Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[sifth]

55 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

Jon Snow was the worst leader ever to lead the watch. The only reason to include Jon in any discussion of leadership is as a cautionary tale of what happens when an incompetent son of a noble lord is given a position for which he was obviously not qualified.  Jon is another Weymar.  An arrogant young man with more bravery than brains who ignored the advice of smarter people.  Dany usually weighs advice carefully and generally chooses the right decisions.  Dany is the better leader.

You're not even trying to sound like a separate person anymore. You're literally using the same spacing mistakes every time you make a post, using a different alt.

 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

You're not even trying to sound like a separate person anymore. You're literally using the same spacing mistakes every time you make a post, using a different alt.

 

Maybe it’s AI.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Dany usually weighs advice carefully and generally chooses the right decisions.  Dany is the better leader.

Yes, yes, flying away from all the problems in Meereen of course makes Dany the better leader.

[Kierria]

22 hours ago, sifth said:

Still doesn't answer why a state would willingly give up it's only means of the defense. The world is filled with many people willing to sack a city, just for the hell of it, especially in George's world.

A dragon is worth more than any army.  The Astapori would have been the rulers of the bay given time for Drogon to grow.  The Astapori can always train more soldiers. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

The Masters of Astapor were descended from Ghis.  I would think they knew enough history to understand the power of dragons.  The mighty legions of the best soldiers in the world were able to hold off the dragons but only for so long.  The dragons won the day for Valyria even against a superb force like the legions.  The Unsullied of Astapor hold advantages over the legions of Ghis but they are no match for a grown dragon.  No more than the legions were.  Kraznys was calculating along those lines.  Factor in the pride having a dragon would bring to Astapor and the decision to sell all their soldiers was easy. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 5/30/2023 at 8:04 AM, SoftSpell said:

The OP is wrong to say Allister Thorne was 'higher status' than Jon. He was sent to the Night's Watch as a punishment by Tywin Lannister for opening up King's Landing to be sacked. Jon wasn't there with a crime as reason for joining it.

Thorne is a knight and trueborn.  He is a senior officer at the watch.  Jon is a bastard son with little to nothing in the way of inheritance. 

[StarkTullies]

5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon is a bastard son with little to nothing in the way of inheritance. 

The last three remaining Targaryen kingsguard disagreed.  After Rhaegar was dead, after Mad King Aerys was dead, the Targaryen kingsguards stood guard for Lyanna's son... not Viserys.

I love Jon Snow, and I strongly dislike the Targaryens; I don't want Jon to be the Targaryen heir, but the proof is there.  Not that it matters who the "Targaryen heir" is; the Targaryens no longer have a claim to the Iron Throne.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 1/28/2024 at 4:42 AM, StarkTullies said:

The last three remaining Targaryen kingsguard disagreed.  After Rhaegar was dead, after Mad King Aerys was dead, the Targaryen kingsguards stood guard for Lyanna's son... not Viserys.

I love Jon Snow, and I strongly dislike the Targaryens; I don't want Jon to be the Targaryen heir, but the proof is there.  Not that it matters who the "Targaryen heir" is; the Targaryens no longer have a claim to the Iron Throne.

I have to say that I don't like Jon Snow.  While we cannot say for sure who his father was; I can say we both don't want him to be Targaryen.  I like the Targaryens.  I especially like Daenerys.  I also like a lot of the Targaryens of the past.  The Kingsguards at the Tower would have many reasons to be there other than the theory you believe. 

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I have to say that I don't like Jon Snow.  While we cannot say for sure who his father was; I can say we both don't want him to be Targaryen.  I like the Targaryens.  I especially like Daenerys.  I also like a lot of the Targaryens of the past.  The Kingsguards at the Tower would have many reasons to be there other than the theory you believe. 

The Targaryens are, overall, no better or worse than any other Great House.  They comprise the good, bad, and indifferent.

At an ethical level, I see little to choose between Dany, Jon, or the Starks.

[StarkTullies]

4 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The Kingsguards at the Tower would have many reasons to be there other than the theory you believe. 

What other theories?  I can think of only one logical explanation and three other far-fetched theories:

a) Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son

b) Rhaegar inexplicably lied to the kingsguards claiming that Lyanna's child was his son but he actually wasn't

c) Rhaegar and Lyanna's child that the kingsgguards were protecting was someone other than Jon Snow

d) The three kingsguards were part of a conspiracy to pose a false Targaryen heir, but their conspiracy died with them

During a civil war against the Targaryens when the original heir and king were already dead, there is 0% likelihood that all three remaining Targaryen kingsguards were protecting anybody other than whom they believed to be the Targaryen heir.  Explanation A is the only one that isn't a convoluted storytelling mess.

[Northern Sword]

Daenerys is a better killer for certain. I'm curious to the population difference before and after her appearance in Slaver's Bay. A lot of people have died since she showed up.

She has also made an enemy of everyone she has run across for the most part. She also is ruling a city close to revolt and under attack. 

Not exactly a great leader resume. 

But I guess with a dragon or three, she will always have followers. She did get an army with guile. That's a +. She also has received far more help than Jon, dragons, a khalasar, ships loaded with goods, a bad ass Kings Guard to protect her, looks like Krakens will side with her, and rich friends never hurt. 

Daenerys the Destroyer is a good title for her. Fire and Blood is in her future.

