfell.

Not to be a killjoy, but the mysteries I was referring to are those that lasted at least more than one book, and therefore had time for the fandom to speculate about. 

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17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

“Slaying a savage giant” doesn’t have to be literal. It may have just meant Sansa ripping the head off of Sweetrobin’s doll, or that could have been a red herring for Sansa condemning Littlefinger (who’s house sigil used to be a titan) to death at Winterfell.

Not to be a killjoy, but the mysteries I was referring to are those that lasted at least more than one book, and therefore had time for the fandom to speculate about. 

Oh it's fine.  You're not a killjoy,  It's most likely about Sansa but Martin does this thing to my head; where I doubt what I think. 

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