Was the alliance, STAB formed for benevolent or malicious reasons?

[maesternewton]

The is a popular theory that due to "Southern Ambitions", Rickard Stark betrothed Brandon to Catelyn and Lyanna to Robert, allying the North with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. That by having Ned and Robert fostered at the Eyrie, they were cementing a friendship thereby allying with the Vale. 

Creating the STAB alliance; Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon.

1. Was it created for benevolent or malicious reasons? 

2. What were each of the lords thinking when they betrothed their children? What were their goals?

 

[Curled Finger]

Welcome @maesternewton, you made me laugh with the STAB alliance bit.  Cute.  

The alliance was neither benevolent nor malicious.   It was responsive and defensive.  Rule under King Aerys II was hard and unfair and subject to the whims of a madman with unscrupulous advisors.  When a proud crook like Tywin Lannister quits on a guy that powerful, you know something is really wrong with his business model.   I think the idea was to create a united front against unfair practices against their regions likely in places like taxes, commerce and maybe rulings.  This is a majority of the Seven Kingdoms, after all.  Dorne is a reluctant member of the realm despite marital ties and the Iron Islands will take any excuse for rebellion and raiding.  What's left if there is war, which there was...The Reach and Crownlands.  Dorne showed up for the party on the side of the crown but the king had to take his own daughter in law and grandchildren hostage to ensure their loyalty.   The only hold out, the Westerlands, showed their hand late in the game, but they too were shopping marriages with the Martells and House Tully prior to the rebellion.  

Their aim is hard for me to pin down.  Targaryens back to Rhaenys and Visenya placed a lot of importance on arranging marriages.  It later became very important to intermarry with other noble houses which they thought was great.  Who doesn't want royal blood, right?  STAB seems to recoil from that idea, refusing to accept a royal marriage or the crown's edicts as to whom their children would marry.   I don't know that the Targs did that.  In our world it wasn't uncommon for people to ask permission of the king or queen to marry.  Could be they were tired of working with people who ignored them or constantly gave them too little while other regions enjoyed more.  Perhaps an alliance independent of the man allowed them greater freedom and profit.  

The fathers were not the only active marriage shoppers.  There were only fathers in the case of the Tullys and Starks but Johanna Lannister and Princess Martell (Doran & Oberyn's Mom) were big movers and shakers sending and hosting kids in hopes of making matches.   Doesn't look like anyone wanted to marry the Tyrell brats, Viserys Targaryen or Balon Greyjoy's strapping lads...or brothers.  

Edited May 10, 2023 by Curled Finger
after thought

[Lord Varys]

There is no such alliance.

[maesternewton]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no such alliance.

Whether you call it an alliance or not. 3 great houses were joined together by marriage with the 4th one being tied in by friendship.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no such alliance.

While it may not have been the intention of the Lords who arranged the initial marriages and wardships, this was literally the alliance that brought down Aerys II.

[Mithras]

There is no such alliance.

[The hairy bear]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The alliance was neither benevolent nor malicious.   It was responsive and defensive.  Rule under King Aerys II was hard and unfair and subject to the whims of a madman with unscrupulous advisors.  When a proud crook like Tywin Lannister quits on a guy that powerful, you know something is really wrong with his business model.   I think the idea was to create a united front against unfair practices against their regions likely in places like taxes, commerce and maybe rulings.

I'm not sure about that. Eddard Stark was sent to the Eyre on 271, during the first decade of Aerys' reign when, according to the World Book, the Seven Kingdoms "prospered greatly". And Brandon and Catelyn were bethroted before the Defiance of Duskendale.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The fathers were not the only active marriage shoppers.  There were only fathers in the case of the Tullys and Starks but Johanna Lannister and Princess Martell (Doran & Oberyn's Mom) were big movers and shakers sending and hosting kids in hopes of making matches.  

The most surprising thing to me is how after centuries of great lords marrying almost exclusively daughters of vassals, all of the sudden they all started marrying abroad.

I think if I were Aerys, I'd get a little paranoid too.

