The Theft of Ice

[Nevets]

When Ned returned Dawn to House Dayne it was considered worthy of notice, if not unusual and unexpected.  So I suspect that keeping a sword is not entirely unusual or unexpected.  It also doesn't appear to be common knowledge that Ice has been turned into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

[The Wolves]

18 hours ago, The Commentator said:

What consequence do you expect? It wasn’t theft. It’s a victory trophy for the Lannisters. That’s how people see it.

A writ of attainder was signed and it took away everything from the poor Starks. The kids deserve better but Jon, Robb, and Sansa aren’t blameless in the Stark fall.  

How does Jon bare any blame on what happens to the Starks all the way at the wall? 
 

[Curled Finger]

18 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Legally speaking Joffrey was entitled to take Ice, but I suspect a lot of houses would think what Tywin did with it - melting it down and having it completely remade, and dying the new swords red into the bargain - was rather tacky and vulgar.

The question that comes to my mind is whether anyone actually knows that Widow's Wail is made from Ice. Did Tywin announce it when he gave Joffrey the sword? I can't remember. And Oathkeeper doesn't really seem to be public knowledge.

Sword Geek Spitball:  Red Rain, House Drumm's sword, may be the sword that belonged to House Reyne.  There is no real description of this sword other than it is a longsword.  There are some artist's depictions of the blade as actually being red.  If true, this alone could have influenced Tywin's thinking about the color of his cool new blades.  Nothing worse that your arch nemesis having a truly unique Valyrian Steel sword when your moron family lost their bigger one.  

Tywin made a big deal of presenting Valyrian Steel to Joffrey at his wedding.  Upon seeing Widow's Wail Sansa immediately asks where her father's sword is, so make of that what you will.  Tyrion sees OK before it is adorned and wonders where the metal came from then later thinks he should have sent Ice to Robb.  While you are right that OK isn't widely known, anyone who sees it recognizes it instantly as a Lannister blade.  Jamie and Tyrion know both blades were refashioned from Ice, which may be all the people needed to "reunite" the swords for the cause they in whatever form, were intended for.  

 

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Could WW and Oathkeeper be remade into Ice?

No reason they could not be provided there is a competent Qohori smith to speak the spells and work the steel.   Thing is, would it be an exact replica of itself?  Who knows what it really looked like?  I reckon Jon or one of the kids would, but what purpose would it serve to make a big greatsword of 2 perfectly serviceable longswords?  Who of the heroes other than Jorah Mormont is able bodied enough to actually handle a greatsword?  Sandor's got a bum leg, Jon's got a bastard sword which is plenty big enough, Tormund doesn't use a sword, Jamie hasn't got a sword hand, Brienne has a fine longsword, Arya is a little girl, Sam sucks at swords...

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

No reason they could not be provided there is a competent Qohori smith to speak the spells and work the steel.   Thing is, would it be an exact replica of itself?  Who knows what it really looked like?  I reckon Jon or one of the kids would, but what purpose would it serve to make a big greatsword of 2 perfectly serviceable longswords?  Who of the heroes other than Jorah Mormont is able bodied enough to actually handle a greatsword?  Sandor's got a bum leg, Jon's got a bastard sword which is plenty big enough, Tormund doesn't use a sword, Jamie hasn't got a sword hand, Brienne has a fine longsword, Arya is a little girl, Sam sucks at swords...

Drogon will wield Ice in one hand and Dawn in the other.

Gendry is probably a big enough lad to wield Ice, but everything points to his using a hammer like his dad. Maybe eventually Rickon will grow into it.

[The Commentator]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:24 AM, The Wolves said:

How does Jon bare any blame on what happens to the Starks all the way at the wall? 
 

He stuck his long nose into Ramsay’s business. The loss of the sword was not his fault but the harm he caused at the Wall will have long term consequences for the whole kingdom.  

[sweetsunray]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:24 PM, Curled Finger said:

No reason they could not be provided there is a competent Qohori smith to speak the spells and work the steel.   Thing is, would it be an exact replica of itself?  Who knows what it really looked like?  I reckon Jon or one of the kids would, but what purpose would it serve to make a big greatsword of 2 perfectly serviceable longswords?  Who of the heroes other than Jorah Mormont is able bodied enough to actually handle a greatsword?  Sandor's got a bum leg, Jon's got a bastard sword which is plenty big enough, Tormund doesn't use a sword, Jamie hasn't got a sword hand, Brienne has a fine longsword, Arya is a little girl, Sam sucks at swords...

I think that after the battle for the new Dawn, both swords will end up in Stark hands or at least personal guarding knight of theirs for two different rulers. One for Bran from central Westeros, one for whomever rules the North.

[Curled Finger]

21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think that after the battle for the new Dawn, both swords will end up in Stark hands or at least personal guarding knight of theirs for two different rulers. One for Bran from central Westeros, one for whomever rules the North.

I never really thought about what would happen to the swords after the Battle.  There you go, making all those little gears grind, sweetsunray!  Always assumed the Battle is what they were made for and where they would be destroyed.  Going to have to give some serious thought to afterward.   

