I hate the Tyrells for what happened to Renly.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

It’s not really talked about in the books as far as I can remember, but it certainly seems like the Tyrells may have manipulated Renly into making an attempt at the throne. I know Stannis has never been a character to express his emotions, but it’s very clear that he loved/s Renly very much. And when you think about it, how could he not?

Stannis was essentially his father for the early years of Renly’s life. During the Siege of Storm’s End I can only imagine how traumatized both of those children were, but It makes me so sad thinking about Stannis making sure Renly ate what little they had before he could eat. Then post-war, Stannis is essentially banished to Dragonstone, has his own child, and is forced to abandon Renly in Storms End, before he is even 10.

Then the Tyrells swoop in, and convince him he’d be a good king, for….reasons. Turn him against his brother who clearly loves him, and ir gets him killed. Stannis has his responsibility in it to be sure, but imagine without Renly making his claim Stannis would have the man power to easily steamroll the Lannisters, and I doubt Robb attempts to secede. They unite against the IB and crush them, and are united when fAegon comes, and eventually Daenerys.

[Craving Peaches]

I thought the Tyrells convincing Renly to be king was more of a show thing. I didn't get the impression that they were manipulating him to do this in the books.

Renly has some motivations other than Tyrell manipulation to become king anyway, it allows him to get rid of the Lannisters and it gives him a greater chance of survival as he has the largest army. It is unlikely in my opinion that he could get the Tyrell army without becoming king. Now he could have rebelled without their support or just sat in Storm's End, but that leaves him with the Stormlands, who at best can raise ~30,000 troops, which doesn't provide as much protection.

Also, being king seems kind of a last resort for Renly, twice before he tries to limit Lannister (Cersei's) influence, first with the Margaery marriage plot and then with trying to get the royal children away from Cersei. Only when both of these plans fail does he decide to become king. Getting rid of Cersei/the Lannisters seems to be quite a strong motivation in my view, as Renly speaks about how they were going to kill him and Cersei confirms it later in her POV chapter.

54 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Then post-war, Stannis is essentially banished to Dragonstone, has his own child, and is forced to abandon Renly in Storms End, before he is even 10.

I don't think he was forced to abandon Renly. He probably could have visited Renly occasionally if he wanted. Stannis felt really bitter about Renly getting Storm's End and not him. It likely drove a wedge between them.

56 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Turn him against his brother who clearly loves him,

It is clear to us readers because Stannis admits it, but I'd question whether it was so clear to Renly. Stannis 'left' him at a young age and I imagine they would have had disagreements on the small council due to their different personalities. Then one day Stannis just goes away again, and refuses to answer any letters sent. Even when his brother has died he doesn't show up. Stannis still sends no word after Robert's death. Renly decides to rebel. Stannis finally breaks his silence with some incest claim that would have been nice to have earlier. Then, out of nowhere, Stannis shows up, for some reason attacking him rather than their mutual enemy the Lannisters, and threatens to 'destroy' him.

1 hour ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

without Renly making his claim Stannis would have the man power to easily steamroll the Lannisters, and I doubt Robb attempts to secede

The main issue here is that Stannis waits months before making his claim. It was a volatile time and I don't think Renly would just want to wait around to hear from Stannis, given Stannis has been silent for almost a year. Even if Renly backs Stannis there's no guarantee the Tyrells would join. If Stannis makes the claim earlier he could get Robb but if he waits I think that the same result might still occur.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

It’s not really talked about in the books as far as I can remember, but it certainly seems like the Tyrells may have manipulated Renly into making an attempt at the throne. I know Stannis has never been a character to express his emotions, but it’s very clear that he loved/s Renly very much. And when you think about it, how could he not?

Stannis was essentially his father for the early years of Renly’s life. During the Siege of Storm’s End I can only imagine how traumatized both of those children were, but It makes me so sad thinking about Stannis making sure Renly ate what little they had before he could eat. Then post-war, Stannis is essentially banished to Dragonstone, has his own child, and is forced to abandon Renly in Storms End, before he is even 10.

Then the Tyrells swoop in, and convince him he’d be a good king, for….reasons. Turn him against his brother who clearly loves him, and ir gets him killed. Stannis has his responsibility in it to be sure, but imagine without Renly making his claim Stannis would have the man power to easily steamroll the Lannisters, and I doubt Robb attempts to secede. They unite against the IB and crush them, and are united when fAegon comes, and eventually Daenerys.

One of the real tragedies is we dont know if renly.knew pycelle was  in the lannisters corner of not . The seemingltly neutral maester is in charge  of the ravens which means potentialy renly in kl could have been waiting months for a reply from.stannis and put down pycelles daily 'no reply yet' as stannis stubbornness

we know ned got screwed the same way as his reaching out to stannis also never got there.

 

The other elephant in the room is the reach simply.wont accept stannis and his florent family as.regent, the florents wont back down on their claim to be the reachs masters and the tyrells are too intermarried now to be humbled and easily pulled out of their position should they choose to resist...the reaches 100k or so foot , wealth, food and redwyne fleet means who they want as king matters greatly! Renly we know is a charming guy and seemingly (master of laws) a decent admin type thus with stormsend the titles that robert bestoed  the stormlords were with him!