[Moiraine Sedai]

12 hours ago, maesternewton said:

The is a popular theory that due to "Southern Ambitions", Rickard Stark betrothed Brandon to Catelyn and Lyanna to Robert, allying the North with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. That by having Ned and Robert fostered at the Eyrie, they were cementing a friendship thereby allying with the Vale. 

Creating the STAB alliance; Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon.

1. Was it created for benevolent or malicious reasons? 
 

Malicious. Treasonous. Those families could have been attempting to put Robert on the throne. 

12 hours ago, maesternewton said:

2. What were each of the lords thinking when they betrothed their children? What were their goals?

 

To create an unbreakable bond of blood among the conspiring families. The plan was treason from the beginning. It was provocative and showed a lack of respect for the ruling Targaryen family. Rickard, Brandon, Robert, Jon, Ned, and Hoster are all dead.  Only Jon got to live to an old age. Some justice at least happened. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure about that. Eddard Stark was sent to the Eyre on 271, during the first decade of Aerys' reign when, according to the World Book, the Seven Kingdoms "prospered greatly". And Brandon and Catelyn were bethroted before the Defiance of Duskendale.

The most surprising thing to me is how after centuries of great lords marrying almost exclusively daughters of vassals, all of the sudden they all started marrying abroad.

I think if I were Aerys, I'd get a little paranoid too.

We know there is the combat buddies element to the connection between the older men involved here.  Sending Ned and Robert to the Eyre sounds like a good idea, but seemed like a huge move to me.  While prospered greatly may have been exactly what the realm was doing the STAB members may have seen the proverbial writing on the wall.   I'm throwing darts here.  I get stuck with  the Tully/Lannister marriage not coming to fruition.  Seems to me anyone would want their second daughter married offf to  the future Lord of Casterly Rock.  Hoster could puff up like a big chicken with all of his children in mighty positions.  Wonder who withdrew from that particular proposition?   Still seems to me that Aerys and Tywin allowed the  minor Lord of Storm's End to end up without their protection or influence if those are the right words.   

When I think about the intermarrying Robert's affection for Ned materializes, as he does seem to consider Ned with more love than his blood brothers.  Maybe that was the point behind it all.  These men, Arryn, Rickard and Hoster were close and wanted their children to experience the exchange of culture and the bonds they shared.  Seems to have worked in some of the arrangements.  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Malicious. Treasonous. Those families could have been attempting to put Robert on the throne. 

To create an unbreakable bond of blood among the conspiring families. The plan was treason from the beginning. It was provocative and showed a lack of respect for the ruling Targaryen family. Rickard, Brandon, Robert, Jon, Ned, and Hoster are all dead.  Only Jon got to live to an old age. Some justice at least happened. 

Hoster Tully outlived Jon Arryn, not by much granted, but he was an old man, too. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Malicious. Treasonous. Those families could have been attempting to put Robert on the throne.

Where is the evidence there were any sinister intentions? And no, Barbrey is not good evidence. And no, trying to protect yourself through marriage is not evil and is standard practice.

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The plan was treason from the beginning.

Proof?

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It was provocative and showed a lack of respect for the ruling Targaryen family.

Oh, how DARE one noble family marry another of equal rank in a feudal society!? Without waiting for the mad inbred to approve or more likely try to kill them because he's a nutjob not fit to sit on a toilet.

[The Commentator]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no such alliance.

Too much for coincidence. The fathers and their children look guilty to me. Richard and the other elders were lured to Kingslanding because they were a threat. Brandon was forced to talk and confessed.  

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

The fathers and their children look guilty to me.

Of course they do. Because they have the surname 'Stark' or are Stark associates.

2 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Brandon was forced to talk and confessed.  

Where in the books does it say this?

[maesternewton]

16 hours ago, Mithras said:

There is no such alliance.

Okay.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure about that. Eddard Stark was sent to the Eyre on 271, during the first decade of Aerys' reign when, according to the World Book, the Seven Kingdoms "prospered greatly". And Brandon and Catelyn were bethroted before the Defiance of Duskendale.

Perhaps Aegon V's reforms caused the lords to become concerned on royal overreach.

They might have believed that the crown was attempting to infringe upon their noble rights so they formed an alliance to potentially block such an attempt.