[LindsayLohan]

If Ice is a large as depicted in art and the show, there is no way a man Eddard’s size could have wielded it in battle. I think for anyone holding a smaller VS sword, you’d be insane to go into combat without it. Remember Brienne’s thoughts about fighting with Oathkeeper? The weight of the blade was like pressing turbo in Street Fighter, a cheat code.

I do hope to see Blackfyre or Dark Sister pop up.

[Alester Florent]

4 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

If Ice is a large as depicted in art and the show, there is no way a man Eddard’s size could have wielded it in battle. I think for anyone holding a smaller VS sword, you’d be insane to go into combat without it. Remember Brienne’s thoughts about fighting with Oathkeeper? The weight of the blade was like pressing turbo in Street Fighter, a cheat code.

I do hope to see Blackfyre or Dark Sister pop up.

it's not totally ridiculous, especially if Valyrian steel is lighter than regular steel. Ice is said to be about 6 feet long, which is big, but there were zweihanders and early claymores of approximately that length, and zweihanders could be approximately double the weight of arming swords, so forging two out of Ice is plausible.

Of course, the terminology makes things a little more confusing, although I suspect GRRM was writing with standard fantasy definitions in mind rather than archaeologist/historians' tighter definitions. Ice is a two-handed "greatsword" while Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are one-handed "longswords", but a historical longsword of the later Middle Ages was really what pop culture (and GRRM) calls a "bastard sword" (i.e. a sword that can be used one-handed but is arguably better suited to two) and "greatsword" can mean anything from being pretty much synonymous with "longsword" upwards.

You couldn't wield a zweihander in one hand, though, and they were really quite specialised weapons, rather than just being "bigger = better sword".

[Northern Sword]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

it's not totally ridiculous, especially if Valyrian steel is lighter than regular steel. Ice is said to be about 6 feet long, which is big, but there were zweihanders and early claymores of approximately that length, and zweihanders could be approximately double the weight of arming swords, so forging two out of Ice is plausible.

Of course, the terminology makes things a little more confusing, although I suspect GRRM was writing with standard fantasy definitions in mind rather than archaeologist/historians' tighter definitions. Ice is a two-handed "greatsword" while Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are one-handed "longswords", but a historical longsword of the later Middle Ages was really what pop culture (and GRRM) calls a "bastard sword" (i.e. a sword that can be used one-handed but is arguably better suited to two) and "greatsword" can mean anything from being pretty much synonymous with "longsword" upwards.

You couldn't wield a zweihander in one hand, though, and they were really quite specialised weapons, rather than just being "bigger = better sword".

Plus, if you trained with it your whole life. It would become normal. Especially with the reduced weight.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

If Ice is a large as depicted in art and the show, there is no way a man Eddard’s size could have wielded it in battle. I think for anyone holding a smaller VS sword, you’d be insane to go into combat without it. Remember Brienne’s thoughts about fighting with Oathkeeper? The weight of the blade was like pressing turbo in Street Fighter, a cheat code.

I do hope to see Blackfyre or Dark Sister pop up.

If my weapons sources are right the swords are huge, but they don't weight that much.  A real one would go maybe 20 pounds.  It's not that heavy, really, it is awkward.  For all it's worth, it is good to keep in mind these are magic swords and it is like having a cheat code.  Jon and Brienne both say their swords make them better fighters.  

[LindsayLohan]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If my weapons sources are right the swords are huge, but they don't weight that much.  A real one would go maybe 20 pounds.  It's not that heavy, really, it is awkward.  For all it's worth, it is good to keep in mind these are magic swords and it is like having a cheat code.  Jon and Brienne both say their swords make them better fighters.  

Oh, definitely. But the length of Ice, in Ned’s hands… at some point the tip is dragging or getting stuck in the ground, and Ned is getting killed by some random jabroni. It’s absurdly large, and Ned isn’t. 

[The Wolves]

12 hours ago, The Commentator said:

He stuck his long nose into Ramsay’s business. The loss of the sword was not his fault but the harm he caused at the Wall will have long term consequences for the whole kingdom.  

I’m asking what part Jon played in the downfall of the Starks? They are scattered and seat lost, Jon played no part in what happened to the Starks. 
 

Westeros has been through a brutal civil war. The kings and great lords and ladies who are supposed to have the kingdom’s best interest at heart have burned the citizens homes, raped, murdered, imprisoned them and their loved ones. Than left them vulnerable to a horrible winter that the world haven’t seen in thousands of years. They already have long term consequences. 
 

I doubt Jon’s actions will have such huge consequences for Westeros. 

[The Commentator]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:28 PM, The Wolves said:

I’m asking what part Jon played in the downfall of the Starks? They are scattered and seat lost, Jon played no part in what happened to the Starks. 
 

Westeros has been through a brutal civil war. The kings and great lords and ladies who are supposed to have the kingdom’s best interest at heart have burned the citizens homes, raped, murdered, imprisoned them and their loved ones. Than left them vulnerable to a horrible winter that the world haven’t seen in thousands of years. They already have long term consequences. 
 

I doubt Jon’s actions will have such huge consequences for Westeros. 