This of course leaves poor renly with  2 binds

1) he is not.impressed with how robert has run the realm and feels stannis sheer unwillingness to bend means hed be terrible.for other reasons...renly actualy wants a decent ruler of the land thus his 1st unselfish  instinct is to ensure ned is regent not himself, ned  would make a fine honourable.regent but when that fails he picks himself

2) reality : he can side with his brother and the 'might' of dragonstone and stormlands vs lannisters, crownlands and possibly  the reach (with robbs kingdom , the vale ,ironborn and dorne possible to.subdue after)  OR the reach+ stormlands vs the lannisters and hope stannis will see reason....given the lannisters killed robert and may still kill him.and  stannis he has to go with the side with a realistic chance!

The other tragedy here is he knows the lannsiters will kill stannis whom he does still love ...hes made the brutally hard choice that offers a realistic chance at revenge for robert and keeping stannis alive!!

When he goes to stormsend to plead with stannis he genuinly hopes the cold rational master tactican who knows the strengths of every house  side of his brother  will win out over the unbending  side.

[Craving Peaches]

I mean at the end of the day it's still Stannis who chose to kill Renly.

[SeanF]

Nothing about Renly suggests to me that he would have been a good king.  So, his death leaves me unmoved.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

Nothing about Renly suggests to me that he would have been a good king.  So, his death leaves me unmoved.

Sean, how can you say something like this? 

My heart is broken!

[EggBlue]

Renly was a big boy . he made his own decisions. besides, I got the impression that Renly convinced the Tyrells to support him, not the other way around.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

It’s not really talked about in the books as far as I can remember, but it certainly seems like the Tyrells may have manipulated Renly into making an attempt at the throne.

From everything we've seen in the books, he didn't seem to mind the idea too much.

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought the Tyrells convincing Renly to be king was more of a show thing.

100% a show only thing. They changed his character a lot and the role of the Tyrells. In the books, Loras and Renly are working together to try and convince Mace to send Margaery to King's Landing to further their plot. They're not taking direction from Mace, the whole thing is their plan and they're trying to convince Mace to join them. 

Same with crowning Renly, really. It was almost certainly Renly and Loras who pushed for it as time passed ( @Craving Peaches is right that there's many months between Robert's death and Stannis's declaration, making Renly's claiming the throne more understandable since his elder brother seemed to plan to remain aloof), and Mace went along with it because he was tempted, despite his mother's objections.

Renly seems to me to have been the most capable candidate for king of the Seven Kingdoms in the War of the Five Kings... but he was probably not the best candidate to be king of the Seven Kingdoms on the verge of a renewed threat from the Others.

[Buried Treasure]

 

3 hours ago, Ran said:

 

Renly seems to me to have been the most capable candidate for king of the Seven Kingdoms in the War of the Five Kings...

I can agree with this. Robb and Balon were regional claimants, Joff was a tyrant. Stannis should have been the best candidate but he sabotaged himself by failing to raise his banners - it's hard to win fealty from anyone when their sword is already pledged elsewhere.

 

Renly's success was in attracting the chivalry of the south to his banner and raising a great army, and from what he said to Cat that is why he believed himself worthy to be king.

That is, it doesn't seem he decided to be king then summoned an army to make it happen. Rather he called the army to remove the Lannister influence and displace Cersei as regent for King Joffrey, and upon seeing number of men who answered his ego swelled so he then decided to crown himself.

Once Renly did decide to be king, only Mace had to be convinced. He was the only lord in Renly's army who's faction was big enough that riding away would have doomed Renly's cause. For a minor lordling who was willing to support dashing Lord Renly in removing the influence of bad councillors at court, but who hadn't intended treason against King Joffrey, it would have been dangerous to mention any doubts after already joining Renly's army.

 

[James Steller]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

 

Renly seems to me to have been the most capable candidate for king of the Seven Kingdoms in the War of the Five Kings

List his credentials and accomplishments which make him a good king, then. Because outside of personal charm and the fact that Robert and Mace liked him more than Stannis, I don't see any real reason to support him as king. 

Say what you will about Stannis, and don't get me wrong, there's quite a few reasons why I hesitate to support him, but at least he's been evolving and adapting to become a better commander and a worthier candidate to be king. Renly was just coasting and letting the world burn so he'd look like a better candidate by default.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

100% a show only thing. They changed his character a lot and the role of the Tyrells. In the books, Loras and Renly are working together to try and convince Mace to send Margaery to King's Landing to further their plot. They're not taking direction from Mace, the whole thing is their plan and they're trying to convince Mace to join them. 

Same with crowning Renly, really. It was almost certainly Renly and Loras who pushed for it as time passed ( @Craving Peaches is right that there's many months between Robert's death and Stannis's declaration, making Renly's claiming the throne more understandable since his elder brother seemed to plan to remain aloof), and Mace went along with it because he was tempted, despite his mother's objections.

