I hate the Tyrells for what happened to Renly.

[Loose Bolt]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

(I really don't understand why Stannis did this when Davos is clearly the superior choice).

In Westeros pedigree matters. So an idiot with ancient and noble blood will outrank somebody without as good pedigree. After all Freys had been around at least 600 years but there are still some people who thinks them as upstarts.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Loose Bolt said:

In Westeros pedigree matters. So an idiot with ancient and noble blood will outrank somebody without as good pedigree. After all Freys had been around at least 600 years but there are still some people who thinks them as upstarts.

True, but Stannis is supposed to be meritocratic so he shouldn't care so much. I'm not sure I agree he is but that is what people think.

[James Steller]

20 hours ago, Ran said:

We act as if ability to maneuver among other people of power and importance is unimportant... but it's pretty directly why Stannis has largely failed in his claim to the Seven Kingdoms. When he sought supporters, they preferred Renly, not because Renly was some uber-general or famous tourney knight or whatever, but because Renly knew how to work with people and make them loyal. Stannis laments how Robert (and, by extension, Renly) had the gift of making friends of people, because he lacks that ability. 

Yes, Renly has a more charming personality, but I don't really get why people act like Stannis can't inspire loyalty. He's been struggling to keep his head above water for quite some time, and yet his forces are still utterly loyal to him. I don't just mean Davos. Look at the knights and common men and freeriders who are still with him, from Storm's End to Blackwater to the Wall to Moat Cailin to the march on Winterfell. My favourite example is Clayton Suggs. A truly horrid man, like a low-rent Ramsay with his love of torture and cruelty. He would easily be the first person who'd leave a lost cause, but he's still marching with Stannis. And when riders approach their camp, Clayton doesn't hesitate; he rips his sword out of his scabbard and prepares to fight them to the death while someone else raises the alarm. I always thought it was a remarkable moment, because it showed me just how Stannis could inspire this truly heinous human being to act heroically.

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True, but Stannis is supposed to be meritocratic so he shouldn't care so much. I'm not sure I agree he is but that is what people think.

 

He doesn't, but as he said to Davos, he needed these nobles, so he couldn't deal with them the way he wished. And again, he's still evolving. Later on after Blackwater, he chooses Davos to be his hand over Axell Florent, because he knows Davos will tell the truth no matter what. 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, James Steller said:

He doesn't, but as he said to Davos, he needed these nobles, so he couldn't deal with them the way he wished.

I understand he can't put Davos just anywhere at the time but the Battle was a very important one. Surely there was another noble more qualified than Imry Florent? He had Aurane Waters too.

[Ran]

Yeah, I don't think it's as easy as saying that he's "meritocratic". Davos is basically the sole example of someone who has risen high in Stannis's service who comes from a lower background. Everyone else he depends on are nobles, and in the case of the Florents it's clear he chose based on their name and relation to him, not on merit.

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My favourite example is Clayton Suggs.

He's not doing it for Stannis. He's one of the queen's men, a R'hllorian.

Most of the people who have followed Stannis to the Wall are either R'hllorian dead-enders or people who basically have no choice or prospects left to them. Do you think people were free to just walk away from Dragonstone after the Blackwater? If they ended up on a ship carrying them to safety, they were there for the long-haul because Stannis wasn't going to brook deserters.

There are king's men, people who are truly loyal to Stannis, men like Rolland Storm and Andrew Estermont (a kinsman, though) and Geral Gower, and of course Davos. But they're not all that many.

[James Steller]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I understand he can't put Davos just anywhere at the time but the Battle was a very important one. Surely there was another noble more qualified than Imry Florent? He had Aurane Waters too.

Agreed. Choosing Imry Florent was stupid. I don't know why GRRM wrote it that way. I guess he really needed Stannis to lose.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, I don't think it's as easy as saying that he's "meritocratic". Davos is basically the sole example of someone who has risen high in Stannis's service who comes from a lower background.

True, but more than any other great house in Westeros. 

[sifth]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:00 AM, SeanF said:

Nothing about Renly suggests to me that he would have been a good king.  So, his death leaves me unmoved.

I agree, but when compared to Joffrey and Balon, he's great. He'd also be better than Robb, IMO

I'm 50/50 on if he'd be better than Stannis though.