Personally, I'll go with Jon as a better leader though. He can see the big picture, while she is distracted in Meereen. Bangin sell swords and riding dragons. Not that I'd fault her, sounds like a good time.

[SeanF]

50 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Daenerys is a better killer for certain. I'm curious to the population difference before and after her appearance in Slaver's Bay. A lot of people have died since she showed up.

She has also made an enemy of everyone she has run across for the most part. She also is ruling a city close to revolt and under attack. 

Not exactly a great leader resume. 

But I guess with a dragon or three, she will always have followers. She did get an army with guile. That's a +. She also has received far more help than Jon, dragons, a khalasar, ships loaded with goods, a bad ass Kings Guard to protect her, looks like Krakens will side with her, and rich friends never hurt. 

Daenerys the Destroyer is a good title for her. Fire and Blood is in her future.

Personally, I'll go with Jon as a better leader though. He can see the big picture, while she is distracted in Meereen. Bangin sell swords and riding dragons. Not that I'd fault her, sounds like a good time.

Slavers Bay is not a peaceful place, pre-Daenerys.  It runs on killing.

A society where 80% of the people are chattel is one that is at constant war with itself, and one that must foment war and piracy, around it, to maintain the supply of slaves.

Slavers Bay is essentially a vast slave labour camp, a place of relentless killing and misery, of people being worked to death,  and that has been the case for centuries.  It’s George Martin’s Mordor.

Edited February 9 by SeanF

[Northern Sword]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Slavers Bay is not a peaceful place, pre-Daenerys.  It runs on killing.

A society where 80% of the people are chattel is one that is at constant war with itself, and one that must foment war and piracy, around it, to maintain the supply of slaves.

Slavers Bay is essentially a vast slave labour camp, a place of relentless killing and misery, of people being worked to death,  and that has been the case for centuries.  It’s George Martin’s Mordor.

I never said it was some peaceful, hippy love fest there. I get it, life was cheap.

But the utter destruction of Astapor, killings in the streets and slave masters being nailed to posts, all on top of Plague. Dragons are eating kids and a major war kicking off involving all local powers. Depopulation is definitely underway. 

I've crunched the numbers, The population falls 28.3% by the time Danny leaves.

Also, no giant fire eye, no volcanos, no Nazgul and not enough orcs for Mordor ... grow up. 

[SeanF]

24 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

I never said it was some peaceful, hippy love fest there. I get it, life was cheap.

But the utter destruction of Astapor, killings in the streets and slave masters being nailed to posts, all on top of Plague. Dragons are eating kids and a major war kicking off involving all local powers. Depopulation is definitely underway. 

I've crunched the numbers, The population falls 28.3% by the time Danny leaves.

Also, no giant fire eye, no volcanos, no Nazgul and not enough orcs for Mordor ... grow up. 

You’re blaming Daenerys for the slavers’ own actions.  These people possess agency of their own.  They’re the ones fighting savagely to reinstate the Peculiar Institution.

”Mordor” means a place of horror.  Think 18th century Haiti.

Edited February 9 by SeanF

[frenin]

12 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

He can see the big picture,

That's why he gets stabbed.

 

[The Commentator]

Jon Snow got killed because he was a fool who committed treason. Jon sucked so bad at his job, at governing even a tiny outfit like the watch. Bowen Marsh is a loyal, devoted man of the night’s watch and even he was desperate enough to terminate Jon’s reign. Daenerys is so much better at governing and leading.

[Craving Peaches]

19 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Jon sucked so bad at his job, at governing even a tiny outfit like the watch.

He was good enough that they voted for him. Unlike Bowen.

19 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Bowen Marsh is a loyal, devoted man of the night’s watch and even he was desperate enough to terminate Jon’s reign.

Bowen was an idiot and he will soon be a stain on the Wall courtesy of Wun Wun, Seven willing.

19 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Daenerys is so much better at governing and leading.

Daenerys has so far failed to govern anything she's come across well, she actually left Astapor worse off then when she found it which is quite an achievement given how awful Astapor was.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

He was good enough that they voted for him. Unlike Bowen.

Bowen was an idiot and he will soon be a stain on the Wall courtesy of Wun Wun, Seven willing.

Daenerys has so far failed to govern anything she's come across well, she actually left Astapor worse off then when she found it which is quite an achievement given how awful Astapor was.

Amongst all the rubbish, there is, I think, a legitimate criticism, that Jon is trying to fight too many wars, all at once.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Amongst all the rubbish, there is, I think, a legitimate criticism, that Jon is trying to fight too many wars, all at once.

What's he to do? He's sandwiched between two dangerous enemies, possibly 3, since quite a few wildings aren't interested in joining forces with The Watch. Plus winter and the possibility of starvation. The Others can't be reasoned with, The Baltons are psychopaths and Jon has already made peace with all of the civilized wildings he's met. If anything, it's a miracle he's kept things as stable as they were, before his final ADWD chapter.

Edited February 11 by sifth

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Amongst all the rubbish, there is, I think, a legitimate criticism, that Jon is trying to fight too many wars, all at once.

How so?

He was trying to fight the Others, then decided he would fight Ramsay after Ramsay said he would come to kill him. That is only two wars. Unless you are counting all disputes he is involved in, which is a criticism that could also apply to Daenerys.

Edited February 11 by Craving Peaches