UK Politics: rooting for the vegetables

[dog-days]

Hussey's a former Lady-in-Waiting. Her entire life has revolved around making small talk with strangers at parties. She should be Level 20 in Passing the Cucumber Sandwiches. I think your interpretation of the conversation is excessively naïve. And how was Fulani being obstructive? She answered the question. "I was born here and am British." 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, dog-days said:

Hussey's a former Lady-in-Waiting. Her entire life has revolved around making small talk with strangers at parties. She should be Level 20 in Passing the Cucumber Sandwiches. I think your interpretation of the conversation is excessively naïve. And how was Fulani being obstructive? She answered the question. "I was born here and am British." 

True but at the same time royals and those in that whole clique are notoriously bad with people and small talk. I’m also sure she has a disdain for the common folk and no doubt does harbour racist sentiment.

However, yes I think Fulani knew exactly what she was being asked every single time it was asked and deliberately responded in a way that refused to accept the frame of the question. That’s up to her, and Hussey should have picked up on it, but as I said I really doubt she has that level of awareness either and so continued to try and get the response she was asking for. 

[dog-days]

How dim do you think Hussey is? In my book, telling Hussey the truth isn't being 'obstructive'. 

[BigFatCoward]

The old lady gets a little bit of a pass for being well old (and being from the palace being mildly rather than openly full on racist).

I'm a bit pissed with Fulani saying its 'abuse' though. It really isn't, it's mildly offensive questioning and its unpleasant, but calm down with the hyperbole. 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, dog-days said:

How dim do you think Hussey is? In my book, telling Hussey the truth isn't being 'obstructive'. 

At what point in that conversation do you think Fulani understood what the question being asked to her was?

[Derfel Cadarn]

21 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

The old lady gets a little bit of a pass for being well old (and being from the palace being mildly rather than openly full on racist).

I'm a bit pissed with Fulani saying its 'abuse' though. It really isn't, it's mildly offensive questioning and its unpleasant, but calm down with the hyperbole. 

Hussey moved her hair. And basically implied she was lying or stupid for not disclosing her family lineage.

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Derfel Cadarn said:

Hussey moved her hair. And basically implied she was lying or stupid for not disclosing her family lineage.

Its certainly unpleasant, but abuse?

[Raja]

'it's mild racism, not openly racist'

Yeah, no thanks.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, dog-days said:

I think your interpretation of the conversation is deliberately obtuse.

FTFY.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't get to say how much racism a person should feel when they are subjected to a racist conversation. But I can try to discern the motive of the person saying the racist things. I find it difficult to believe Lady Hussey was trying to be offensive or abusive, I'm more inclined to believe she simply was incapable of being inoffensive once she started down that line of conversation, and she lacked the social awareness that even starting down that line of conversation can only end in causing offense.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

The old lady gets a little bit of a pass for being well old (and being from the palace being mildly rather than openly full on racist).

No she doesn't. My mother's the same age, and would be rightly appalled at the idea of questioning someone like that. This woman is intelligent, has had race awareness training, and has/had a 'job' where there's a justified, clear, explicit expectation that you cannot do this sort of thing. Her age isn't a factor. She didn't do it because she's old. Whatever Liz herself might have thought, and whatever I might have thought of her, she was older than this woman - but she wouldn't have done this.

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

I'm a bit pissed with Fulani saying its 'abuse' though. It really isn't, it's mildly offensive questioning and its unpleasant, but calm down with the hyperbole. 

It's extremely offensive in my book, but neither my book or yours applies here, because neither of us have ever been subject to this sort of incident.

[BigFatCoward]

11 minutes ago, mormont said:

No she doesn't. My mother's the same age, and would be rightly appalled at the idea of questioning someone like that. 

It's extremely offensive in my book, but neither my book or yours applies here, because neither of us have ever been subject to this sort of incident.

Well your mother is clearly more Liberal than most 83 year olds I've met. And anyway I thought it was obvious I was being facetious. 

So you agree it's not abuse? We only differ on how offensive it is?

 

[BigFatCoward]

Sajid going to stand down at next election, list is growing, is there a correlation between those leaving and those that were likely to have been kicked out anyway?  Are they all in marginal seats, or is it more that they are ones with philosophical differences with current govt?

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

At what point in that conversation do you think Fulani understood what the question being asked to her was?

Q3: No, what part of Africa are YOU from?

 

That's the racism red flag, and completely skipped the "you personally, where where you brought up?" stage that would suggest an interest in the actual person in front of her.
Ask that, and then a few more questions on wherever that was, and you've kinda "earned" the right to ask about ancestral heritage; but you still need to frame it as ancestral heritage, not "you personally".

 

I'm not sure I'd classify it as abuse though - but that's my privilege as a middle aged white man in the UK - I'm not faced with that sort of question every time I meet new people. I can see someone refusing to accept "I was born here" "I'm a British National" as answers of her personal situation could be seen as abusive to someone without my privilege

[BigFatCoward]

Apparently another senior tory up to their old tricks with the raping.  Still got the whip though, so no change. 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

I'm not sure I'd classify it as abuse though 

Yeah, she's getting pretty roundly abused by the usual suspects right now.