Or maybe Rickard Stark was influenced by his Maester to form such an alliance in order to grow House Stark's power.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The most surprising thing to me is how after centuries of great lords marrying almost exclusively daughters of vassals, all of the sudden they all started marrying abroad.

I think if I were Aerys, I'd get a little paranoid too.

Bingo! 

It has been never done.

Perhaps a Stark would marry an Arryn, but a Stark-Baratheon, Stark-Tully and Tully Arryn marriages in one decade. 

Too much to be a coincidence. 

[Alester Florent]

The name that never gets mentioned in all this and which immediately throws doubt on the conspiracy theory is Steffon Baratheon. He must have been involved in the decision to send Robert to ward in the Vale, and he's also best mates with Aerys and Tywin. So that the whole thing was an anti-Aerys conspiracy from the outset seems unlikely.

At the heart of it there are three agreements made:

• Brandon to marry Cat
• Ned and Robert to ward in the Vale
• Petyr Baelish to ward at Riverrun

The marriage between Robert and Lyanna was brokered later, and came because of the established friendship between Ned and Bob, not as part of the original deal. Likewise, Jon Arryn's marriage to Lysa only came once war had effectively broken out: Lysa is pretty clear that Hoster was trying to offload his less desirable daughter and pushed for Jon to take her as part of the alliance agreement that was by then very necessary.

The betrothal between Brandon and Cat is unusual but not outlandish. Until that point, Starks had pretty much only married (for 200 years or so) other northern houses, Royces and Blackwoods. But there's no particular reason why they shouldn't marry into houses from other kingdoms especially if Rickard didn't like what was on offer in the North (soz, Barbrey) and Hoster was enthusiastically touting the merits of his eldest daughter. Maybe he just felt that the North had been culturally isolated too long and needed some fresh blood and/or more contact with the south. Maybe Hoster was looking for a powerful ally to help keep Walder Frey in line. It's very speculative and not particularly suspicious.

The way wardships work, they seem in some instances to be virtual hostage situations and at other times just a way to build relationships between families. The distinction between warding and squiring is also not entirely clear all the time. But great lords' sons warding with each other doesn't seem that unusual even if it hasn't been developed much in the history books. In any event I don't think there's any particular reason to be suspicious that Ned's warding with Jon Arryn is an attempt to build a traitors' alliance against the crown any more than Theon's warding with Ned is an attempt to forge an anti-royal alliance between the Starks and Greyjoys. In fact having Ned at the Eyrie and thus a hostage of sorts is the sort of thing that might help keep Rickard in line if Aerys believes Jon Arryn is reliable (which he clearly does up to a point) and this whole thing might even have been Steffon's idea to that end.

The Baelish thing, who knows what he was doing in Riverrun or how Jon Arryn swung that for him. But he was a boy of no particular political importance, so I don't think too much can be read into it.

One curiosity in all this, mind, is Brandon's party when he rode to King's Landing. Other than his own squire, none of Brandon's companions were from the North, being from the Vale or the Riverlands. So even Brandon, who fostered in the North, clearly had close friends in the southern regions.

Remember too that this is a period where there is a massive great house marriage carousel going on. It's not just these four houses marrying into each other (and, as above, some of those marriages were not part of the initial setup anyway) but the Lannisters and Martells and Rhaegar himself are also in the mix. The Tyrells' kids were out of sync but I wouldn't be too surprised if we learned that Quellon was trying to find a mainland spouse for Aeron or Urrigon at the same time either.

In any case I think way too much weight is being placed on Barbrey's line here and I don't think there was necessarily anything sinister in the original set-up between the four houses in question. While this did later result in an alliance, that alliance was also created largely reactively in response to Aerys, who by his actions had already effectively declared war on houses Stark, Baratheon and Arryn (note he had executed Jon Arryn's heir along with Brandon) so it was only really the Tullys who had a choice in the matter.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Desiring Nectarines

[frenin]

17 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The most surprising thing to me is how after centuries of great lords marrying almost exclusively daughters of vassals, all of the sudden they all started marrying abroad.

I think if I were Aerys, I'd get a little paranoid too.

The Great Lords barely ever interact with each other unless there's a civil war, they all remain in their country states.