[sifth]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I understand he can't put Davos just anywhere at the time but the Battle was a very important one. Surely there was another noble more qualified than Imry Florent? He had Aurane Waters too.

If anything not having Mel at his side is what cost him The Battle of the Blackwater. Odds are she'd have been able to see through Tyrion's plans and ruin most of them.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Morte said:

I think, if it was indeed Loras who solidified the idea about kingship in Renly, we would get the info most likely only from a Loras POV.

It strikes one as very unlikely that Loras did put this idea in Renly's head considering Renly admits he was scheming to make Margaery Robert's queen earlier. Renly had Loras write letters to Mace urging him to send Margaery to court, etc. If this had been Loras' idea one would imagine that Loras would have brought Margaery to court with him when he came to court for the Tourney of the Hand.

Renly tried to use the Tyrells to his advantage, not the other way around. And Loras is years younger than Renly, served as his squire, meaning if anything Renly seduced and used the boy to his ends and plesaure, not the other way around. It is quite clear who was in charge of that relationship considering Loras apparently deeply in love with Renly ... while Renly may not have been exactly faithful.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

True, but more than any other great house in Westeros. 

I mean, a lot of people of common birth apparently rose high in the ranks of the fiscal bureaucracy of King's Landing under Robert... err... 

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, sifth said:

I agree, but when compared to Joffrey and Balon, he's great. He'd also be better than Robb, IMO

I'm 50/50 on if he'd be better than Stannis though.

I think Robb’s fatal flaw was that his war aim - an independent sovereign state in the Riverlands and North - made an enemy out of everyone else.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

I mean, a lot of people of common birth apparently rose high in the ranks of the fiscal bureaucracy of King's Landing under Robert... err... 

Not quite the same, though, is it? IMO one relationship that comes closer is that of Aegon V and Dunk. 

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Ran said:

And then he does the right thing of going to the Wall to fight the Others... and immediately thereafter turns his attention back to his southern ambitions, seeking the Iron Throne, once again putting the cart before the horse.

Do you actually interpret the Northern campaign against the Boltons, etc. as him seeking the Iron Throne again? Sure enough, it remains his ultimate goal, but the impression I had was that he was doing that mainly to secure the North and ensure that his preparations for winter would not be interfered with by an open southern flank. If he controls all the North he can take possession of Moat Cailin and ensure the Lannisters, etc. stay down in the south for the time being.

I mean, sure enough, there are people thinking Stannis would continue to march down south again were he to defeat the Boltons and win the allegiance of the entire North ... but that notion always felt completely weird to me.

22 hours ago, James Steller said:

Say what you will about Stannis, and don't get me wrong, there's quite a few reasons why I hesitate to support him, but at least he's been evolving and adapting to become a better commander and a worthier candidate to be king. Renly was just coasting and letting the world burn so he'd look like a better candidate by default.

Renly is everything what people in this feudal world want in a king. Robert had part of that - the charisma, but not the mental abilities/strength of character. Renly seems to have both. Stannis is not only completely devoid of charisma, he also constantly whines about how hard everything was for him.

I mean, how a shithead boss/king the guy is you can really draw from Theon 1 when we finally see Stannis interact with his underlings in the most private of settings. They are on the brink of doom, and yet this man has no nice word for his most loyal followers. He dresses them down, he mocks them, he expects them to do whatever he says just because he says so.

That's not how you inspire loyalty. It is the opposite of that. And if you wonder how George might end up killing Stannis then a very likely scenario there actually is that the so-called Queen's Men end up putting the asshole down once they realize he isn't the savior Melisandre thought he was. Because their loyality is not to Stannis as such, but to Stannis within the religious framework of Melisandre's teachings.

And Stannis meritocratic approach is nonexistent. He only truly favors Davos after he was defeated and the proper noblemen who reluctantly joined him deserted him again. And then he dreams the mad dream of 'creating new lords' which effectively evokes him cleansing Westeros with fire and sword of the established nobility.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is quite clear who was in charge of that relationship considering Loras apparently deeply in love with Renly ... while Renly may not have been exactly faithful.

Yeah, Loras definitely seems to be way more into Renly than Renly was into him.

[Ran]

There's no evidence that I know of that Renly was unfaithful to Loras once their relationship began, by the by. We don't really know.