His actions are what caused chaos at the Wall. You bet the consequences for Westeros will be severe.  

[Curled Finger]

On 3/16/2023 at 4:31 PM, Mourning Star said:

I think the distinction I would make here is that the sword was given to Jon as a reward for service, rather than inheritance, for merit rather than blood right.

An enormous and fitting service at that.  These swords are specifically designed to smite Others.  As magical items go to questing knights in tales this was perfect. 

[Kal-L]

On 3/16/2023 at 6:28 PM, Mourning Star said:

Friendly reminder that the Valyrian Steel Sword Ice may just be a stand in, or replacement, for some older weapon of House Stark.

She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

One might argue that the breaking of the Valyrian Steel Sword Ice represents the breaking of the Valyrian rule of House Stark, and the return of the Kings in the North.

This.

I used to feel a lot about Tywin's shabby claim over Lord Eddard's sword, but with time, I realized that the Valyrian sword means nothing in the long history of House Stark. It was not Brandon the Builder's sword, neither was it Brandon the Breaker's. Theon Stark the Hungry wolf never saw that sword either, nor did Jon Stark the Laughing Wolf.

Although it was wasn't his purpose, Tywin Lannister did good by having the sword splitten in two long swords. The LN will require as many VS as possible, not some shiny ceremonial sword kept hidden in the dark out of greed.

I also have think that the original Ice, the actual ancestral sword of House Stark might appear in the future. My hypothesis is that the sword property might be similar to Dawn, and that just like House Dayne's legendary sword, only the worthy member of House Stark could wield it. The Night King might have been the last one wielding it, the sword disappearing with him.

[aeverett]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:10 AM, Canon Claude said:

Tywin had a lot of nerve to not only steal Ice for himself, but also melt it down to make two swords. That sets a very  dangerous precedent for any house moving forward. 

Tywin didn't steal Ice.  From his point of view, Ned Stark was a traitor who spread lies about the rightful king.  Remember, Tywin doesn't believe the incest rumors.  He genuinely believes that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were fathered by Robert, and that Ned was just trying to  prevent a Lannister take over of power once Robert died and his half Lannister son was on the throne.  Ned knew that the real power behind King Joffrey would be House Lannister and so he lied about incest and bastardy to prevent that.  That makes all Ned's holdings the crowns and as Joffrey's Hand, Tywin's to dispose of on behalf of the king.  

What's more, Tywin doesn't melt down the sword until Robb, Bran, and Rickon are dead (or presumed dead in Bran and Rickon's cases).   That wipes out the legitimate male line of Ned Stark, and Sansa, Ned's rightful heir after her brothers, was married to a Lannister.  That puts control of her property into the hands of her husband, and Tywin is the head of her husband's house.   It's still her property, but not her decision what happens with it.   There again Tywin would have a claim to reforging the sword.   

Westerosi law sucks, but as far as Tywin knew he was acting in accord with it.  Yes, he wanted a Valyrian Steel sword, but he didn't steal Ice.  He acquired it lawfully.  You can't steal lawfully.

Edited October 26, 2023 by aeverett
typos

[Alden Rothack]

10 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Tywin didn't steal Ice.  From his point of view, Ned Stark was a traitor who spread lies about the rightful king.  Remember, Tywin doesn't believe the incest rumors.  He genuinely believes that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were fathered by Robert, and that Ned was just trying to  prevent a Lannister take over of power once Robert died and his half Lannister son was on the throne.  Ned knew that the real power behind King Joffrey would be House Lannister and so he lied about incest and bastardy to prevent that.  That makes all Ned's holdings the crowns and as Joffrey's Hand, Tywin's to dispose of on behalf of the king.  

What's more, Tywin doesn't melt down the sword until Robb, Bran, and Rickon are dead (or presumed dead in Bran and Rickon's cases).   That wipes out the legitimate male line of Ned Stark, and Sansa, Ned's rightful heir after her brothers, was married to a Lannister.  That puts control of her property into the hands of her husband, and Tywin is the head of her husband's house.   It's still her property, but not her decision what happens with it.   There again Tywin would have a claim to reforging the sword.   

Westerosi law sucks, but as far as Tywin knew he was acting in accord with it.  Yes, he wanted a Valyrian Steel sword, but he didn't steal Ice.  He acquired it lawfully.  You can't steal lawfully.

Actually destruction of heirlooms absolutely can be illegal even if you legally posess them, which is what Tywin does

Had he given Ice to Tyrion or more likely Jaime to weld on his behalf that would be legal

[Alester Florent]

On 3/22/2023 at 1:22 AM, LindsayLohan said:

Oh, definitely. But the length of Ice, in Ned’s hands… at some point the tip is dragging or getting stuck in the ground, and Ned is getting killed by some random jabroni. It’s absurdly large, and Ned isn’t. 

It is no bigger than a historical zweihander, in fact probably not much longer than a longsword*, and they were effective weapons. Zweihanders do require a different technique to use, though: arguably more of a polearm than a typical sword.

*I have noted before that GRRM seems to be in full D&D mode with his sword nomenclature: when he says longsword, he means what we now call an arming sword, I think.