The war of the Nine Penny Kings offered a unique opportunity for most of the Great Lords to bond together like they never had before or after, it's also very weird that Great Lords are friends at all but during that time Tywin and Steffon were best friends, Steffon, Jon Arryn and Rickard became war buddies etc.

I don't think it is weird as it is a unique set of circumstances happening at once. Given Aerys' ties with both Steffon and Tywin, he could have easily put himself and his son at the center of this new situationship, alas...

 

7 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Perhaps a Stark would marry an Arryn, but a Stark-Baratheon, Stark-Tully and Tully Arryn marriages in one decade. 

Why people act like those were the only pacts going around?

Elia and Oberyn were supposed to marry Cersei and or Jaime, then Elia was proposed by Baelor Hightower, Jaime and Lysa were to marry and Cersei was being saved for one of the princes.

 

 

[SeanF]

It may all have been completely innocent, but a less paranoid ruler than Aerys would have been concerned.

IMHO, it was Egg who put the Targaryens in danger, with his reform programme that the nobility pushed back against. Egg was considered a “tyrant”, by many lords. I do see these marriage alliances as creating a power block to oppose the crown, and to defend aristocratic “liberties”, even if the overthrow of the dynasty was not contemplated at this stage.

None of that justifies Aerys’ cruelty, or Rhaegar’s stupidity, however.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It may all have been completely innocent, but a less paranoid ruler than Aerys would have been concerned.

IMHO, it was Egg who put the Targaryens in danger, with his reform programme that the nobility pushed back against. Egg was considered a “tyrant”, by many lords. I do see these marriage alliances as creating a power block to oppose the crown, and to defend aristocratic “liberties”, even if the overthrow of the dynasty was not contemplated at this stage.

None of that justifies Aerys’ cruelty, or Rhaegar’s stupidity, however.

Dunno...

Tywin wanted to marry the Tullys and the Targaryens

 

Robert asked for Lyanna's hand because he couldn't ask for Ned's and the Martells and the twins were betrothed because Joanna and the Princess of Dorne were good pals

The only betrothal we don't have a reason to yet is that of Cat and Brandon, that's about it.

[maesternewton]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Dunno...

Tywin wanted to marry the Tullys and the Targaryens

Tywin is the type of person to play both sides.

Perhaps he saw the growing unintentional which would be a threat and wanted to join in.

Or he wanted to nit it in the bud by marrying Cersei to Rhaegar and Jaime to Lysa.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Why people act like those were the only pacts going around?

Elia and Oberyn were supposed to marry Cersei and or Jaime, then Elia was proposed by Baelor Hightower, Jaime and Lysa were to marry and Cersei was being saved for one of the princes.

I can't remember where I read it, but the was a theory that stated Dorne is dying or undergoing rapid desertification so the Princess of Dorne was perhaps looking for alliances to eventually seek help?

9 hours ago, Desiring Nectarines said:

The way wardships work, they seem in some instances to be virtual hostage situations and at other times just a way to build relationships between families. The distinction between warding and squiring is also not entirely clear all the time. But great lords' sons warding with each other doesn't seem that unusual even if it hasn't been developed much in the history books. In any event I don't think there's any particular reason to be suspicious that Ned's warding with Jon Arryn is an attempt to build a traitors' alliance against the crown any more than Theon's warding with Ned is an attempt to forge an anti-royal alliance between the Starks and Greyjoys. In fact having Ned at the Eyrie and thus a hostage of sorts is the sort of thing that might help keep Rickard in line if Aerys believes Jon Arryn is reliable (which he clearly does up to a point) and this whole thing might even have been Steffon's idea to that end.

You bring up good points.

Perhaps due to their friendships formed during the ninepenny war, Robert was fostered at the Eyrie.

 

[astarkchoice]

Sometimes we forget the web/allaince  could have been even more that it was

Jamie was supposed to marry lysa tully

Tyrion was offered  to the tullys (as jamie had joined the kg) and rejected.....we know tywinnalso offered him to the royces and 

Hoster wanted the blackfish tied to the redwynes.

The martells workining counter to  all that wanted either jamie or cersei.