I don't really know where we get the sense that Renly didn't feel for Loras deeply? They were certainly close, from what Catelyn saw.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not quite the same, though, is it? IMO one relationship that comes closer is that of Aegon V and Dunk. 

Only if Egg is the king who names Dunk to the KG. Of course, his friendship with Egg brought him into the Targaryen circle, but chances are actually not that bad that Maekar - or perhaps even Aerys I (say, after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion) - gives Dunk his white cloak rather than Egg.

Although I'd expect Egg's court to actually include more people from humble(r) backgrounds than any other king's.

Davos only truly rises at Stannis' court after Stannis has lost most of his other men. And in part only due to Melisandre's positive intervention. Davos and the readership don't realize it in ASoS, but Mel understands that Davos is deeply loyal to Stannis, and she thinks it good if he is surrounded by a man who would never, ever betray him. That's why she bothers visiting Davos in the dungeon, etc.

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

There's no evidence that I know of that Renly was unfaithful to Loras once their relationship began, by the by. We don't really know.

I don't really know where we get the sense that Renly didn't feel for Loras deeply? They were certainly close, from what Catelyn saw.

There is that quote about the serving woman Tyrion takes from Renly who, therefore, supposedly knows how to keep her mouth shut. Loras Tyrell didn't actually resided at the Red Keep, did he, so the allusion there is that there were things going on in Renly's chambers servants would have to keep quiet about that don't involve Loras Tyrell.

By the time Renly had crowned himself he had married himself to House Tyrell two ways - by making Margaery his wife and by making Loras the Lord Commander of his Rainbow Guard. At that time there would be no opportunity for other lovers or distractions.

But while Loras was at home in Highgarden and Renly in KL we can expect the guy to have fun.

Insofar as the nature of their relationship is concerned: It started as a squire-knight relationship with Renly being years older than Loras - both means that all the power in their relationship belonged to Lord Renly. We know that Dunk has the right to physically chastise Prince Aegon as his knightly master (even if he rarely or never does that). We don't know how young Loras was when he was sent to Storm's End nor whether he was sure about his sexuality then. You can interpret Loras' remark about Renly's pornographic books as a hint that Renly was grooming/seducing the boy.

We would definitely say that their relationship started while Loras was still Renly's squire due to the significance of the special place at Storm's End where Loras buried Renly. That could actually mean Renly and Loras had a romantic or even sexual relationship when Loras was only twelve years old (it may feel odd to contemplate this, but Loras is a very beautiful person, and he may have matured very early considering his great talents at arms and his early knighthood which wasn't just Renly's gift to a dutiful squire). At the latest one imagines that it started when Loras was fourteen, since Renly gave Loras his knighthood when he was fifteen, and we assume that their relationship lasted some time when we first meet them. There certainly is some depth to it, especially on Loras' side, so it cannot have been just a prolonged flirt/infatuation.

Loras' own faithfulness to Renly's memory and his willingness to join the KG thereafter (the Rainbow Guard apparently didn't involve vows of landlessness nor chastity) also may imply that Renly was his first and, so far, only lover with the youth not being able to contemplate the idea that he might fall in love again.

That is a massive hint against the notion that Loras actually seduced Renly or had had any romantic/sexual experiences/relationships before going to Storm's End. Which also wouldn't surprise us considering he might have been sent there at the age of ten or so.

[James Arryn]

Another popular misconception, for various reasons, is that Renly sucks at the martial aspect. I’d say we have very little evidence of that, and a lot to say otherwise.

First, in terms of natural ability, Renly is repeatedly described as a younger, slightly smaller Robert, very tall, muscular, powerful and (importantly) lithe. So probably around 6’3” or 6’4”, strong as hell, but quick and athletic, lean of waist but broad of chest and shoulders. There are more ‘toolsy’ fighters in ASOIAF, but not too many. And the ‘lithe’ aspect coupled with the size and power really does reflect (in slightly smaller scale) how Robert is described; much quicker and more athletic than his size should allow, a combination also mentioned for many of the most gifted warriors in the series. Additionally he is shown as being quick-witted, brave, and as someone who thoroughly enjoys hunting and jousting.