Renly seems to me to have been the most capable candidate for king of the Seven Kingdoms in the War of the Five Kings... but he was probably not the best candidate to be king of the Seven Kingdoms on the verge of a renewed threat from the Others.

Perhaps I’m wrong, I just remember getting that vibe while reading the books. I don’t know why. But aside from being personable, what qualities did he have that made him so suitable? We really don’t see him demonstrate much other than charisma. Which, if you recall, young Robert had in spades.

I think Stannis would be the best choice honestly. He isn’t personable at all,  but I’m the administration being King, in making sure everything is fair and as just as possible, I feel like he’d be great. If he got rid of Melisandre.

 

Ideally in my opinion, Stannis as King with Renly as his Hand would’ve been best for the realm. Stannis with the ultimate authority on policy and decisions with Renly’s charisma and seeming savvy as King.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

But aside from being personable, what qualities did he have that made him so suitable?

He was willing to delegate tasks based on merit, listen to advice, and I thought his military strategy was actually quite smart. Tyrion seemed to think so l.

The advantage he has over Stannis is being personable and not being affiliated with foreign religious extremism. Stannis allowing the statues of the Seven and Sept to be burned was not smart at all. It is important for the king to be likable or it makes relations with vassals (and everyone else) more difficult.

[James Steller]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He was willing to delegate tasks based on merit, listen to advice,

If anyone was a meritocrat, it's Stannis. He literally took a smuggler from Flea Bottom and made him Hand of the King.

Renly played the game of court intrigue; he was charismatic and courtly, so he could maneuver his way through a crowd of southron nobles. When he isn't enthralled to Melisandre, Stannis is the one who listens to blunt truths regardless of who's speaking them. Davos and Jon Snow would never have been able to tell Renly anything, at least from the how he's presented in the story. His crack about onion knights is proof that he goes along with the snobbish anti-Davos attitude among the nobility. 

[Craving Peaches]

My King is being slandered! 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

but at least he's been evolving and adapting to become a better commander and a worthier candidate to be king

Of course Stannis has been evolving more than Renly, he's had three more books to do so and he isn't dead.

41 minutes ago, James Steller said:

If anyone was a meritocrat, it's Stannis. He literally took a smuggler from Flea Bottom and made him Hand of the King.

After he had to execute his last Hand for treason. Who was one of his in-laws. Don't forget he made another one of his in-laws admiral over Davos (I really don't understand why Stannis did this when Davos is clearly the superior choice).

[Ran]

We act as if ability to maneuver among other people of power and importance is unimportant... but it's pretty directly why Stannis has largely failed in his claim to the Seven Kingdoms. When he sought supporters, they preferred Renly, not because Renly was some uber-general or famous tourney knight or whatever, but because Renly knew how to work with people and make them loyal. Stannis laments how Robert (and, by extension, Renly) had the gift of making friends of people, because he lacks that ability. 

Renly could actually be a ruler trying to keep together the Seven Kingdoms and manage complex issues in the way that Robert, Ned, and Stannis couldn't. Ned hated the business of managing the realm. Robert too. Stannis almost certainly would and would grate his teeth and do it anyways... but as he promises Davos, he wants to force the people of the Seven Kingdoms to bend to his will, and there'll be blood spilled before he admits that maybe there's only so far you can go. 

44 minutes ago, James Steller said:

If anyone was a meritocrat, it's Stannis. He literally took a smuggler from Flea Bottom and made him Hand of the King.

And then he does the right thing of going to the Wall to fight the Others... and immediately thereafter turns his attention back to his southern ambitions, seeking the Iron Throne, once again putting the cart before the horse.

Stannis listens to a point. His willingness to reward Davos and listen to him is good, but the only reason Edric Storm wasn't sacrificed was that Davos had to sneak him out from under his nose. 

 

[SeanF]

My dislike of Renly is based upon his casual and flippant attitude towards taking human life.  As king, he’d just squash like a bug, anyone who got in his way.

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My dislike of Renly is based upon his casual and flippant attitude towards taking human life.  

I always thought the way he acted towards Stannis' death was a coping thing. Like James Bond when he makes a quip after brutally disposing of someone.

[Morte]

1 hour ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Perhaps I’m wrong, I just remember getting that vibe while reading the books. I don’t know why.

I think you got that vibe because it isn't Renly's first plan. His first plan after being visibly shaken by Roberts death (his shock about his brothers death and him staying by his side except while Ned sends everybody away always was something that made Renly sympathetic for me, btw) is to take Roberts children away from their mothers and Lannister influence and make Ned Regent till Joff comes off age.

After this, weeks and months passed, during which he and Loras forged the plan to crown Renly. At this moment we can not say, who of them two had the original idea.

I think, if it was indeed Loras who solidified the idea about kingship in Renly, we would get the info most likely only from a Loras POV.

[James Arryn]

Feudal politics IS personal politics. They don’t appear on camera, they don’t address congress. They develop personal relationships with the people who matter, and lean on those personal relationships to rule. That’s the job.
 

Saying Stannis would be a good feudal leader if only he was good with people is like saying he’d be a good pilot if only he could see and calculate. Where people get that it’s some kind of frivolity I’ll never understand.