Her crime? Changing her slave name to an African name. Therefore culturally appropriating her African ancestry (I mean, what in the actual fuck).

Unfortunately, because European and American slavers didn't generally create records of where people were abducted, she is unable to produce her great, great, great grandfather's Certificate of Abduction.

So she's not quite sure where her ancestors were originally from.

What is clear is that far too many white, British cretins do not appear to understand that the majority of black people from the Caribbean are descended from slaves abducted from Africa.

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

That's the racism red flag, and completely skipped the "you personally, where where you brought up?" stage that would suggest an interest in the actual person in front of her.
Ask that, and then a few more questions on wherever that was, and you've kinda "earned" the right to ask about ancestral heritage; but you still need to frame it as ancestral heritage, not "you personally".

Agree it's worded very poorly and she should have been more direct with her questioning but again 'where are you from' has in the past been a pretty reasonable question to ask, and usually was synonymous with asking about someone's heritage. That this question nowadays has a lot more cultural baggage and that she doesn't seem to be aware of that is on her, but at the same time, her intention seems pretty clear.

And then is it really a racism red flag? Looking at the context of the conversation, Hussey appears to have come up to Fulani, looked at her name badge, displaying an African sounding name (which apparently from the above post she has recently changed it to), observes Fulani wearing clothing which is clearly meant to express African cultural affinity, and makes the assumption that Fulani is from Africa, if not directly then by heritage. I think that would be a pretty safe assumption and Fulani has put in a lot of work to make people think that.

On top of that, this seems to be a conversation starter for Hussey that she's used in the past, others have reported it. I get the sense that many in the royal household are keen to have conversations about other parts of the world as it's something they have the ability to talk about having got to travel around the Commonwealth.
 

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

I'm not sure I'd classify it as abuse though - but that's my privilege as a middle aged white man in the UK - I'm not faced with that sort of question every time I meet new people. I can see someone refusing to accept "I was born here" "I'm a British National" as answers of her personal situation could be seen as abusive to someone without my privilege

It's really not abuse and shouldn't be viewed as such. It's miscommunication and a lack of cultural sensitivity and awareness, and for that reason she probably is not the sort of person who should be performing that role anyway. It isn't an offence to tar a person for life however or basically ruin them. It's a bit of a shame that had to happen.
 

[Derfel Cadarn]

28 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Agree it's worded very poorly and she should have been more direct with her questioning but again 'where are you from' has in the past been a pretty reasonable question to ask, and usually was synonymous with asking about someone's heritage. That this question nowadays has a lot more cultural baggage and that she doesn't seem to be aware of that is on her, but at the same time, her intention seems pretty clear.

And then is it really a racism red flag? Looking at the context of the conversation, Hussey appears to have come up to Fulani, looked at her name badge, displaying an African sounding name (which apparently from the above post she has recently changed it to), observes Fulani wearing clothing which is clearly meant to express African cultural affinity, and makes the assumption that Fulani is from Africa, if not directly then by heritage. I think that would be a pretty safe assumption and Fulani has put in a lot of work to make people think that.

On top of that, this seems to be a conversation starter for Hussey that she's used in the past, others have reported it. I get the sense that many in the royal household are keen to have conversations about other parts of the world as it's something they have the ability to talk about having got to travel around the Commonwealth.
 

It's really not abuse and shouldn't be viewed as such. It's miscommunication and a lack of cultural sensitivity and awareness, and for that reason she probably is not the sort of person who should be performing that role anyway. It isn't an offence to tar a person for life however or basically ruin them. It's a bit of a shame that had to happen.
 

Hussey moved Falani’s hair to read the name badge!

[Heartofice]

9 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Hussey moved Falani’s hair to read the name badge!

Yes she did. Rude but hardly unexpected behaviour from someone like Hussey.

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

And then is it really a racism red flag?

Yes

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

 but again 'where are you from' has in the past been a pretty reasonable question to ask, and usually was synonymous with asking about someone's heritage.

Err... no.

Usually "where are you from" is asking where that person is from, as in - what business, or where do you live, or where did you grow up. That's reasonable.

I've never heard a respectful question about someone's heritage be asked that way. Asking that question that way is unreasonable.

I'd someone asks me where I'm from, and I'm there representing my work, then I'm from Back In Action, the chiropractic clinic. If I think they're asking about me, rather than work, then I'm from Tewkesbury, but I was born and bred in Wiltshire. At no point am I thinking that they're asking where the different branches of my family hailed from a few centuries ago.

FTR, my name is Irish, it would be perfectly reasonable for someone who saw my name tag to say something like "Is that an Irish name? Does you family come from there?" But that's absolutely not what's meant by "But where are you from?"

 

 

 

Doubling down with (an equivalent of) "but where are you really from" means that you're dismissing that person as an individual, rejecting the answer you've already received, and is insulting. Whether it's crossed the line to abuse is not for me to decide.