In the only tourney we hear of him entering he is said to have done very well, finally losing to eventual champion Sandor Clegane, an encounter he literally laughs off the moment it happens. This is NOT the feeble, shrinking pacifist of the tv show. Moreover, if he is as physically described, he’s probably even better suited to the melee…Robert rarely entered the lists and made no particular name for himself there either. I agree he seems to lack Robert/Lyonel’s sheer love of battering smaller men to submission, and he’s correspondingly probably not going to dominate battlefields quite like Robert did, but few do. Another irony is that young Robert is basically an inflated version of Edward IV, whereas Renly actually almost exactly fits the description of arguably England’s greatest warrior king. 

Anyways, he doesn’t fight in melees because he doesn’t love it like Robert did, but that does not prove he can’t or won’t. Like with so many aspects of Renly, the show’s version really twisted perceptions of him. That and Stannis trying to insult him…Stannis at the same time also criticizes Ned’s honor for accepting the post of Hand, btw…and from a really silly quote about him from someone who hasn’t seen him since he was, what, 5, and besides proven wrong on the other 2 brothers. 
 

Then we move on to command, and here imo Renly shows real promise. His campaign shows that he understands grand strategy better than almost anyone in the books, and some SERIOUS abilities in logistics, which as anyone who studies military history will tell you is often the ability that makes great commanders great. He develops an intelligent and effective strategy that several of the top thinkers in the books consider very clever, he keeps a huge mobile army well fed, supplied, and in very good morale. At the pre-battle strategy meeting at SE he is shown to be able to both listen and delegate effectively, but also be decisive and in unquestioned command.
 

And he shows flexibility; realpolitik grand strategy that virtually guarantees his victory, but when his brother declares war on him (yea, that was the way it was despite posters so often trying to imply it was the reverse) and attacks his seat, he seizes the opportunity of catching his enemy making a brutally foolish military mistake; never allow yourself to be caught in a siege by an army in the field…to say nothing of being completely outnumbered and, crucially, having enemy forces to front and rear. Without Deus Ex Machina appearing for the first time (second if you count the boar?) in the main text, it’s as sure of a thing as it gets. And, lastly but also crucially, his men love him. He has all the makings of a superior warrior and commander, a lesser Robert in combat and a kind of hybrid Robert/Stannis commander with an extra side of almost modern understanding of isolating and attacking his enemy’s schwerpunkt. 
 

One final note: Stannis fans readily defend Stannis’ weaknesses, obsessive narcissism and general unpleasantness with what he was forced to endure; younger brother of the HS QB, orphaned at a young age, endured a terrible siege as a teen, etc. Well, Renly experienced all of those exact same crucibles, only as a much younger boy, child instead of teen. He’s spent almost his entire life an orphan, we know of no Coleman protective figure who favours him, and he also ate rats…at the age of 5 or 6. 
 

Why are these things mentioned ad nauseum re: Stannis but so little about Renly that most posters probably don’t even remember that they are true(r) of him? Oh, right, because Renly does not spend almost every moment on page complaining about all the bad things he’s gone through. 

 

 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

 He'd also be better than Robb, IMO.

What makes you believe that?

[James Arryn]

Oh, another interesting note on Renly;

 

His was the largest of the 5K’s size and power, his the most numerous followers…and yet despite this we read of exactly 0 POVs who are on his side. This contrasts with literally every one of the other 5 Kings, we get to see them in real time from the perspective of people who knew and sympathized with them…often with several characters. How differently do you think he’d be shown through the eyes of say Loras? Or possibly one of his other close friends, namely…oh, we have no idea because we never read about it from anyone who would know. Unlike every other of the 5K. 
 

So to people who declare ‘I see nothing worthwhile in him as a king’ I’d say ‘What worthwhile have you seen in the others, and more importantly who told you about it?

edit: accidentally brushed submit. 
 

The closest we get is Brienne, and she demonstrates an incredibly sympathetic/positive view of him, but she:

*only shows Renly in retrospect, only from after he was already dead.

*barely knew him.

So it’s not nearly the same. But an interesting angle on the Brienne retrospective on Renly is that it’s almost always dismissed as through the rose coloured glasses of someone with strong feelings for them. At first that seems a ~ reasonable perspective, except that almost every sympathetic view of any of the others is told from the POV of someone with strong feelings for them, and we don’t dismiss those, do we?